Fact or Fiction Part 1 !

[ebrahym]

One of the reasons to join in this forum was to find out the truth behind incidents that occurred in Pakistan which we read here through sources which many often are has little inputs from the country where it happened if the name of the name of the country is Pakistan it is more important to know the facts and separate it from the fictions that many a times peddled along with it and in times fictions became truth while facts are hidden. In this series I will put a few narratives. I request my fellow members in the forum to go through the sources and share your side of your story so that a better perspective can be gained.

One such thing is 3 time coup that happened in Pakistan which gave our country more legitimacy across global platform as a stable democratic country a successful model country who successfully shred the past of colonialism and a successful country emulating western style democracy a champion of western liberalism where democracy, pluralism and a robust economic outlook with lots of potential persists. Many of you may not agree with this but even with all the incidents the image is still like this. So my request to my fellow members is to describe behind the reason of these coups and what are the effects of this on your country in every sphere? If it is good why is that and if bad why is that? And also have got past the effects of the coups? Also is there again a possibility of a coup again in future? And also how strong is the country's civil administration to resist such attempts in future?

@Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @Pandora @Mangus Ortus Novem @Mujahid Memon @OsmanAli98 @Cliftonite @Areesh @SecularNationalist @Syed Hammad Ahmed @masterchief_mirza @Khanivore @Dalit @AZADPAKISTAN2009

in the first coup and almost all subsequent coups apart from 1998
the military was Invited by the opposition against the ruling party....
if you want to understand coups then realize that country was not under its own control until the coup of 1958 ..... Pakistan was desperate to get control of its armed forces but most of the upper echelon was either english or Anglo-indians....... which is one of the major reason Pakistan could not liberate all of Kashmir 1948 ... contrast it with India which although still had British officers but the C-in-C highly favored India infact tried to merge non-contiguos Pakistani territory with India ..... wrongfully divided Punjab even though it was not only dominated by Muslims but also had the provincial government of Muslim league ....... his secretary actually did an interview with bbc in which he describe how he favored united India and Pakistan was deliberately made weaker that it will remerge with India in two years..........
radcliffe wrote in his memoirs that if he knew Jinnah was so close to dying .... they would have delayed partition and independence altogether...........

now you know why we hold our military in such high esteem ......... we as a country had more conspiracies against us than could be con-tempted with ....... the game from very beginning has been rigged against us .....
well as i said to the other guy ...... only if you would have engaged me after Iftar i would have more energy for this discussion but here is a short version.....

 

[SecularNationalist]

I think you had one unfortunate incident which is by fate but costed you dear the demise of Jinnah

Totally agree with you and you are not the first Indian telling me this.
We lost our great leader early which costed us dearly.
After his demise this country was at the mercy of feudal Lord's and dictators.

 

[vegav]

in the first coup and almost all subsequent coups apart from 1998
the military was Invited by the opposition against the ruling party....
if you want to understand coups then realize that country was not under its own control until the coup of 1958 ..... Pakistan was desperate to get control of its armed forces but most of the upper echelon was either english or Anglo-indians....... which is one of the major reason Pakistan could not liberate all of Kashmir 1948 ... contrast it with India which although still had British officers but the C-in-C highly favored India infact tried to merge non-contiguos Pakistani territory with India ..... wrongfully divided Punjab even though it was not only dominated by Muslims but also had the provincial government of Muslim league ....... his secretary actually did an interview with bbc in which he describe how he favored united India and Pakistan was deliberately made weaker that it will remerge with India in two years..........
radcliffe wrote in his memoirs that if he knew Jinnah was so close to dying .... they would have delayed partition and independence altogether...........

now you know why we hold our military in such high esteem ......... we as a country had more conspiracies against us than could be con-tempted with ....... the game from very beginning has been rigged against us .....
well as i said to the other guy ...... only if you would have engaged me after Iftar i would have more energy for this discussion but here is a short version.....

Only one thing, if British is giving you pakistan and not your own natural right then one shouldnt complain. British did you a huge favor by saying provinces will decide when they could have said that the whole country will decide. In that case Pakistan wouldn't have happened.

 

[ebrahym]

Only one thing, if British is giving you pakistan and not your own natural right then one shouldnt complain. British did you a huge favor by saying provinces will decide when they could have said that the whole country will decide. In that case Pakistan wouldn't have happened.

british were heavily against the partition and it was the brilliance of Jinnah and muslim league that Pakistan happened........
if it were upto british the did not even want us to exist in the first place .......
you can feel good about yourself by saying that Pakistan was given to us by british ....... but the histroy proves that we carved it out ..... we did not liberate our country ..... because there was not any to liberate in the first place .....
but we very well "created" our own without pre-existing National conscience like India or Israel or any other country .....
we not only created a country but a whole new national conscience....
In the end the histroy proves that all the british favors rested with India and India only and British did everything they could to weaken or outright fail Pakistan from the very beginning ....all Patterns of partition dictate that.... Had a criteria been established Pakistan would have gained much more land then just East or west wing....

hence, Pakistan was neither given nor Liberated ....
It was "Created".

 

[vegav]

british were heavily against the partition and it was the brilliance of Jinnah and muslim league that Pakistan happened........
if it were upto british the did not even want us to exist in the first place .......
you can feel good about yourself by saying that Pakistan was given to us by british ....... but the histroy proves that we carved it out ..... we did not liberate our country ..... because there was not any to liberate in the first place .....
but we very well "created" our own without pre-existing National conscience like India or Israel or any other country .....
we not only created a country but a whole new national conscience....
In the end the histroy proves that all the british favors rested with India and India only and British did everything they could to weaken or outright fail Pakistan from the very beginning ....all Patterns of partition dictate that.... Had a criteria been established Pakistan would have gained much more land then just East or west wing....

hence, Pakistan was neither given nor Liberated ....
It was "Created".

And then pakistan joined CENTO? You really believe what you wrote?

 

[ebrahym]

And then pakistan joined CENTO? You really believe what you wrote?

well what happened after partition is quite different and in many ways quite opposite to what was supposed to happen ...... it is another matter of debate and discussion ...... and yes I believe what I wrote and I believe I can defend my "Opinions" with actual verifiable "Facts"....

on topic .... the thread was initiated to implore the reasons of coups in Pakistan which OP suggest and I agree is the only legitimacy of India's democracy .... I mean the only claim of India to be a successful democracy is belittling Pakistan's ...... "hey they had three coups we did not have one so we are a successful democracy"......

coming back on topic.....the reason for coups to happen is the happening of the first one ...... the main purpose of it was
1-to take complete control of the country.
2-delays of constituent assembly in ratifying a constitution.

 

[vegav]

well what happened after partition is quite different and in many ways quite opposite to what was supposed to happen ...... it is another matter of debate and discussion ...... and yes I believe what I wrote and I believe I can defend my "Opinions" with actual verifiable "Facts"....

on topic .... the thread was initiated to implore the reasons of coups in Pakistan which OP suggest and I agree is the only legitimacy of India's democracy .... I mean the only claim of India to be a successful democracy is belittling Pakistan's ...... "hey they had three coups we did not have one so we are a successful democracy"......

coming back on topic.....the reason for coups to happen is the happening of the first one ...... the main purpose of it was
1-to take complete control of the country.
2-delays of constituent assembly in ratifying a constitution.

Sorry sir, pakistan in the current form especially west Pakistan is a pure creation of the western block in connivance with the muslims zamindars of west Punjab. Some Rajput states speculated about joining pakistan because of the feudal power they would get before Sardar Patel nipped it in the bud.

Nehru and the Congress envisaged and ran India as a communist and socialist country until 1990 unlike Pakistan. We were much closer to the USSR and as a result if there was no pakistan USSR would have successfully invaded Afghanistan and also control India very well. This is the gist of it, the social situation in India and Hindu muslim relations or course contributed to the real act but there was no way a random line was becoming a border and 3 countries existing today in the current form without the global powers wanting it this way.

 

[ebrahym]

Sorry sir, pakistan in the current form especially west Pakistan is a pure creation of the western block in connivance with the muslims zamindars of west Punjab. Some Rajput states speculated about joining pakistan because of the feudal power they would get before Sardar Patel nipped it in the bud.

Nehru and the Congress envisaged and ran India as a communist and socialist country until 1990 unlike Pakistan. We were much closer to the USSR and as a result if there was no pakistan USSR would have successfully invaded Afghanistan and also control India very well. This is the gist of it, the social situation in India and Hindu muslim relations or course contributed to the real act but there was no way a random line was becoming a border and 3 countries existing today in the current form without the global powers wanting it this way.

everyone is entitled to their opinions .......
have a nice day.
regards

 

[xeuss]

Military rule, (and coups) for that matter, are only successful in countries where one branch of the armed forces is stronger than the other two. Chain of command to enforce the coup is important. In Pakistan, the army is dominant among the armed forces.

There is never a good comparison on why coups exists in one country and not another. I don't think it should be a measure of success of a country.

 

[JohnWick]

One of the reasons to join in this forum was to find out the truth behind incidents that occurred in Pakistan which we read here through sources which many often are has little inputs from the country where it happened if the name of the name of the country is Pakistan it is more important to know the facts and separate it from the fictions that many a times peddled along with it and in times fictions became truth while facts are hidden. In this series I will put a few narratives. I request my fellow members in the forum to go through the sources and share your side of your story so that a better perspective can be gained.

One such thing is 3 time coup that happened in Pakistan which gave our country more legitimacy across global platform as a stable democratic country a successful model country who successfully shred the past of colonialism and a successful country emulating western style democracy a champion of western liberalism where democracy, pluralism and a robust economic outlook with lots of potential persists. Many of you may not agree with this but even with all the incidents the image is still like this. So my request to my fellow members is to describe behind the reason of these coups and what are the effects of this on your country in every sphere? If it is good why is that and if bad why is that? And also have got past the effects of the coups? Also is there again a possibility of a coup again in future? And also how strong is the country's civil administration to resist such attempts in future?

@Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @Pandora @Mangus Ortus Novem @Mujahid Memon @OsmanAli98 @Cliftonite @Areesh @SecularNationalist @Syed Hammad Ahmed @masterchief_mirza @Khanivore @Dalit @AZADPAKISTAN2009

A successful Democratic stability?
A citizen whose PM is an Homicidal Maniac,
representing RSS, which are responsible for genocidal killing of Indian Muslims....In reality your secular credentials are screwed cz of this false fascist regime.... Congratulations