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F-22A Raptor's Rare "Super Mobility" Demonstration

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Normally when an F-22 is shown at an air show, pilots say they hide the actual maneuverability of the raptor. Actually, when I look at the airshow images, the F-22 launches are always the same or very similar ...

The "Super Maneuverability" of the F-22 Raptor is a secret issue of the US Air Force, and it is very occasionally and gradually released.

 
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Normally when an F-22 is shown at an air show, pilots say they hide the actual maneuverability of the raptor. Actually, when I look at the airshow images, the F-22 launches are always the same or very similar ...

The "Super Maneuverability" of the F-22 Raptor is a secret issue of the US Air Force, and it is very occasionally and gradually released.

Pugachev's Cobra maneuver?
SU-27s 30s 35s make it look easy tho.
 
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Not news to me. I seen the F-22 guys at Nellis do this on a regular basis. Maneuvers like this are very different from the Russians' airshow maneuvers. Airshow airspace are compressed because they need to show the audience. Forward airspeed are always tactically detrimental. But when the F-22s practices their BFM out of public sight and in real world airspace, even seasoned F-16 pilots asks: 'What sorcery is this?'

Here is the killer...The F-35 can do the same maneuvers WITHOUT thrust vectoring.

So all the F-35 critics out there, including the Australians and Pierre Sprey, they will be eating crows in the future.
 
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What spectacular piece of engineering, I've looked at that video over and over like I'm stupid.
 
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There are chatter from the Russians about how their pilots were 'unfairly' criticized about their airshow maneuvers as worthless and now the Americans does the same it is legitimately 'combat' maneuver.

Let me clear this up -- it is NOT the same.

In an airshow, you as the performer have highly 'compressed' airspace in terms of latitude and altitude, and if the day is cloudy, it is even more restricted. The term for that type of day is 'flat program'.

http://wfpl.org/expect-a-lower-faster-thunder-air-show-thanks-to-clouds/
“For any air show, they have a high show, a low show, or a flat show, depending on the cloud ceiling,” Boyd says.
The goal is to keep you in the audience's sight as much as possible.

Believe it, basic flight maneuvers (BFM) and air combat maneuvers (ACM) are NOT designed for airshows. Military pilots must receive training from civilian pilots for performing airshows. The civilian pilots, like the Breitling team, are used to performing maneuvers in ARTIFICIALLY restricted airspace. We are not talking about established teams like the Thunderbirds or Red Arrows. They have been around long enough to have their own trainers. We are talking about taking a front line pilot and have him perform at an airshow just for one or two times.

Airshow maneuvers must be redesigned to keep you within the audience's sight and for that, the first thing sacrificed is -- AIRSPEED. When the Russian pilot does the 'cobra' or whatever maneuver, his airspeed is either at or approaches stall. And in ACM, no one want to sacrifice his airspeed. Do that and you die.

What the Russians did at airshows indicated is that the airframe's aerodynamics are conducive to such maneuvers at sacrificial airspeed. Whether they are 'advantageous' or not COMPLETELY depends on the pilot's training and familiarity with the airframe in order to execute a particular maneuver at the right time during ACM.

What make our version of 'super maneuverability' different from the Russians' jets is that we incorporated the maneuvers into the F-22's and F-35's flight control laws in their flight control computers (FLCC). The pilot command and the jet execute. We do not want the pilot to fret about airspeed/altitude/command/TVC computation. Let the jet do that. And that is what happened in this F-22 here.
 
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What the Russians did at airshows indicated is that the airframe's aerodynamics are conducive to such maneuvers at sacrificial airspeed. Whether they are 'advantageous' or not COMPLETELY depends on the pilot's training and familiarity with the airframe in order to execute a particular maneuver at the right time during ACM.

Which makes it even more impressive that the Russians do all these incredible maneuvers in much more confined air spaces and altitudes at airshows.

What make our version of 'super maneuverability' different from the Russians' jets is that we incorporated the maneuvers into the F-22's and F-35's flight control laws in their flight control computers (FLCC). The pilot command and the jet execute. We do not want the pilot to fret about airspeed/altitude/command/TVC computation. Let the jet do that. And that is what happened in this F-22 here.

When Pugachev first spoke about doing the cobra, he mentioned that in order to get the aircraft's nose to pitch up that high on command of the stick, he had to turn off the AoA limiter prior to the maneuver so that the aircraft would respond. Guessing from what he said, it wouldn't have responded to pulling the stick back so aggressively since it's basically asking the aircraft to go into a stall. I thought that was fascinating since the AoA limiter of the Su-27 (at the time) wouldn't have allowed the aircraft to pitch up like that.

Now with all the newer FBW systems in Russian aircraft, you wonder if they still have to turn that limiter off when they perform all these amazing maneuvers or if the FLCC allows them to do it.
 
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Not news to me. I seen the F-22 guys at Nellis do this on a regular basis. Maneuvers like this are very different from the Russians' airshow maneuvers. Airshow airspace are compressed because they need to show the audience. Forward airspeed are always tactically detrimental. But when the F-22s practices their BFM out of public sight and in real world airspace, even seasoned F-16 pilots asks: 'What sorcery is this?'

Here is the killer...The F-35 can do the same maneuvers WITHOUT thrust vectoring.

So all the F-35 critics out there, including the Australians and Pierre Sprey, they will be eating crows in the future.
F35 is too secret it might even be better in some extent to other 5th gens.
 
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Not news to me. I seen the F-22 guys at Nellis do this on a regular basis. Maneuvers like this are very different from the Russians' airshow maneuvers. Airshow airspace are compressed because they need to show the audience. Forward airspeed are always tactically detrimental. But when the F-22s practices their BFM out of public sight and in real world airspace, even seasoned F-16 pilots asks: 'What sorcery is this?'

Here is the killer...The F-35 can do the same maneuvers WITHOUT thrust vectoring.

So all the F-35 critics out there, including the Australians and Pierre Sprey, they will be eating crows in the future.
Without the use of thrust vectoring wouldn't it take a longer time for a maneuver such as shown in the OP?

Thrust vectoring allows for a faster change in direction and enables a jet to do certain maneuvers(like Pugachev cobra) without the risk of stalling(where a jet without TV might stall). If F35 can do all the maneuvers of F22 without TV, does it take a longer time? Does the F35 have to be moving faster(in comparison to F22) to achieve the same manuever without TV?
 
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Su-30 was already making that same maneuver the F-22 is doing in that tiny clip in the OP back in 2009 and earlier even. Su-35 does it here in this video during minute 0:43 through minute 0:51. That's the exact same maneuver and not only that, if you follow what the aircraft does after minute 0:51 is unreal! It flies backwards while completing a "backfilp."


Su-37 performing the "Kulbit."


Here's the F-22 doing that same maneuver in the OP several times at an airshow.

 
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Which makes it even more impressive that the Russians do all these incredible maneuvers in much more confined air spaces and altitudes at airshows.
Actually, any front line pilot familiar with his aircraft can take his jet to its maximum performance in any airshow airspace. The issue is allotted time for training.

When Pugachev first spoke about doing the cobra, he mentioned that in order to get the aircraft's nose to pitch up that high on command of the stick, he had to turn off the AoA limiter prior to the maneuver so that the aircraft would respond. Guessing from what he said, it wouldn't have responded to pulling the stick back so aggressively since it's basically asking the aircraft to go into a stall. I thought that was fascinating since the AoA limiter of the Su-27 (at the time) wouldn't have allowed the aircraft to pitch up like that.

Now with all the newer FBW systems in Russian aircraft, you wonder if they still have to turn that limiter off when they perform all these amazing maneuvers or if the FLCC allows them to do it.
Am going to do a quick review of the flight control system loop for the benefit of the readers out there.

In a 3-axes fly-by-wire flight control system (FBW-FLCS), stability augmentation (stabaug) is constant and the process loop takes inputs from these components:

- Command
- Gyroscopes
- Accelerometers
- Air data
- Feedback position sensors

Flight control surface displacement is governed by continuous gain calculations of the above factors. But to put it simply, the slower the airspeed, the greater the displacement to make a maneuver. It make sense because the slower the airspeed, the less aerodynamic forces upon the fight control surfaces.

FCI3Fms.jpg


Russian fanboys are crying foul on why when their pilots does it the maneuver is useless but when the F-22 does it, the maneuver is 'combat' effective.

There is a reason why there is an angle-of-attack (AOA) limiter: Decreasing aerodynamic forces upon the flight control surfaces.

Decreasing, and eventually lack of, aerodynamic forces upon the flight control surfaces leads to out of control flight. In ACM, even a fraction of a second of loss of controlled flight increases your odds of dying to above the %50 threshold.

If we imagine the Su fighter to be continuously moving from left to right, at number 2 when the Su pilot command a full pitch up with the AOA limiter disabled, there is ZERO pitot (ram) air component. Air data inputs consists of pitot (ram) and static pressures. At this point, the flight controls laws are operating at their maximum gains precisely because of zero pitot air. Any command from the pilot and the flight control surfaces will respond at the highest rate of movement and to the maximum limits of the hydraulic actuators at the flight control surfaces. In the absence of any of the above stabaug components, the FLCC is programmed to respond with defaulted values, which is equivalent to that of take-off and landing (TO/L) values. TO/L values are considered 'safe' values.

If there is an F-22 at the top of the 'cobra' movement, the Su pilot will be helpless to do anything about it simply because he turned into a full time pilot instead of a killer. He will need a guy-in-back (GIB) to do the shooting or to tell him when to shoot. Plus, his airspeed was near zero. A completely helpless position.

If we look closer to the F-22 in this thread, the only time when it was missing an air data input is at timestamp 3:33 to the end when the F-22 completed its loop. Airspeed was minimally lost or sacrificed and there were full aerodynamic forces upon the flight control surfaces.

For an airshow, the Su fighter would have made a tighter loop using maneuvers similar to the 'cobra', but in the real world, he would have been dead.
 
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Actually, any front line pilot familiar with his aircraft can take his jet to its maximum performance in any airshow airspace. The issue is allotted time for training.

I think there are also much stricter rules assigned to performances at US airshows, compared to Russian ones.
I remember in the early 90's when the first US/Russian pilot "exchange" or pilots interaction happened and US pilots met up with Russian ones and exchanged rides and got to see for the first time, how the other performed as well as getting exposed to the airframes. I believe the Americans had F-18s while the Russians had the MiG-29 and I clearly remember the American squadron leader talking about how he couldn't believe how they flew inverted only a few hundred feet above the runway and how that would've never been allowed in the USAF but was perfectly fine in Russian protocol. Really fun stuff I'll try to find the video.

There was also in late 2016 when the French were performing for the first time at a US airshow with the Rafale and they had to submit their routine for approval by either the FAA or whomever was responsible for allowing or ok'ing the stunts that were in their routines and they approved all except for one which was called the "square turn." It's similar to a minimum radius turn but instead of being a constant turn, it was basically a square with 4 sharp turns at each corner. Sounds harmless, right? But the problem they had with the stunt was that it wasn't just a 4-corner turn but in between each one of those sharp corner turns, the Rafale pilot would do 2-3 barrel rolls LOL! So imagine doing a high-speed, 4-corner square turn and in between each sharp turn, performing 2 or 3 barrel rolls. Either the FAA or the Air Force show organizers thought it was way too dangerous and asked the French to take that out of the routine. So I think there's a higher threshold as to what stunts are allowed in the US as compared to Russia, or even Europe.

There is a reason why there is an angle-of-attack (AOA) limiter: Decreasing aerodynamic forces upon the flight control surfaces.

So you think that even the F-22 has an AoA/Alpha limiter switch that can be turned off?

If there is an F-22 at the top of the 'cobra' movement, the Su pilot will be helpless to do anything about it simply because he turned into a full time pilot instead of a killer. He will need a guy-in-back (GIB) to do the shooting or to tell him when to shoot. Plus, his airspeed was near zero. A completely helpless position.

If we look closer to the F-22 in this thread, the only time when it was missing an air data input is at timestamp 3:33 to the end when the F-22 completed its loop. Airspeed was minimally lost or sacrificed and there were full aerodynamic forces upon the flight control surfaces.

For an airshow, the Su fighter would have made a tighter loop using maneuvers similar to the 'cobra', but in the real world, he would have been dead.

But that applies to either case, right? Whomever is pulling the maneuver is at a disadvantage if the other is well positioned.
 
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Actually, any front line pilot familiar with his aircraft can take his jet to its maximum performance in any airshow airspace. The issue is allotted time for training.


Am going to do a quick review of the flight control system loop for the benefit of the readers out there.

In a 3-axes fly-by-wire flight control system (FBW-FLCS), stability augmentation (stabaug) is constant and the process loop takes inputs from these components:

- Command
- Gyroscopes
- Accelerometers
- Air data
- Feedback position sensors

Flight control surface displacement is governed by continuous gain calculations of the above factors. But to put it simply, the slower the airspeed, the greater the displacement to make a maneuver. It make sense because the slower the airspeed, the less aerodynamic forces upon the fight control surfaces.

FCI3Fms.jpg


Russian fanboys are crying foul on why when their pilots does it the maneuver is useless but when the F-22 does it, the maneuver is 'combat' effective.

There is a reason why there is an angle-of-attack (AOA) limiter: Decreasing aerodynamic forces upon the flight control surfaces.

Decreasing, and eventually lack of, aerodynamic forces upon the flight control surfaces leads to out of control flight. In ACM, even a fraction of a second of loss of controlled flight increases your odds of dying to above the %50 threshold.

If we imagine the Su fighter to be continuously moving from left to right, at number 2 when the Su pilot command a full pitch up with the AOA limiter disabled, there is ZERO pitot (ram) air component. Air data inputs consists of pitot (ram) and static pressures. At this point, the flight controls laws are operating at their maximum gains precisely because of zero pitot air. Any command from the pilot and the flight control surfaces will respond at the highest rate of movement and to the maximum limits of the hydraulic actuators at the flight control surfaces. In the absence of any of the above stabaug components, the FLCC is programmed to respond with defaulted values, which is equivalent to that of take-off and landing (TO/L) values. TO/L values are considered 'safe' values.

If there is an F-22 at the top of the 'cobra' movement, the Su pilot will be helpless to do anything about it simply because he turned into a full time pilot instead of a killer. He will need a guy-in-back (GIB) to do the shooting or to tell him when to shoot. Plus, his airspeed was near zero. A completely helpless position.

If we look closer to the F-22 in this thread, the only time when it was missing an air data input is at timestamp 3:33 to the end when the F-22 completed its loop. Airspeed was minimally lost or sacrificed and there were full aerodynamic forces upon the flight control surfaces.

For an airshow, the Su fighter would have made a tighter loop using maneuvers similar to the 'cobra', but in the real world, he would have been dead.
In addendum, you need to be in dire straights to actually get to this airpseed.
There was a lot of fuss made about the Rafale scoring a “kill” on the F-22. What is not disclosed is that the Rafale had to violate not just the hard deck but distance limits to get that kill.

Most pilots will not let themselves get into the energy state that any of the airshow sukhois tend to be in. Simply because
A. Energy(speed) is life
B. 90% of engagement are not 1v1 and there is always a second guy coming after you.

That is not to say that the Flanker airframe in general is not a good energy fighter without the TVC- but the addition of the Heavy TVC just adds on weight to an airframe that is very heavy even when clean carrying full fuel.
Not to mention that the TVC on the Flanker is an afterthought to an original airframe, the basic design wasn’t always focused on being TVC capable.

Now bring in the raptor which was designed from the outset to be clean and maneuverable with load- it’s simply a different equation.
 
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There was a lot of fuss made about the Rafale scoring a “kill” on the F-22. What is not disclosed is that the Rafale had to violate not just the hard deck but distance limits to get that kill.

Sounds like scene out of Top Gun haha. So the Rafale went below the 10,000ft threshold AND outside the fight envelope? If that wasn't disclosed, how did you come to find out about it? Not giving you a hard time at all, just curious.

That is not to say that the Flanker airframe in general is not a good energy fighter without the TVC- but the addition of the Heavy TVC just adds on weight to an airframe that is very heavy even when clean carrying full fuel.
Not to mention that the TVC on the Flanker is an afterthought to an original airframe, the basic design wasn’t always focused on being TVC capable.

Makes sense, but it doesn't seem like the TVC engines on any of the Flankers have hampered them in any way whatsoever, especially when you look at some of the numbers on the comparison stats of the Su-35 to the F-22.
Here are some of the more important comparison stats and aside from the RCS rating, it holds itself pretty well compared to the Raptor in several crucial categories. I picked the few I thought pertained to this discussion and the rest can be found in the link.

CATEGORY F-22 RAPTOR SUKHOI -35
______________________________________________________
Maneuverability 9.4/10 (2D Aerody.) 9.9/10 (3D Thrust)
______________________________________________________
Thrust/Weight 1.26 1.21
______________________________________________________
Speed (km/h) 4248 4779
______________________________________________________
RCS – Radar
Cross Section 0.0001-0.4 1.0-3.5
______________________________________________________
Dogfight Rating 86% 95%
______________________________________________________
Weight 19,700 kg – 43,5k lb 18,400 kg (40,570 lb)
______________________________________________________
Power 2 x 153 kN – 35k lbf 2 x 142 kN – 31,4k lbf


http://aviatia.net/f-22-raptor-vs-sukhoi-su-35/
 
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