Falling prey to ‘Halal’ investments

[livingdead]

No Hindu? I don't know which world you are living in. Just here recently I met many Malwari Hindus here who do practice. Also I spend some time in UK where Christians were practicing it. Even in USA it's close to impossible to stop such thing, since Jews Lobby is too strong.

Also, in Islamic system when you are partner, then not only by money you have to practically involve into the business. And one guy can't involve into many businesses practically. So how exactly He will grow?

Please Also tell us what is 15% of 10 Billion?

if the ratio is by how much you are involved in business why would anybody part with his money, a rich guy will not go into partnership and there wont be as many enterprenures.

Every business has risks, the guy who brings more money takes higher risk, if he is not compensated for that, why would he invest.

about hindus you talk about they are tiny minorty among hindus. Of course some christians in europe do it, but it was never a big thing here, like US where it is actually decreasing among christians. (previously most american christians used to do it)

 

[Fracker]

if the ratio is by how much you are involved in business why would anybody part with his money, a rich guy will not go into partnership and there wont be as many enterprenures.

there will be many enterprises with many different owners/partners rather then One owner for many enterprises. and the Zakat system will ensure 2.5% is being given to poors. So they will also grow.

There was a time in Islamic era, when people were unable to find poors in Arab cities, and they had to travels miles away from their cities just to give Zakat. This practice is still being followed, but Capitalist system has taken over on Islamic Business system.

Edit: Still if you want to invest, then you can buy house/land/property and rent it out. Main thing is, investment in tangible things not in something in air.

 

[livingdead]

there will be many enterprises with many different owners/partners rather then One owner for many enterprises. and the Zakat system will ensure 2.5% is being given to poors. So they will also grow.

There was a time in Islamic era, when people were unable to find poors in Arab cities, and they had to travels miles away from their cities just to give Zakat. This practice is still being followed, but Capitalist system has taken over on Islamic Business system.

No it will be exactly opposite. If I am rich, I will keep my money and focus on only 1 business I can have all shares of. If I am poor, I will be starved of investment as no rich person can afford to take risk (his money) but not as much ownership.

So basically its against human nature. If it applies to a world when there were few poors, then it definitely does not apply to today's world. Even during those period, a rich will travel far off to give zakat, but not for partnership.

So as poor enterprenure all I got is 2.5 percent.

 

[Fracker]

No it will be exactly opposite. If I am rich, I will keep my money and focus on only 1 business I can have all shares of. If I am poor, I will be starved of investment as no rich person can afford to take risk (his money) but not as much ownership.

So basically its against human nature. If it applies to a world when there were few poors, then it definitely does not apply to today's world. Even during those period, a rich will travel far off to give zakat, but not for partnership.

So as poor enterprenure all I got is 2.5 percent.

btw What is poor entrepreneur? Zakat system is any money laying useless for one year. 2.5 % zakat had to be paid. 2.5% isn't the profit, profit can goes to anything.

So If you are rich, and you can't afford to run more business, then you will have spare money. And on that you have to pay 2.5% Zakat to poors. So more spare money more Zakat. I hope that clarify things.

 

[livingdead]

btw What is poor entrepreneur? Zakat system is any money laying useless for one year. 2.5 % zakat had to be paid. 2.5% isn't the profit, profit can goes to anything.

So If you are rich, and you can't afford to run more business, then you will have spare money. And on that you have to pay 2.5% Zakat to poors. So more spare money more Zakat. I hope that clarify things.

No, you are talking about two issues here. Zakat is donation, you dont expect any profit from it. Where as in any business you expect profit.
How can I start a business just with zakat money that I receive?

From a rich man's pov suppose he has 100x money, he will invest his own business and invest heavily. Rest of money he will keep and give 2.5 percent in zakat on it. Instead of investing in 5 businesses 20x each of which he is minority shareholder simply because his effort will be divided.

Ultimately the rich man will have last laugh. Compare that to a bank where everybody keeps money and gets a share of income from investment. Rich or poor.

 

[BATMAN]

In 1998 Pakistan intelligence agencies, uncovered a network of Mullahs working as Imam of Mosques in Islamabad but were actually hindus and RAW operatives.

This sounds like a similar case... RAW always need cash in Pakistan for terror activities and other than running under ground gangs they run all sorts of fraud business, ranging from property to finance to democracy campaign... gullible Pakistanis fall pray to the scums.

 

[Fracker]

No, you are talking about two issues here. Zakat is donation, you dont expect any profit from it. Where as in any business you expect profit.
How can I start a business just with zakat money that I receive?

From a rich man's pov suppose he has 100x money, he will invest his own business and invest heavily. Rest of money he will keep and give 2.5 percent in zakat on it. Instead of investing in 5 businesses 20x each of which he is minority shareholder simply because his effort will be divided.

Ultimately the rich man will have last laugh. Compare that to a bank where everybody keeps money and gets a share of income from investment. Rich or poor.

lol... I am talking about what we did see in past. You are talking about assumptions. No business can grow upto bigger. Bigger business means more effort. Also, more money freely laying for more then 1 year. Anyhow, it's upto you to think how ever you want. But facts are different. Islamic System take good out of both capitalist and communism. But in any case business needs to be tangible makes it not to grow too large..

 

[livingdead]

lol... I am talking about what we did see in past. You are talking about assumptions. No business can grow upto bigger. Bigger business means more effort. Also, more money freely laying for more then 1 year. Anyhow, it's upto you to think how ever you want. But facts are different. Islamic System take good out of both capitalist and communism. But in any case business needs to be tangible makes it not to grow too large..

I did not understand a word you just said... which means its perfect opportunity to stop arguing..

 

[ice_man]

islamic way will ensure rich remains rich and poor remains poor. If I am rich, I will be dominant partner always and will have lion's share.
If I am poor I would rather go to a bank and get money at nominal interest (even 15 percent is acceptable) and do my business. Why would I be dominated by others, I will have full control.

Banks will not butt in my business, they are happy if I pay their interest. If my business grows, the interst is nothing, its small change for me.

No hindu practices circumcision, and not many christians do in europe. There is a movement against it in america now, considerably less people do now than before.

IF YOU DON'T KNOW SOMETHING DON'T COMMENT!

in islam we are supposed to give FITRA,SADQA & ZAKAAT! Islamic laws make sure that NO ONE REMAINS poor. because those who are poor will be helped by other muslims or their family members!

so don't say "islam makes sure rich remain rich & poor remain poor"!! ALSO REMEMBER OUR PROPHET and his family (ALI,FATIMA etc) never got rich. so in life "RICH" is not the purpose the purpose is to live in world like a traveller & prepare for after life.



& as for circumcision islam is adamant and as a part of a pillar of faith is CLEANLINESS! so circumcision as well as taking regular showers,cutting nails combing hair shaving pubic hair is part of faith. & we believe IN cleanliness unlike you. So its a good thing and science has proved it NOW after 1400 years!

 

[livingdead]

IF YOU DON'T KNOW SOMETHING DON'T COMMENT!

in islam we are supposed to give FITRA,SADQA & ZAKAAT! Islamic laws make sure that NO ONE REMAINS poor. because those who are poor will be helped by other muslims or their family members!

so don't say "islam makes sure rich remain rich & poor remain poor"!! ALSO REMEMBER OUR PROPHET and his family (ALI,FATIMA etc) never got rich. so in life "RICH" is not the purpose the purpose is to live in world like a traveller & prepare for after life.



& as for circumcision islam is adamant and as a part of a pillar of faith is CLEANLINESS! so circumcision as well as taking regular showers,cutting nails combing hair shaving pubic hair is part of faith. & we believe IN cleanliness unlike you. So its a good thing and science has proved it NOW after 1400 years!

you are wrong on both counts... please read my earlier posts. Science now says mass circumcision is totally unnecessary, do it only if you must.
As to why islamic financial system will perpetuate poverty(no poor has ever got rich by donation otherwise africans would have been quite rich). Also its riskier, could have created much bigger troubled (compared to what we saw recently) . If you know so much why dont you comment with arguments.

 

[ice_man]

you are wrong on both counts... please read my earlier posts. Science now says mass circumcision is totally unnecessary, do it only if you must.
As to why islamic financial system will perpetuate poverty(no poor has ever got rich by donation otherwise africans would have been quite rich). Also its riskier, could have created much bigger troubled (compared to what we saw recently) . If you know so much why dont you comment with arguments.

firstly you failed to read my post clearly. I said in islam no one will remain unfed and poor. however, I also said the main AIM OF A MUSLIM is not to accumulate wealth. he is supposed to be "RICH" in the hereafter. and rich in this context is not supposed to be monetary rich. if that was the case our prophet would have made sure he accumulated billions or atleast tell his family members to make billions.

instead he said prepare yourself for the after life.


secondly banking system with interest recently collapsed and hence lead to a recession millions of people around the world who used banks to withdraw loans! lost their houses,jobs,cars etc. so clearly BANKING SYSTEM with interest is proven by the recent recession to be a wrong method.

now coming to your argument about being rich in this world please tell me can a beggar go to a bank and take a out a loan? OFCOURSE NOT! bank gives more to that person who it feels can pay back more. and less and less to those who it feels are riskier or net worth is less.

for example ANIL AMBANI can go and get a billion DOLLAR loan. while if you go you will probably get maximum a million. SO YOUR ARGUMENT OF RICH GET'S RICHER is true for a NON ISLAMIC system.


however, in Islamic system the POOR get's less poorer by getting sadqa,zakat,khiayrat & fitra. in CAPITALISM it clearly says tough its a poor man's mistake he is poor.


and as for circumcision please read this link

Do Circumcision's Health Benefits Outweigh the Risks? - WSJ.com


clearly circumcision has more benefits and less STD chances compared to not doing it. it helps keeps you clean and less infections happen as the link clearly shows.

 

[livingdead]

firstly you failed to read my post clearly. I said in islam no one will remain unfed and poor. however, I also said the main AIM OF A MUSLIM is not to accumulate wealth. he is supposed to be "RICH" in the hereafter. and rich in this context is not supposed to be monetary rich. if that was the case our prophet would have made sure he accumulated billions or atleast tell his family members to make billions.

instead he said prepare yourself for the after life.


secondly banking system with interest recently collapsed and hence lead to a recession millions of people around the world who used banks to withdraw loans! lost their houses,jobs,cars etc. so clearly BANKING SYSTEM with interest is proven by the recent recession to be a wrong method.

now coming to your argument about being rich in this world please tell me can a beggar go to a bank and take a out a loan? OFCOURSE NOT! bank gives more to that person who it feels can pay back more. and less and less to those who it feels are riskier or net worth is less.

for example ANIL AMBANI can go and get a billion DOLLAR loan. while if you go you will probably get maximum a million. SO YOUR ARGUMENT OF RICH GET'S RICHER is true for a NON ISLAMIC system.


however, in Islamic system the POOR get's less poorer by getting sadqa,zakat,khiayrat & fitra. in CAPITALISM it clearly says tough its a poor man's mistake he is poor.


and as for circumcision please read this link

Do Circumcision's Health Benefits Outweigh the Risks? - WSJ.com


clearly circumcision has more benefits and less STD chances compared to not doing it. it helps keeps you clean and less infections happen as the link clearly shows.

do read the circumcision link you gave, it gives both sides of argument, you just read the pro one... its a jewish practice that muslims copied, nothing to do with cleanliness, why would you have beard yet cut finger nails.. lolz
If you have access to clean water in abundance there is no need of circumcision unless you are not into hygene.

About capitalism, it does not say you should not donate. Muslims did not invent donating for charity, those who want can. but by stopping enterprenures from getting loan at cheap rate and having full control of their company you are going against enterprenureship which brings prosperity.

To be fair, its not islam which is wrong, because nobody knew about banks then. Its the people who insist that is the only way who are wrong.

you just gave two extreme examples of begger and ambani, in islamic case nobody with partner with beggar, because islam does not mandate it. they will give some moeny to survive, which means begger will remain begger.

For vast majority cases, banks do give loans to relatively poor people, and take money as deposits from all. That way we all benefit. Nobody new such concept during time islam started.

 

[ice_man]

do read the circumcision link you gave, it gives both sides of argument, you just read the pro one... its a jewish practice that muslims copied, nothing to do with cleanliness, why would you have beard yet cut finger nails.. lolz
If you have access to clean water in abundance there is no need of circumcision unless you are not into hygene.

About capitalism, it does not say you should not donate. Muslims did not invent donating for charity, those who want can. but by stopping enterprenures from getting loan at cheap rate and having full control of their company you are going against enterprenureship which brings prosperity.

To be fair, its not islam which is wrong, because nobody knew about banks then. Its the people who insist that is the only way who are wrong.

you just gave two extreme examples of begger and ambani, in islamic case nobody with partner with beggar, because islam does not mandate it. they will give some moeny to survive, which means begger will remain begger.

For vast majority cases, banks do give loans to relatively poor people, and take money as deposits from all. That way we all benefit. Nobody new such concept during time islam started.

well firstly get one thing cleared JEWS are a branch of muslims that went wrong. Hence any Book sent by ALL MIGHTY has clearly said circumcise.

now as for the link did you read the idiotic AGAINST ARGUMENTS that gave? such as it should be asked and not done at child birth etc. also did you read the PERCENTAGE of STIs it is good against? the drop in STIs is more than 50% please try and justify to me how THAT IS NOT A GOOD THING. read the arguments against circumsion in both my links. THEY are just funny. no solid thing to counter circumcision which clearly decreases STIs and UTIs.


but still I will give you one more link to check. and also read the posts of people under it! before you come back ranting

Circumcision - Advantages and disadvantages - NHS Choices

MAJOR THING ABOUT circumcision is it prevents STIs and UTIs MASSIVELY. and people with foreskin cannot claim that as the study clearly shows. so please try defending something that is NOT PROVEN or has doubts! but when clear studies prove STIS and UTIs are decreased it is a good thing. so doctors recommend early circumcision inorder to avoid complications in a later life due to circumcision.


capitalism doesn't say donate BUT it doesn't ORDER to donate also does it? Islam says make sure your neighbour is taken care of & poor muslims in your society. please tell me how is that not a good thing?


PLEASE TELL ME WHY DO YOU ON PURPOSE leave out parts that I explain and carry on ranting?

clearly the recession of 2008 was due to your claims of "cheap loans" as in sub prime mortages. people who couldn't afford to pay were given loans out of greed. and the whole economy crashed. millions of people lost everything they had why? BECAUSE OF THIS CONCEPT OF CHEAP LOANS to people.

and tell me will a poor man get same amount of loan as ambani? IF NOT then how can you say in islam only rich get richer and poor remain poor. in islam infact its the OPPOSITE like I said POOR don't get poorer. and might even get better off.

tell me one thing can a beggar of the street go to a bank and get a loan in capitalism? can he even think of getting a loan?

and Islamic law is better than modern banking. the law states if an entrepreneur has A GREAT IDEA BUT HAS NO FUNDS. he goes to a muslim and suggests the idea who in turn gives him the MONEY to run the business and BECOMES 50% PARTNER IN HIS BUSINESS. SO PROFIT IS SHARED AND IF LOSS IS HAPPENED NOTHING IS SEIZED. LIKE IN CAPITALISM YOU DECLARE BANKRUPTCY and all your assets are taken away from you. so Islamic FINANCE SYSTEM IS BETTER THAN MODERN CAPITALIST INTEREST BASED SYSTEM.

& FINALLY PLEASE READ THIS WHICH YOU KEEP IGNORING:

in ISLAM YOU ARE NOT TOLD TO BECOME RICH. NEITHER STOPPED FROM BEING RICH. the aim is not MONEY.

 

[livingdead]

@ice_man .. inspite of the positives of circumcision, it is not good enough for mass circumcision of all boys, otherwise NHS or other boards would have encouraged it. Evidently the increase in ability to fend off std is not good enough.
I did not say islam is an ofshoot of judaism, I said they started the practice, and continue to advocate it vociferously in media.

About muslims partnering with others for business, its not mandatory in islam hence rich guy will simply not partner with poor and still be adherant muslim He just will pay 2.5 percent zakat. As it clearly goes against rich guy he wont give equal partnership to a poor guy, tell me will you be 50:50 partner with a guy if you pay all the money. Thats absurd.

About property bubble you are right,they did not do the fundamentals of money lending hence we all suffered. But tell me how an islamic system would have avoided. With zero intest loan, everybody will want a house. No?

 

[ice_man]

@ice_man .. inspite of the positives of circumcision, it is not good enough for mass circumcision of all boys, otherwise NHS or other boards would have encouraged it. Evidently the increase in ability to fend off std is not good enough.
I did not say islam is an ofshoot of judaism, I said they started the practice, and continue to advocate it vociferously in media.

About muslims partnering with others for business, its not mandatory in islam hence rich guy will simply not partner with poor and still be adherant muslim He just will pay 2.5 percent zakat. As it clearly goes against rich guy he wont give equal partnership to a poor guy, tell me will you be 50:50 partner with a guy if you pay all the money. Thats absurd.

About property bubble you are right,they did not do the fundamentals of money lending hence we all suffered. But tell me how an islamic system would have avoided. With zero intest loan, everybody will want a house. No?

so now you agree circumcision is good? but not "good enough". lol well it is amazing if it brings down STD don't you think? you rather save millions of lives and tax payers money in curing STIs and UTIs if you just circumcise. NHS do not get involved because they feel done at a young age is "illegal and against human rights" and done at later age can cause complications. but clearly study suggests 57% decrease in STIs is great!

as for rich guy partnering with a poor guy. well apparently according to you that poor guy is a genius entrepreneur. why wouldn't you wish to partner with a genius use his skills and your money to both people's benefit?

and you asked about ISLAMIC LAW for OWNERSHIP OF HOUSE. well its simple it has NO INTEREST.

it is done in the following way. the rich man or a man who can afford the house buys the house and then SELLS it at a profit to a poor man. and poor man PAYS YEARLY INSTALLMENTS on it. BUT if he fails to pay in a year then his property is not seized. but in CAPITALISM even if the guy cannot afford it he MUST PAY and if NOT it will be taken away.

so if you see 0 interest system is the best possible system. while interest system is like a FEUDAL system where feudals literally slave the poor workers on their farm due to non payment of debt.

simple as this interest system makes a person AN UNJUST AMIRSH PURI TYPE OF THAKAUR.