Fiery SC lays down the law for spy

[Solomon2]

the general PPC doesnot deal with Armed forces, Army Act does !!

Thanks, I try to learn something new every day!

As Dawn discusses the provisions of the Army Acts (1952, 1998, and 2007) used to justify military detentions "violate constitutional principles". link They may serve to dominate Baluchistan but they cannot be seen as an accountable system of justice, can they?

Perhaps a constructive course of action would be a mass movement to subject the military to civilian oversight by amending the Constitution to subordinate the military court to the SC and install parliamentary-approved and accountable inspector generals throughout. Yet so many politicians see their power as secondary to the generals won't it take another mass movement on the streets for this to work?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Why not spend money on better police forensics so prosecutors actually have evidence?

From what I've read Pakistan has had a problem at least since the days of British rule with powerful "feudals" exerting influence on police to release their pet criminals, or distant cousins appearing in court as "witnesses" to testify in favor of the defendant.

So it isn't clear to me how different laws would help matters. Even better forensics won't help if police and judges accept bribes. To cure such a diseased body politic don't you need cultural reform?

check out the link that Bilalhaider has linked about why we cant convict anyone. http://www.dawn.com/2012/02/29/sectarian-killers-thrive-under-a-dysfunctional-legal-system.html

I agree with your observations by the way

 

[SQ8]

Sometimes I do agree with the optimists..
Things are going to get better in this country in the next two or three years.

 

[Leader]

Thanks, I try to learn something new every day!

As Dawn discusses the provisions of the Army Acts (1952, 1998, and 2007) used to justify military detentions "violate constitutional principles". link They may serve to dominate Baluchistan but they cannot be seen as an accountable system of justice, can they?

Perhaps a constructive course of action would be a mass movement to subject the military to civilian oversight by amending the Constitution to subordinate the military court to the SC and install parliamentary-approved and accountable inspector generals throughout. Yet so many politicians see their power as secondary to the generals won't it take another mass movement on the streets for this to work?

the problems are not constitutional or weakness of laws, but implementation of these laws in their respective circles... however, the current powerful CJ is making an exceptional move by taking these cases on the basis of basic human rights which every citizen holds... under normal situation this is not required, as Army laws are satisfactory if implemented.

If CJ sets a precedence in this regard, it would be a great achievement with respect to our struggle for civil supremacy, thus far CJ has not been able to call DG ISI or MI to court like he was able to call DG FIA, PM and others to court.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Sometimes I do agree with the optimists..
Things are going to get better in this country in the next two or three years.

this is my understanding too

what our country is going through is like a patient under a surgical knife, it is painful now but its removing the tumour and puss (hypocrisy, bigotry is being exposed and discussed openly) the silent majority is no longer silent and is openly challenging the state institutions including the armed forces. the armed forces are opening up more too explaining themselves to parliament and the justice.


indeed we got long way to go and there are still a lot of issues but I see we are moving in the right direction and not pulling things under the rug as if there is no issue. we have some very good quality writers and analysts who are not making any exceptions when they write or talk over the tv channels so the usual phrase of Pakistan


Saaab Acha hay " All is good and Dandy"


is not accepted any more.

 

[Pfpilot]

this is my understanding too

what our country is going through is like a patient under a surgical knife, it is painful now but its removing the tumour and puss (hypocrisy, bigotry is being exposed and discussed openly) the silent majority is no longer silent and is openly challenging the state institutions including the armed forces. the armed forces are opening up more too explaining themselves to parliament and the justice.


indeed we got long way to go and there are still a lot of issues but I see we are moving in the right direction and not pulling things under the rug as if there is no issue. we have some very good quality writers and analysts who are not making any exceptions when they write or talk over the tv channels so the usual phrase of Pakistan


Saaab Acha hay " All is good and Dandy"


is not accepted any more.

As much as I agree with what you're saying; to further your analogy, the problem is: can the patient survive the procedure? Given enough time, every county can figure it out, as the political cycle will eventually, even accidentally allow, the occasional good person into office and allow him to chip away at the problems.

The issue Pakistan faces is: of it's ability to prevent itself from splintering into smaller regional hubs. The problems our people face today, put our very fabric of society and culture under question. Our laws have been found inadequate, our military unaccountable, and our religion and culture skewed and desecrated by extremists. It would make any man question his most deepest patriotism. If we are to survive, Pakistanis of all sects and ethnicity need to work together, instead of casting doubt on each other. There are bigger enemies to be dealt with, whether societal or geographical.

 

[killerx]

this should have been done very long time ago SC will keep doing its work fairly untill CJ iftkhar cd in suprem court after that cant stop the revenge of the isi and mi

 

[Solomon2]

the problems are not constitutional or weakness of laws, but implementation of these laws in their respective circles...Army laws are satisfactory if implemented.

I see Pakistan as suffering from additional weaknesses:

1) Prosecutors are not elected or appointed by elected officials but part of a bureaucracy that can choose to ignore the popular will for many years and not pursue cases outside its self-interest.
2) Proceedings are unintelligible to defendants and plaintiffs who cannot understand English.
3) There is no grand jury system at all, something that can aid people when law enforcement is weak and defend them from malicious prosecutors when law enforcement is strong. (True, most Commonwealth countries don't have it, but law-and-order works much better in those countries.)

Regardless of the merits of the CJ, he is just one man. You can't continue to put your faith in him, especially since he can only choose paths to set precedents that the laws and Constitution permit. Changing such things is a matter of politics, not judicial activism, and given the lack of an enlightened elite I can guess it will only happen through people power - men and women on the street.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I see Pakistan as suffering from additional weaknesses:

1) Prosecutors are not elected or appointed by elected officials but part of a bureaucracy that can choose to ignore the popular will for many years and not pursue cases outside its self-interest.
2) Proceedings are unintelligible to defendants and plaintiffs who cannot understand English.
3) There is no grand jury system at all, something that can aid people when law enforcement is weak and defend them from malicious prosecutors when law enforcement is strong. (True, most Commonwealth countries don't have it, but law-and-order works much better in those countries.)

Regardless of the merits of the CJ, he is just one man. You can't continue to put your faith in him, especially since he can only choose paths to set precedents that the laws and Constitution permit. Changing such things is a matter of politics, not judicial activism, and given the lack of an enlightened elite I can guess it will only happen through people power - men and women on the street.

Solomon you got it the other way round

the conviction is very hard or rare . the defendants normally walk free due to intimidation, family pressure on the claimants and pathetic prosecution.
if the judgement is passed, the judge has to flee the place. recently the judge who convicted the killer of our governor has to leave the country out of fear of death.

 

[Respect4Respect01]

Cheers for the CJ and supreme court.

No body is above the law!

now they should arrest gilani and zardari too, they are not above the law either.

 

[ace of spade]

Missing persons: Fiery SC lays down the law for spy agencies

By Azam Khan
Published: March 2, 2012

ISLAMABAD:
An unforgiving Supreme Court has put its foot down — with a scathing warning and a diatribe against the country’s top spy agencies.

Expressing dissatisfaction with the report submitted by the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) and the Military Intelligence (MI) in the Adiala jail missing prisoners’ case, the apex court gave out a stern reprimand on Thursday.

“Do not assume in your head that you [ISI and MI] are superior and others [civilians] are inferior,” said Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry. “You are not above the law.”

Headed by Chief Justice Chaudhry, the three-member bench said that the spy agencies, in their responses to the court, made no attempt to explain under which laws civilians were picked up and kept in detention for more than a year.

“Who gave you the right to hound people?” thundered the chief justice at the ISI and MI’s counsel, Raja Irshad.

“You are extremely insensitive to the human pain and loss that the families of the missing persons continue to bear because of your actions.

“The allegation that you [ISI and MI] abduct people and their abandoned bodies surface after days is an extremely serious one,” said Chief Justice Chaudhry.

“After reading your poorly-drafted reply, I wondered whether we are working against the country’s interests here. As much as you consider yourself to be loyal to this country, perhaps we are more loyal than you.”

Underscoring the controversial role of the agencies in Balochistan, where hundreds of men have gone missing, the chief justice said: “You’re an arsonist. You have set Balochistan on fire.

“We asked you time and again and you avoided the truth. Are we here to listen to your stories?
“Even if these people had attacked the General Headquarters (GHQ), it was imperative to produce evidence against them for a fair trial. You are not above the law; you must go by the book.”
The chief justice added that the “insensitive” agencies have become the “biggest violators” of the country’s laws.

The defence counsel said that the authorities in the ISI and MI “are considering this matter seriously as this is a burning issue”.

Pointing out that “foreign elements” were involved in fuelling terrorism in Balochistan, he said that the agencies cannot work with their “eyes closed”. In reply, the chief justice remarked that whatever the agencies do should be done within the parameters of the law.

The court, however, voiced satisfaction over the Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa (K-P) chief secretary’s report on the health conditions of prisoners. The report covered inmate health, improvement in their condition and how they were being accommodated.

Tariq Asad, the lawyer for missing prisoners, was told by the court to invoke the available procedures to secure the release of prisoners and the hearing was adjourned for 14 days.

Seven of the eleven surviving detainees – accused of attacking the General Headquarters and the ISI’s Hamza Camp base – were picked up from the Adiala prison by intelligence agencies after they had been acquitted of the charges by the court.

Four of the 11 detainees died in the custody of the ISI and MI and on February 13 – more than a year and a half after being picked up – seven of them were presented before the Supreme Court after the two agencies were served notices to explain the circumstances behind the deaths of the four prisoners.

The mother of two of the deceased also passed away recently, reportedly due to heart failure after witnessing the condition of her remaining son.

After the hearing Irshad told reporters outside the court that collecting evidence in terrorism cases was very time consuming, which was why the men had been held.

“The phenomena of terrorism is very recent and there is an urgent need for new legislation,” he said.

“When they were in custody, the army did not want to do a fake or mock trial,” he said. (With additional input from AFP)

(Read: Missing persons case)

Published in The Express Tribune, March 2nd, 2012.

whats your interest in Pakistan?

 

[Leader]

I see Pakistan as suffering from additional weaknesses:

1) Prosecutors are not elected or appointed by elected officials but part of a bureaucracy that can choose to ignore the popular will for many years and not pursue cases outside its self-interest.
2) Proceedings are unintelligible to defendants and plaintiffs who cannot understand English.
3) There is no grand jury system at all, something that can aid people when law enforcement is weak and defend them from malicious prosecutors when law enforcement is strong. (True, most Commonwealth countries don't have it, but law-and-order works much better in those countries.)

Regardless of the merits of the CJ, he is just one man. You can't continue to put your faith in him, especially since he can only choose paths to set precedents that the laws and Constitution permit. Changing such things is a matter of politics, not judicial activism, and given the lack of an enlightened elite I can guess it will only happen through people power - men and women on the street.

Elected in not necessary prerequisite, like I said its their functionality with their respective circles, but is influenced by overlapping PR as pointed out by Irfan B.

in my opinion the Shariff system is not workable in Pakistan, the shariff would only be a tool in the hands of the powerful, so called elected representatives. even without their election, police is a tool in hands of these elected rep. So even if we get representative system introduced in the our Steel structure, its like to rust. I can understand by your democratic standards the 100 year old English system is rotten, but acutely in our situation, not having it is like turning Somalia. In our situation its survival that is more important than justice.

as for reforms, constitution is more or less a fair deal, apart from some religious biasness. secondly the uprising from the masses will lead to chaos, not creative chaos, did you ever hear of a "movement" led by factory workers for their rights? they dont have the necessary condition and direction to know what their rights are, here in cooperate sector you are to work from 9am to 9 pm, a saturday off is considered as 2 days off. they dont even know the Chartist movement moto that their socio-economic rights can only be preserved through securing their political rights... and nearly half of them actually believe in dictatorship or some sort of imaginary caliphate with an Islamic economic system to be the cure of their ills...

*(by the way grand jury system is our old regional system, that was overthrown by the British system to establish their imperialist rule)

I hope for creative chaos, read my signature statement

 

[Donatello]

In Pak , rule n law run of those who has bigger, like TTP writs run, Taliban writs run their area and PAK army fits run in area which their strong...

Your sentence is so inarticulate.....and why the hell are you even here...MODS?

 

[Solomon2]

as for reforms, constitution is more or less a fair deal, apart from some religious biasness.

That is a VERY BIG exception. In Pakistan one can't criticize Islam itself, correct?

"The test of democracy is freedom to criticize." - David Ben-Gurion

As far as I can tell any restrictions on free debate can become the foundation for destructive tyranny. Such restrictions don't have to be religious in nature at all.

For example, in 1800 the U.S. had the most freedom-loving society in existence. In the 1830s there was a slave revolt and most slave states imposed severe (and unconstitutional) restrictions on abolitionist propaganda. These restrictions became a kind of loyalty test, shaping education and politics, that over time radicalized the populace and built the foundation for the U.S. Civil War a generation later.