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End of US millitary dominance

Pakistan would self-destruct without the US defense umbrella.

So would most Arab states, Palestinians, and for along time...Europe.

Be careful what you wish for.

We'll come to the fact that your comments above are completely inaccurate later. To start with, if you wish to continue participating on this forum, fix your location flag. You are not based in the UK.
 
We'll come to the fact that your comments above are completely inaccurate later. To start with, if you wish to continue participating on this forum, fix your location flag. You are not based in the UK.

Pakistan has been under the US defense umbrella for quite some time.

I responded to your private message!

Military Performance , yes the Americans have been in Afghanistan since 2001 and still fail to control the entire country. More than half the country is run by Taliban and drug lords, heck even some neighbourhoods in Kandahar are controlled by Taliban. Pakistan's Army got serious about this menance before the Swat Operation and look at how much we have achieved, our performance against the Taliban has been much better than the American Side. As far as India is concerned, we are immune to any threat from the Indian Military because they are well aware that any Indian Aggression will be replied with ample force.

US performance in Afghanistan is far superior to Pakistans. I'm not disputing total gains, but pure performance - KD/ratio, actual Taliban kills, etc...USA has the edge by a mile.

And like I said, much of Pakistan's military machine is being financed directly by the Americans.

Protected , from who? Pakistan's problems worsened when the Americans invaded Afghanistan, before our Western Border was peacefull and secure.

Right, when Pakistan was busy supporting the Taliban and other Islamic radical groups - everything was honky dory and peaceful.

But then OBL thought it would sweet to chill in Pakistan's satellite...

Indeed, but your forgetting that this is not the 90's. US is not the only power anymore, if we want high tech weapons we can get it from China. Our war does rely on US weapons because after all they are the ones who started this war. We have proved that we can fight this war on our own by routing out the TTP in Swat and South Waziristan. The Americans have yet to do the same, they havent been serious about this war since the start. When Pakistan Army was pushing the Taliban at the other side of the border, why did the Americans pack up and leave instead of confronting the Taliban?.

Is China going to gift Pakistan 2 billion in annual military aid?

I doubt it.
 
Pakistan has been under the US defense umbrella for quite some time.

How so? I dont think we can call sanctioning Pakistan during a time of war(65, 71) could be called a defense umbrella. You are just making a baseless claim without any facts.

US performance in Afghanistan is far superior to Pakistans. I'm not disputing total gains, but pure performance - KD/ratio, actual Taliban kills, etc...USA has the edge by a mile.

So you rate performance on the basis of kill ratios and not total gains :lol:, am i getting this right. I guess in this case Nazi Germany was the victor on the Eastern Front in World War 2 since they killed 27 million Soviets. The Americans can kill as many foot soldiers of the Taliban as they want, the Taliban will just go to the villages and recruit more. What matters more is how much territory are the Americans controlling and what infleunce they have among the people. The Americans are loosing the war day by day because they are loosing the infleunce among the oridnary Afghans. I dont know how you came up with the conclusion that US has a edge by a mile, your simply dreaming too much.

And like I said, much of Pakistan's military machine is being financed directly by the Americans.

To fight the Taliban, Absolutely Yes. Afterall it were the Americans whom started this bloody war.

Right, when Pakistan was busy supporting the Taliban and other Islamic radical groups - everything was honky dory and peaceful.

Atleast they kept the peace, whether you like it or not Taliban are engraved in the Afghan Society. The Americans are learning it the hard way, you cannot simply impose Democracy on people who simply dont want it.

Is China going to gift Pakistan 2 billion in annual military aid?

I doubt it.

They have spent much more than that on Pakistan's Infrastructure, the amount of cooperation that exists between China and Pakistan far outstrips that with the USA. Your just making claims without the support of any evidence, next time better do your homework :coffee:
 
Pakistan has been under the US defense umbrella for quite some time.

I responded to your private message!



US performance in Afghanistan is far superior to Pakistans. I'm not disputing total gains, but pure performance - KD/ratio, actual Taliban kills, etc...USA has the edge by a mile.

And like I said, much of Pakistan's military machine is being financed directly by the Americans.



Right, when Pakistan was busy supporting the Taliban and other Islamic radical groups - everything was honky dory and peaceful.

But then OBL thought it would sweet to chill in Pakistan's satellite...



Is China going to gift Pakistan 2 billion in annual military aid?

I doubt it.

You are welcomed here to participate in this forum, but you should talk sense... I mean you are only trying to prove your point without any pure justification and crap knowledge of your own.

AID America gives us is in their own interest.. All equipment they give us are all in their own interest. They cannot expect us to help them to get out of their pathetic situation free of cost.. Everything has a price and nothing is free.

BTW America is not friend of us as betrayed us when we needed help..
and love of America u are witnessing for Pakistan is just because they need us..
 
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Pakistan has been under the US defense umbrella for quite some time.

If repeating lies over and over made it the truth, a lot of your problems would be solved. Unfortunately for you, this is not how it works.

Pakistan was a SEATO/CENTO signatory for a brief period in the 50s and early 60s. As a consequence of the 1965 war with India, not only did the US not assist Pakistan, it embargoed us. Same thing happened in '71. This can be contrasted with US assistance to Israel, for example, which allowed Israel to narrowly escape being completely over-run by Arab forces in 1974. The US not only "gifted" Israel nuclear technology, but also re-armed it and made up its losses while the war was in progress, and then also sent USAF pilots to help the Israelis dig themselves out of a fairly deep hole. At the end of the day, you can look at these two war scenarios and drastically different US behaviour in both and your question is answered.

On May day, 1960, a U2 piloted by Gary Powers was shot down over the Soviet Union. Nikita Khruschev, then Premier of the USSR, threatened to nuke Peshawar since the U2 spyplanes were based out of Badaber Peshawar Air Base. The US did *not* respond with any statement clarifying that Pakistan was under a US nuclear umbrella, or that the US would counter Soviet nuclear strikes against Pakistan with a counter-strike against Soviet allies/territories. Pakistan was left alone to deal with a crisis of immense proportions. One that had been brought upon us because of the US! This, for you, is the US "umbrella" in Pakistan's case.

Then, through the 90s, as soon as the Soviet Union was defeated in Afghanistan and Pakistan was no longer needed, the country was sanctioned heavily as Bush the Elder refused to extend assurances regarding Pakistan's nuclear program. All the while, the US has aided Israel which is known to have over a hundred nuclear weapons. Not once has the US sanctioned Israel for its illegal nuclear weapons program. Now, again, you can compare the two cases and arrive at your own conclusions as to how much of an "umbrella" and what degree of support we have had from the US. They even sat on hundreds of millions of dollars of hard cash we had paid them for the purchase of F-16 jets. We didn't get the jets and we didn't even get our own damn money back. It took years before Clinton agreed to repay the amount in the form of agricultural produce! Yes, agricultural produce to a country which is a large producer and exporter of the same!

If Pakistan had actually been under the US umbrella, as you suggest, we would not be where we are, with a chequered history as allies. What we see as repeated US betrayal, disengagement and callousness - mostly now confirmed by Petraeus, Hillary Clinton and other American leaders in their elucidations on our past history - is what has shaped our attitude towards the US.

We would like to be friends, but we also know that the US has not seen us a friend even when they smiled and extended their hands to us for a warm handshake. We have been seen as a country that can be used to achieve short term goals, for a limited period of time. It is only now that the US swears up and down that it has corrected its attitude. Many of their officials have publicly accepted that they were wrong in their short-sighted approach in the past. But it remains to be seen how true they are to their word this time. I, for one, admire many things about the US - not their foreign policy - but many other intrinsic qualities in the US people, and would like to see the two countries be fast friends for the long term. Let us see if the future takes shape this way. The past was far removed from this camaraderie, though. That's for sure.
 
Pakistan and US are like old couple , they fight on issues but need each other for their interests too even though US is in love with the girl next door "India".
 
How so? I dont think we can call sanctioning Pakistan during a time of war(65, 71) could be called a defense umbrella. You are just making a baseless claim without any facts.

token sanctions to appease the Western allies. USA was right behind Pakistan during the 1971 Bangladesh liberation war.

When's the last time any modern US leader has condemned or criticized Pakistan, ever?


So you rate performance on the basis of kill ratios and not total gains :lol:, am i getting this right. I guess in this case Nazi Germany was the victor on the Eastern Front in World War 2 since they killed 27 million Soviets. The Americans can kill as many foot soldiers of the Taliban as they want, the Taliban will just go to the villages and recruit more. What matters more is how much territory are the Americans controlling and what infleunce they have among the people. The Americans are loosing the war day by day because they are loosing the infleunce among the oridnary Afghans. I dont know how you came up with the conclusion that US has a edge by a mile, your simply dreaming too much.

Performance is based on K/R, not # of kills and territorial gains.

Pakistan has committed more troops to Afghanistan, but its performance on a per capita basis is a fraction of the USA.

Get it?

Why should the americans send their soldiers to die when Pakistan is willing to accept thousands of dead Pakistani soldiers?

USA simply doesn't have the stomach for such casualties.



To fight the Taliban, Absolutely Yes. Afterall it were the Americans whom started this bloody war.

Ah yes, because American became a home for Osama Bin Laden and provided tacit support for the Taliban and LeT.

Right.



Atleast they kept the peace, whether you like it or not Taliban are engraved in the Afghan Society. The Americans are learning it the hard way, you cannot simply impose Democracy on people who simply dont want it.

Pakistan used the Taliban to keep the peace. It supported the Taliban. The Taliban could have been disbanded after the soviets left.


They have spent much more than that on Pakistan's Infrastructure, the amount of cooperation that exists between China and Pakistan far outstrips that with the USA. Your just making claims without the support of any evidence, next time better do your homework :coffee:

I doubt it.


AID America gives us is in their own interest.. All equipment they give us are all in their own interest. They cannot expect us to help them to get out of their pathetic situation free of cost.. Everything has a price and nothing is free.

Of course American aid is in its own interest. Duh.

Pakistan has failed to live up to its commitment. I mean dear god, US weapons are finding themselves in the hands of TALIBAN MILITANTS!

Perhaps Pakistani should stop blaming Americans for their own corruption and self-inflicted wounds.

Pakistan was a SEATO/CENTO signatory for a brief period in the 50s and early 60s. As a consequence of the 1965 war with India, not only did the US not assist Pakistan, it embargoed us. Same thing happened in '71. This can be contrasted with US assistance to Israel, for example, which allowed Israel to narrowly escape being completely over-run by Arab forces in 1974. The US not only "gifted" Israel nuclear technology, but also re-armed it and made up its losses while the war was in progress, and then also sent USAF pilots to help the Israelis dig themselves out of a fairly deep hole. At the end of the day, you can look at these two war scenarios and drastically different US behaviour in both and your question is answered

A) Israel was embargoed by Europe and almost sanctioned by the USA in 1967. It was forced to retreat out of Egypt and agree to cease-fire, when it was in a position to destroy the Arab states for good. This paved the conditions for the yom kipurr war.

B) US never gifted US technology, ever. Eisenhower was prepared to sanction Israel because of its occupation of Gaza (taken in a defensive war with Egypt - see Sinai war), and Kennedy was threatening to turn Israel into the UN over its nuclear program.

c) US support during the yom kippur war was predicated on agreements made during 1967 where the US promised Israel's security in exchange for a cease-fire with the Arabs. Without the aid Israel would have been defeated.

Pakistan has never been on the brink of extinction, cept for the old India-Pakistan nuclear threats.

Then, through the 90s, as soon as the Soviet Union was defeated in Afghanistan and Pakistan was no longer needed, the country was sanctioned heavily as Bush the Elder refused to extend assurances regarding Pakistan's nuclear program. All the while, the US has aided Israel which is known to have over a hundred nuclear weapons.

A) Bush 1 sanctioned Israel of the settlements in spite of long-standing agreements with the USA over them

B) Pakistan was not an ally in the sense Israel was. Pakistan's nuclear program was bankrolled by Saudi Arabia, USA didn't care about it.

If Pakistan had actually been under the US umbrella, as you suggest, we would not be where we are, with a chequered history as allies. What we see as repeated US betrayal, disengagement and callousness - mostly now confirmed by Petraeus, Hillary Clinton and other American leaders in their elucidations on our past history - is what has shaped our attitude towards the US.

Nearly 30% of Pakistan's military is subsidized directly by the USA. 60,000+ US soldiers are fighting in a concerted effort with the Pakistani military. USA has spent 50,000,000,000+ protecting Pakistan and supporting its own operations in the country.

This says a lot considering Pakistan's ISI had a hand in 9/11 (reason why US is in afghanistan).

Pakistan and US are like old couple , they fight on issues but need each other for their interests too even though US is in love with the girl next door "India".

Hardly. USA has turned the other way because of Pakistan's support for LeT militants that have killed 100,000+ hindus since 1989. In fact, Obama planned on pressuring India to ends its occupation of Kashmir and force an agreement with Pakistan without demanding Pakistan end support for terrorist movements.

USA gives nothing to India, which should be an ally considering it is a natural ally (democracy, etc..)
 
americans dominance in economy already has been taken by china it is time to handover the superpower crown to china
 
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