Excerpt from a MBT Arjun vs T90 Tank Audit

[raja hindustani]

Here is something i found on the internet.

 

[Omega007]

Here is something i found on the internet.

Has been already discussed.

 

[SwAggeR]

I gues after successful development of CLGM by DRDO for Arjun-2, we can see increment in numbers ordered.

 

[Ind4Ever]

I gues after successful development of CLGM by DRDO for Arjun-2, we can see increment in numbers ordered.

What was the conclusion ? And is it 1 or 2 ?

 

[SwAggeR]

What was the conclusion ? And is it 1 or 2 ?

All comparisons above are with MK 1.

Conclusion is very clear, Arjun outmatched T-90 in almost every competition but I guess since both are different weight class Tanks there can't be any real comparisons among them. IA can fire Invar missiles from T-90 but Arjun is still deviod any such capability. Israeli LAHAT missiles were tried but discarded so , now DRDO is developing indigenous CLGM , may be then IA can increase the order for MK 2.

 

[Major Shaitan Singh]

The Arjun MK II MBT
In August 2014, the Defence Acquisition Council(DAC) finally gave the go ahead for 118 Arjun Mk-2 MBTs for an order value of about Rs 6600 crores.This signalled a return to production for the Arjun MBT line at Heavy Vehicles factory (HVF), Avadi that had been lying idle since 2010-11 when the last Arjun Mk-Is rolled out. Nevertheless the piecemeal order is indicative of the fact that the Indian Army (IA) continues to insist upon the demonstration of a potent missile firing capability from the Arjun Mk-2's gun before it places an indent for a much larger order. And a much larger order, as has been known to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) is absolutely needed to make it viable to indigenize various sub-systems in the Arjun Mk-2. Meanwhile, the IA continues to face issues with its pool of T-90S MBTs and is increasingly turning to the Defence Research & Development Organization(DRDO) to upgrade these tanks with domestically developed technologies in a manner resembling DRDO's Combat Improved Ajeya (CIA) program for existing T-72s in the IA's inventory. Be that as it may the IA has to support economies of scale in the overall Arjun program as that will have a direct bearing on India's ability to productionize the Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) that is needed to replace the IA's ageing T-72 park heading into the 2020s.

The Arjun Mk-2 variant developed by DRDO's Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) essentially grew out of the IA's recommended upgrades post the Arjun Mk-I's comparative trials with the T-90S which included among other things the incorporation of an anti-tank missile firing capability, an increase in penetrating power of ammunition used and the mounting of explosive reactive armour (ERA) panels. In order to comply with these requests besides generally updating the Mk-I design and making its assemblies more production friendly, CVRDE has made some 89 upgrades to the baseline Mk-1, including 19 major improvements such as the incorporation of animproved commander's panoramic sight, a track width mine plough, automatic target tracking,power driven air defence gun, advanced running gear system, final drive with reduction ratio, an improved slip ring, capability to fire new thermobaric ammunition,ERA, a laser warning countermeasure system, and a new auxiliary power unit (APU) generating in excess of 8 KW of power i.e double that of the Mk-1's APU.

The Arjun Mk-2 also features the capability to fire the Israeli LAHAT missile in an anti-tank role through its 120 mm main gun. However the LAHAT has turned out to be a sticking point between the IA and DRDO since besides uneven accuracy, smoke regurgitation from the LAHAT missile into the fighting compartment as it is fired through the main gun has been deemed as too hazardous by the IA. As of now DRDO has dropped the LAHAT from its Arjun Mk-2 MBT plans and is instead pursuing the Canon Launched Guided Missile (CLGM) being developed indigenously at the Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL).

The missile firing capability requirement grew out of the fact that though the Arjun Mk-I with a score of 25.77 beat the T-90S with a score of 24.50 in the firepower criteria during the 2010 comparative trials if the T-90S's missile firing capability were to be kept aside, the T-90 fared marginally better in the overall final score primarily on account of its Invar missile firing capability. The comparative trials were on four parameters viz. fire power, survivability, reliability and miscellaneous issues of the tank with weightages of 40, 35, 15 and 10 respectively. As per the trial report, MBT Arjun performed better than the T-90 tank in accuracy and consistency of firepower. However, the T-90S seems to have performed better in lethality and missile firing capability. Importantly, the IA concluded (April 2010) that "Arjun had performed creditably and it could be employed both for offensive and defensive tasks with same efficacy of T-90 tank'.

Now if the Mk-I itself could do that, then the Mk-2 given its technology, will certainly do far better. In fact in terms of both firepower and survivability the Mk-I will easily surpass Eastern Bloc tanks with or without taking into account a missile firing capability. As such the Arjun Mk-2 is clearly something that the IA should be using to overmatch Pakistani tanks, especially in the desert sector where the T-90S's electronics and sights have been known to function erratically. This is now sought to be remedied, by retrofitting existing T-90Ss with an air-conditioning unit being developed by DRDO. In fact other sub-systems developed by DRDO for the Arjun Mk-2 program are also expected to be featured in the T-90S including CVRDE's ERA Mk-II. A DRDO developed commander's non panoramic thermal imaging sight for the T-90S has also entered production with Bharat Electronics Limited and the Ordnance Factory Board. The T-90S will also use indigenous high accuracy fibre optic gyros developed by DRDO's Research Center Imarat (RCI) and feature fire control systems originally developed for the Arjun Mk-2.

So, the T-90S upgrade path is similar to that followed for modifying T-72M1s to the CIA standard which includes indigenous ERA, navigation aids, an uprated 1000 HP power pack, fire suppression system, new displays and sights. Almost a 1000 CIA's have been delivered to the IA, which now probably feels that the time is ripe for upgrading older T-90S lots besides building new ones with the improved features, since production seems to have finally stabilized at around 90-100 units a year.


The T-90S's domestic production at HVF after all has been a difficult process with the Russian OEM refusing to transfer technology for vital assemblies such as the gun system (including the barrel) and turret armour plates. For the first 175 T-90s produced at Avadi, the gun system had to be imported off the shelf from Russia. However starting 2012, an indigenous 125 mm smooth bore gun developed by DRDO with a 'modified chemistry barrel' of the existing T-72 gun has gone into production having completed trials in 2010.This modified chemistry barrel has also successfully completed a life cycle test conducted at Armoured Corps Centre & School Ahmednagar. The last two years have also seen the indigenization of the T-90S's commander hatch control unit, indigenous production of 50 types of critical optical components of the T-90Sand indigenously developed cable harnesses for the same. Overall the latest batches of T-90Ss will be between 80-90 percent indigenous by value. At the moment HVF is racing to fulfil the old indent of 300 tanks (of which 80 percent may have been delivered) and is looking to commence production for some 236 more tanks as per the December 2013 indent given to it by the IA. Overall the number of T-90Ss in the IA's inventory today is just over 900 units.

Even as the domestic production of the T-90S stabilizes there may be a move underway to procure some 354 T-90MS tanks from Russia directly to counter the Chinese at some points on the LAC. Proposals for any more direct import from Russia however is a little strange given that the focus instead should be on producing sizeable numbers of Arjun Mk-2s and deploying them in the Punjab and Jammu sectors as well which would free up enough domestically built T-90Ss to be deployed against China. With a power /weight ratio of 21.0, and the nominal ground pressure (NGP) of 0.95 kg/cm2 the Arjun Mk-2 is more than capable of being deployed in these areas. Moreover the .feasibility report by the railways has confirmed that the movement of Arjun loaded wagon anywhere is not a problem. The Arjun Mk-2 is strategically mobile enough to be deployed to Punjab especially given that enough bridging equipment of maximum load class 70 is available anyway.


A larger production run for the Arjun Mk-2 say of the order of about 500 units will allow its developers to indigenize about 70 percent of its systems, from the current 40 percent. This is important because having domestic suppliers for these systems with stabilized quality will make it easier to productionize the proposed FMBT at a future date which will use sub-systems of this variety that have been refined and improved. It must be noted that while CIA induction is well and good many of the IA's T-72s will run out of their designed service lives by the early 2020s which would mean that new tanks would have to replace them given the IA's authorized tank strength of some 3717 units.


Some of the replacements will be Arjun Mk-2s themselves, others however will be the FMBT that will have to be kept at around 50 tons by weight as far the IA's broad requirements go. The IA however has still not been able to narrow down precisely what it wants from the FMBT, but broadly speaking this tank will feature either a 125 mm or 120 mm smoothbore gun with missile firing capability, an active protection system, next generation hydro-pneumatic suspension that will be succeeded by fully active suspension and a power pack that generates either 1500 or 1800 HP. At the moment it seems that the 1500 HP Bharat Power Pack under development as a national mission mode project involving DRDO and industry will power the FMBT which the IA may want to be closer to 45-50 tons than not.

 

[Major Shaitan Singh]

 

[Omega007]

All comparisons above are with MK 1.

Conclusion is very clear, Arjun outmatched T-90 in almost every competition but I guess since both are different weight class Tanks there can't be any real comparisons among them. IA can fire Invar missiles from T-90 but Arjun is still deviod any such capability. Israeli LAHAT missiles were tried but discarded so , now DRDO is developing indigenous CLGM , may be then IA can increase the order for MK 2.

Why not??Both are MBTs in that Main Battle Tanks.And there is no such classification among MBTs based on their weight class which means an MBT is just an MBT............nothing more nothing less.One can not classify them in medium or heavy category because till now,no such classification exists anywhere in the world.
The MBT is an universal design which were built to simplify the logistics of the armored forces through out the world.They were looking for a tank designed in a way that it would outclass the light tanks in mobility,outclass the mediums and heavies in terms of armor protection and firepower.................so that the same tank can be used in any role.And the result was the MBT.

 

[Ind4Ever]

All comparisons above are with MK 1.

Conclusion is very clear, Arjun outmatched T-90 in almost every competition but I guess since both are different weight class Tanks there can't be any real comparisons among them. IA can fire Invar missiles from T-90 but Arjun is still deviod any such capability. Israeli LAHAT missiles were tried but discarded so , now DRDO is developing indigenous CLGM , may be then IA can increase the order for MK 2.

Cool. .. Two things things can be should be done : Order more number of MK 2 But need to ramp up overall infrastructure like strengthen bridges etc

Or Make it lighter with Automation of many other systems to reduce the number men to two ...

Why not??Both are MBTs in that Main Battle Tanks.And there is no such classification among MBTs based on their weight class which means an MBT is just an MBT............nothing more nothing less.One can not classify them in medium or heavy category because till now,no such classification exists anywhere in the world.
The MBT is an universal design which were built to simplify the logistics of the armored forces through out the world.They were looking for a tank designed in a way that it would outclass the light tanks in mobility,outclass the mediums and heavies in terms of armor protection and firepower.................so that the same tank can be used in any role.And the result was the MBT.

Due to its weigh it's hard to use it on eastern border or very western Punjab region. T72 are used

 

[SwAggeR]

Cool. .. Two things things can be should be done : Order more number of MK 2 But need to ramp up overall infrastructure like strengthen bridges etc

Or Make it lighter with Automation of many other systems to reduce the number men to two ...

Buddy Infra is already there as you will notice the pressure exerted by Arjun per sq. inch is less than that of T-90

Your option two is kiddish , there is no MBT in the whole world which operates with only 2 men. Yes reloading of ammo can be made automatic and one man can be reduced but don't you think 80 kg. is just .11 % of 67,000 kgs ??

 

[Ind4Ever]

Buddy Infra is already there as you will notice the pressure exerted by Arjun per sq. inch is less than that of T-90

Your option two is kiddish , there is no MBT in the whole world which operates with only 2 men. Yes reloading of ammo can be made automatic and one man can be reduced but don't you think 80 kg. is just .11 % of 67,000 kgs ??

Our F MBT will be less than MK2 or MK1 . Weight do maters. There was an article on why Army opting for Lighter MBTS . Which clearly talked about weak infrastructure . And complexity of using heavy MBT in our eastern mountain areas.

 

[13 komaun]

We should have Atleast 400 Arjun Mk IIs

 

[Echo_419]

Cool. .. Two things things can be should be done : Order more number of MK 2 But need to ramp up overall infrastructure like strengthen bridges etc

Or Make it lighter with Automation of many other systems to reduce the number men to two ...


Due to its weigh it's hard to use it on eastern border or very western Punjab region. T72 are used

Agreed the army should not give excuse of Infra,they should focus on developing infra for Heavy tanks just like many western countries use Heavy tanks

 

[Omega007]

Our F MBT will be less than MK2 or MK1 . Weight do maters. There was an article on why Army opting for Lighter MBTS . Which clearly talked about weak infrastructure . And complexity of using heavy MBT in our eastern mountain areas.

Nah,Army hasn't disclosed shit.It's all just mumbo jumbos propagated by the desi defence journos.

Due to its weigh it's hard to use it on eastern border or very western Punjab region. T72 are used

First of all mate,do try to understand that there is a word called context.You should have read my post more carefully before quoting it,since your comment is totally out context wrt my comment is concerned.

And secondly,please try to research a bit before making a claim,do not rush.It has been made clear multiple times that Arjun has lesser ground pressure than T 90.So if T 90s can be used in upper Punjab,then Arjuns can also be used there without any problem.