f 16 and AGM 84

[MastanKhan]

AoA
Had discussions regarding comparison between JH-7B and Su-35 with a member in another thread.

The Su-35 with air to air refueling can match the distance of the JH-7B but not the load.
Su-35 however can defend itself and be used in multiple roles.
Considering financial restraints what should be the way forward?

Regards

Hi,

I appreciate your kind gesture of asking me the question knowing that you are way more qualified than I will ever be---anyway.

First of all----we need to look for things without financial restraints but still staying within reason---because if all the consideration is clouded by that---then truthfully we will not be able to look at an item objectively.

The reason being that our opponent---is 3 times equipped better than us---and its thinking about us is ever changing---by the hour---by the day---by each incidence. So---fort that reason---the choice of the weapon in question has to be the right one.

So---other than what we have now as frontline aircraft---the F16's and the JF17's----we need two different kinds of aircraft---and that is excluding the 5th gen---.

And both these aircraft are extremely important----but the one that leads the list is a deep naval deep strike aircraft. The JH7B is a poor man's F111 minus the swing wings that we don't need.

In its current form----this aircraft can utilize all of the Chinese weaponry that we have in store and the ones that become available----so that is not an extra expense---. For the SU35---even though the Russians may allow integration of some weapons----we may not get the okay for all of them----I believe that was one of the reason that the Chinese went for the upgrade of the JH7B.

One important thing to understand is that the air force needs to realize that a mach 2 + bomber is a must for the air force. It needs to re-track its foot steps and go back to the days of the 60''s and the 70's when it had dedicated sqdrn of bombers.

Another very important consideration is the ability to launch ALCM's---currently we have them in the range of 250--300 KM range----. But we have the surface launched Babur cruise missile than can be converted to an air launched version as well---and if there has not been an interest in that---I would say that should be the top priority.

The Russians may not allow us to integrate the ALCM Babur because of its range.

And as you will know that the air launched version of the same missile has almost 1 1/2 to twice the range of the land version with the same weight, fuel and warhead. So---an ALCM launched from 200-300 km away from enemy coastline can go another 1000 KM deeper into enemy territory.

Let me re-phrase it---you took off and crossed from land over the sea at somewhere Gwadar pasni----you go down straight 500 km---then turn and go another 150 km and then at launch point you are looking at covering almost all the southern tip of the enemy land mass.

You cannot gain that utility any other way---. You have all of the enemy's soft belly exposed.

Then the Growler type utility of this aircraft at that distance is a massive asset for any strike mission or any other air superiority defense.

You know very well that all the awacs type aircraft will be targeted and neutralized by the 3rd or the 4th day of the war or will be flying much farther than they would be otherwise----. So---the tracking and the jamming capabilities of this aircraft will be much in demand either on land or over the ocean---.

The last thing is the price----I still believe that this aircraft is in the 25-35 million range and not the 50 million range....plus the savings in the cost of weaponry-----.

I really don't see the SU35 competing with the overall utility of the JH7B overall----even though in air superiority---it would run circles around the JH7B.

Now---it would be an excellent aircraft to compliment the overall utility of the Jh7B---just like the F15 to the F16-----.

We are not even taking about the anti ship missile capability of this aircraft yet----which is the basic reason to think about this aircraft---.

 

[majid mehmood]

Hi,

I appreciate your kind gesture of asking me the question knowing that you are way more qualified than I will ever be---anyway.

First of all----we need to look for things without financial restraints but still staying within reason---because if all the consideration is clouded by that---then truthfully we will not be able to look at an item objectively.

The reason being that our opponent---is 3 times equipped better than us---and its thinking about us is ever changing---by the hour---by the day---by each incidence. So---fort that reason---the choice of the weapon in question has to be the right one.

So---other than what we have now as frontline aircraft---the F16's and the JF17's----we need two different kinds of aircraft---and that is excluding the 5th gen---.

And both these aircraft are extremely important----but the one that leads the list is a deep naval deep strike aircraft. The JH7B is a poor man's F111 minus the swing wings that we don't need.

In its current form----this aircraft can utilize all of the Chinese weaponry that we have in store and the ones that become available----so that is not an extra expense---. For the SU35---even though the Russians may allow integration of some weapons----we may not get the okay for all of them----I believe that was one of the reason that the Chinese went for the upgrade of the JH7B.

One important thing to understand is that the air force needs to realize that a mach 2 + bomber is a must for the air force. It needs to re-track its foot steps and go back to the days of the 60''s and the 70's when it had dedicated sqdrn of bombers.

Another very important consideration is the ability to launch ALCM's---currently we have them in the range of 250--300 KM range----. But we have the surface launched Babur cruise missile than can be converted to an air launched version as well---and if there has not been an interest in that---I would say that should be the top priority.

The Russians may not allow us to integrate the ALCM Babur because of its range.

And as you will know that the air launched version of the same missile has almost 1 1/2 to twice the range of the land version with the same weight, fuel and warhead. So---an ALCM launched from 200-300 km away from enemy coastline can go another 1000 KM deeper into enemy territory.

Let me re-phrase it---you took off and crossed from land over the sea at somewhere Gwadar pasni----you go down straight 500 km---then turn and go another 150 km and then at launch point you are looking at covering almost all the southern tip of the enemy land mass.

You cannot gain that utility any other way---. You have all of the enemy's soft belly exposed.

Then the Growler type utility of this aircraft at that distance is a massive asset for any strike mission or any other air superiority defense.

You know very well that all the awacs type aircraft will be targeted and neutralized by the 3rd or the 4th day of the war or will be flying much farther than they would be otherwise----. So---the tracking and the jamming capabilities of this aircraft will be much in demand either on land or over the ocean---.

The last thing is the price----I still believe that this aircraft is in the 25-35 million range and not the 50 million range....plus the savings in the cost of weaponry-----.

I really don't see the SU35 competing with the overall utility of the JH7B overall----even though in air superiority---it would run circles around the JH7B.

Now---it would be an excellent aircraft to compliment the overall utility of the Jh7B---just like the F15 to the F16-----.

We are not even taking about the anti ship missile capability of this aircraft yet----which is the basic reason to think about this aircraft---.

i agree with u but this plane price is 40-45 million
it was jh7a which was less but jh7b is expensive but some of the thing u forgot that this plane combat range is 2000km
speed mach 2
and engine more powerful than ws10a which produce 135kn which means it can go to 145kn
plus it incorporates stealth characteristics and it rcs is around 2-3m2 clean
link
Xian JH-7B fighter-bomber has new homegrown engine: Huanqiu｜WCT

 

[MastanKhan]

i agree with u but this plane price is 40-45 million
it was jh7a which was less but jh7b is expensive but some of the thing u forgot that this plane combat range is 2000km
speed mach 2
and engine more powerful than ws10a which produce 135kn which means it can go to 145kn
plus it incorporates stealth characteristics and it rcs is around 2-3m2 clean
link
Xian JH-7B fighter-bomber has new homegrown engine: Huanqiu｜WCT

Hi,

Thank you----. The combat range is without air to air refueling----and instead of the air refueller a buddy refueling capability would be very well acknowledged---

And again----the large refuelers would also be targeted in the first 72 hours and possibly all of them taken out---.

@silent hawk So---another very important aspect would be to have buddy refueling. And that could work for both the JH7B and the JF17----( I think this aspect of buddy refueling if managed would be indeed a force multiplier ).

And 30 to 40 millions---what is 10 million between friends---just kidding----. The saving for not procuring separate Russian weapons could make up for the difference.

The most important question is---is it able---is it capable---is it available---can it reach farther out---does it have the latest gadgets---is the electronic suite upto date---.

The thing is that not every thing is show and pomp----many a times the uglies do a better job---. Like the A10 warthog orthe B52---. The user does not want to let go of it even after the age of retirement---.

 

[majid mehmood]

Hi,

Thank you----. The combat range is without air to air refueling----and instead of the air refueller a buddy refueling capability would be very well acknowledged---

And again----the large refuelers would also be targeted in the first 72 hours and possibly all of them taken out---.

@silent hawk So---another very important aspect would be to have buddy refueling. And that could work for both the JH7B and the JF17----( I think this aspect of buddy refueling if managed would be indeed a force multiplier ).

And 30 to 40 millions---what is 10 million between friends---just kidding----. The saving for not procuring separate Russian weapons could make up for the difference.

The most important question is---is it able---is it capable---is it available---can it reach farther out---does it have the latest gadgets---is the electronic suite upto date---.

The thing is that not every thing is show and pomp----many a times the uglies do a better job---. Like the A10 warthog orthe B52---. The user does not want to let go of it even after the age of retirement---.

it has an aesa radar, the combat range is 2000 km without aerial refueling
actually they have equipped with a powerful engine so internal fuel has increased thus increasing speed by engine and range by adding fuel they have added 1000 liter of more fuel (but this was news in 2010)
but the thing is it is just in prototypes so it will ready in 2016-17 time frame

 

[Khafee]

Secondly and most importantly, it has been my observation, that Europeans & Chinese, plus maybe some other countries, declare the range of a missile when fired at sea level, which is usually 40% ~ 60% less when compared to their range at 30,000ft ~ 40,000ft. Reason being MTCR.

@khafee since you were involved in procurement, can you shed more light on this?

Sir, you are absolutely right.

 

[silent hawk]

Hi,

I appreciate your kind gesture of asking me the question knowing that you are way more qualified than I will ever be---anyway.

First of all----we need to look for things without financial restraints but still staying within reason---because if all the consideration is clouded by that---then truthfully we will not be able to look at an item objectively.

The reason being that our opponent---is 3 times equipped better than us---and its thinking about us is ever changing---by the hour---by the day---by each incidence. So---fort that reason---the choice of the weapon in question has to be the right one.

So---other than what we have now as frontline aircraft---the F16's and the JF17's----we need two different kinds of aircraft---and that is excluding the 5th gen---.

And both these aircraft are extremely important----but the one that leads the list is a deep naval deep strike aircraft. The JH7B is a poor man's F111 minus the swing wings that we don't need.

In its current form----this aircraft can utilize all of the Chinese weaponry that we have in store and the ones that become available----so that is not an extra expense---. For the SU35---even though the Russians may allow integration of some weapons----we may not get the okay for all of them----I believe that was one of the reason that the Chinese went for the upgrade of the JH7B.

One important thing to understand is that the air force needs to realize that a mach 2 + bomber is a must for the air force. It needs to re-track its foot steps and go back to the days of the 60''s and the 70's when it had dedicated sqdrn of bombers.

Another very important consideration is the ability to launch ALCM's---currently we have them in the range of 250--300 KM range----. But we have the surface launched Babur cruise missile than can be converted to an air launched version as well---and if there has not been an interest in that---I would say that should be the top priority.

The Russians may not allow us to integrate the ALCM Babur because of its range.

And as you will know that the air launched version of the same missile has almost 1 1/2 to twice the range of the land version with the same weight, fuel and warhead. So---an ALCM launched from 200-300 km away from enemy coastline can go another 1000 KM deeper into enemy territory.

Let me re-phrase it---you took off and crossed from land over the sea at somewhere Gwadar pasni----you go down straight 500 km---then turn and go another 150 km and then at launch point you are looking at covering almost all the southern tip of the enemy land mass.

You cannot gain that utility any other way---. You have all of the enemy's soft belly exposed.

Then the Growler type utility of this aircraft at that distance is a massive asset for any strike mission or any other air superiority defense.

You know very well that all the awacs type aircraft will be targeted and neutralized by the 3rd or the 4th day of the war or will be flying much farther than they would be otherwise----. So---the tracking and the jamming capabilities of this aircraft will be much in demand either on land or over the ocean---.

The last thing is the price----I still believe that this aircraft is in the 25-35 million range and not the 50 million range....plus the savings in the cost of weaponry-----.

I really don't see the SU35 competing with the overall utility of the JH7B overall----even though in air superiority---it would run circles around the JH7B.

Now---it would be an excellent aircraft to compliment the overall utility of the Jh7B---just like the F15 to the F16-----.

We are not even taking about the anti ship missile capability of this aircraft yet----which is the basic reason to think about this aircraft---.

AoA
Thanks for the praise. You are very knowledgeable and I enjoy discussions with you.

An excellent and very convincing reply to my question. Thanks.

A Future PAF with 5 Sqns of F-16s, 8 Sqns of JF-17s, 3 Sqns of Su-35 and 2 Sqns of JH-7B would pack a big punch while remaining within the 18 Sqns 4type structure.
Regards