DON'T HAVE ENOUGH JETS TO FIGHT 2 FRONT WAR INVOLVING CHINA AND PAKISTAN : IAF

[#hydra#]

what is the possibility of having to face BD air force as well? just in case the regime in BD is not as favourable as the current one? in such unlikely scenario .does IAF worry about deploying few air assets? I am not aware if India even has an airforce base on the eastern side?
would Indian aircraft carrier alone be enough for taking out the BD airforce?

Your post sounds like a sarcastic one,but still it's better to prepare for the worst scenario and hope for goodness...

 

[surya kiran]

That is crazy
My post was serious

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I was about to answer your questions Sir ! but the last line made me take my steps back I saw what you did

Navy and airforce are two different entities
Subject is on comments of Indian air chief

To clarify last line. I am suggesting the IN carrier ability to cover the flank in a hypothetical hostilities with BD

 

[Blue Marlin]

LOL... the people of India are pretty confident that India as a nation can survive pakistan and china. With or without IAF.

Our confidence is not dependent on the jabber of the latest or ex-IAF chiefs. It is dependent on what our Civilian leadership says. And so far they have not expressed any concern.

If its a number game, then LCA is the way to go. A second production line will give us the numbers within our budget.

well if our air lord (your equivalent of an air chief marshal) said that he would probably be drunk and would resign after. nobody says they cant fight against potential adversaries . you shut up, and keep it to yourself, and work quietly for a solution and at the same time give your people confidence.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Just in the spirit of what the Indian air chief is speculating, I just added the BD factor as well

and the counter argument to anyone rubbishing my suggestion is that BD becoming hostile is as unlikely as India having to face/ open two active fronts against both China and Pakistan It has never happened before has it?

Also, my comment about Indian Navy's combat air arm vs BD air force was not meant to be condescending towards BD air force. While asking the question originally I realized that I was missing the Indian Navy and its carrier here (which back in the 71 war played a very successful part).

so, for the sake of the wargaming and staying true to a hypothetical scenario of India facing multi-pronged air hostilities, I decided that IAF would have to worry much about BD air force’s sneak attack as it can be kept at check and reduced to a defensive role in the presence of Indian aircraft carrier and its entire support group in bay of Bengal.

People, sometimes do allow yourself a healthy and informative debate instead of sarcasm and insults, before you know it you will be spiting blood and poison from your nostrils and behinds if this habit translates into your daily life.

Your post sounds like a sarcastic one,but still it's better to prepare for the worst scenario and hope for goodness...

read my answer in the above part.

 

[RoadRunner401]

Man your posts are funny keep it coming!!

Your signature:

A nation's strength ultimately consists in what it can do on its own, and not in what it can borrow from others: INDIRA GANDHI

And then this↓↓↓↓↓

IAF is getting Impatient about RAFALE

There will be more such news in the coming days
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@PARIKRAMA Sir Any good news on Rafale

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Seriously, Even Indian Carrier Air wing is an overkill for Bangladeshi Airforce.

IN carrier wing outnumber Bangladesh Air force 5:1 in Mig 29s, and is equal if F-7 of BAF are added to tally; off-course IN Carrier wing ,whollely mad eof Mig-29Ks, has technological superiority over BAF whose Mig-29s (S and UB) are also antique.

thanks for your commentary and supporting my point about IN carrier. just spare the readers from overt jingoism and keep the discussion objective

 

[Shankranthi]

well if our air lord (your equivalent of an air chief marshal) said that he would probably be drunk and would resign after. nobody says they cant fight against potential adversaries . you shut up, and keep it to yourself, and work quietly for a solution and at the same time give your people confidence.

Which is exactly why people don't take the IAF chief seriously.

If he really thought that, he would not saying it out loud without serious consequences.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

whats the purpose of this post??? Why are you waging your lungi here?

I think I am the culprit here by including BD into equation
and by the way his post is very relevant to what IAF is talking about.
I cant help but admire the commitment of IAF pilots if they are taking pills to stay on top of their game.

 

[INDIAPOSITIVE]

Indian Air Force admits can’t fight China, Pak at the same time

SOURCE: HINDUSTAN TIMES

Indian Air Force vice-chief, Air Marshal BS Dhanoa, admitted on Thursday that it did not have sufficient number of warplanes to fight a two-front war, setting off alarm bells about the country’s ability to tackle a combined threat from China and Pakistan.

“Our numbers are not adequate to fully execute an air campaign in a two-front scenario,” Dhanoa said, drawing attention to the sharp drawdown of India’s fighter fleet. The count of IAF’s fighter squadrons has shrunk to 33 compared to a desirable strength of 42, a capability gap the air force is struggling to fill.

It is rare for top military commanders to make such a startling public admission, even though parliamentary panels have raised questions about India’s ability to fight the two adversaries at the same time – a worrying scenario that the IAF describes as ‘Contingency-III.’

“Probability of a two front scenario is an appreciation which you need to do. But are the numbers adequate? No. The squadrons are winding down,” said Dhanoa, who is in line to become IAF chief on December 31, 2016.

The admission comes days before the IAF carries out a firepower demonstration in Pokhran – the site for India’s underground nuclear detonation – on March 18. The spectacle will involve 181 planes including 103 fighter jets. President Pranab Mukherjee and PM Narendra Modi are expected to witness exercise Iron Fist-2016, held every three years.

The only defence attaches not invited to witness the exercise, whose tagline is ‘Demonstrating the Capability to Punish,’ are from China and Pakistan. The IAF said it was a collective decision of the ministry of external affairs and the defence ministry to leave them out.

The IAF’s plans to scale up its capabilities have hit several hurdles, including delay in the light combat aircraft (LCA) project, scrapping of a deal to buy 126 modern fighter jets and stalemate in the Rafale purchase.

The existing fleet consists of 14 squadrons of ageing MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighters that will be retired in phases by 2024. Each fighter squadron consists of about 18 planes.

Russian-origin Su-30 fighters account for about 10 squadrons but the fleet is plagued by engine troubles and is also battling poor serviceability. The remaining nine squadrons consist of Mirage 2000 fighters, Jaguars and MiG-29s. The IAF hopes to add more muscle with the induction of the LCA, more Su-30s, Indo-Russian fifth-generation fighter aircraft and possibly a medium-weight fighter that could be built in India in collaboration with a foreign player.

The IAF had told a Parliamentary panel in February 2014 that Pakistan would certainly fish in troubled waters if China were to launch offensive operations against India. It, however, stressed that China may not pose “a collusive threat” if hostilities were to break out between India and Pakistan.

On the sale of eight F-16s to Pakistan, Dhanoa said it would not drastically alter the air power balance in the region but “it makes my life more difficult” as the IAF has to field a more hi-tech platform against it.

“War, conflict or adventure takes place when he (the enemy) has a doubt about your deterrence. If you demonstrate your deterrence, then he knows that he will be hit very badly.” He added that Iron Fist was designed to send a message to the “other side” that “they do not have a military option.”

 

[AnnoyingOrange]

Bigger question is... will there ever be a two front war that Pakistani cyber brigade dreams of... is China willing to risk a 60 Billion Dollar Annually trade that is highly skewed in China's favor.... against a 19 Billion Trade with Pakistan?

Two front War my AZZ....

 

[EAK]

Is this really a news to you guys .. Definitely you can't fight two front war..no country can..it's a day dreaming from a military perspective ... indian press is chuti**a seriously

Hajur, first of all lemme ask, how many of IN ships will be able to sail, and how many will blow up at berth by themselves? IN is no military force. With a wife swapping officer corps? No way.

Spot on..

Bigger question is... will there ever be a two front war that Pakistani cyber brigade dreams of... is China willing to risk a 60 Billion Dollar Annually trade that is highly skewed in China's favor.... against a 19 Billion Trade with Pakistan?

Two front War my AZZ....

Well it's your presstitute which is going gaga over such idiot theories..not any cyber brigade.. get your head out of your @$$ ..

 

[Abingdonboy]

On topic, Depleting sq strength is an issue which we have discussed very very detailed over many times.. @Abingdonboy knows how we have talked till death on 2022 2030 both time lines the IAF strength if we dont get new jets and the reality of potency of the fleet..

What IAF chief Raha said is nothing new.. He needs Rafales and he needs Plenty of them.. He will not say so explicitly but he knows what IAF wants ... That coupled with 15-20 sqds of LCA over next 14 years is the actual reality..

BTW for all other readers, dont start a troll fight.. unnecessary bans will come over meaningless replies to trolls..better neglect/ignore those posts..

Was it the ACM or VCOAS (vice chief of air staff) who made these comments bro? I'm on my phone right now so haven't got access to the full text but I read some interesting comments from the VCOAS on this topic early this morning. He basically said exactly what we have been saying for who long now? The IAF needs 400-500 Rafale by 2025 and 106 LCA MK.1A will be in service by 2023 that still leaves a shortfall of 300-400 or so jets. Even assuming another 40 LCAs are inducted between 2023 and 2025 and another 40 MKIs are inducted that still leaves a requirement for 200-300 or so jets ie the Rafale. Just to confirm. The will be 0 FGFA in operational IAF service prior to 2025, the IAF is not looking beyond another 40-60 MKIs (confirmed) and the AMCA isn't going to be in service before 2030- guaranteed.


But India is only going for 36 off the shelf Rafales, right? Seriously, who is stupid enough to fall that nonsense these days?


If Dassualt blows this they don't deserve to do any more business in India, THIS really is the mother of all deals (discounting all the silly hype around the MMRCA). A minimum of 200 or so Rafales are required by the IAF by 2025 and by 2027 the IN will require at least 60 (or 85 if the IN opts for the Rafale-M for the IAC-1 sister ship).

Worst case, there is an outstanding requirement for 250 MMRCA (combining IAF and IN requirements) by 2027, best case there is a requirement for >350 MMRCA (again combining IN and IAF requirements ) come 2027.

Interesting times.

well if our air lord (your equivalent of an air chief marshal) said that he would probably be drunk and would resign after. nobody says they cant fight against potential adversaries . you shut up, and keep it to yourself, and work quietly for a solution and at the same time give your people confidence.

Really? Maybe that's how it works in opaque societies like China or Pakistan but in democracies where the budgets are controlled by civilian governments the military is constantly making their case for larger budgets in line with greater threats. This happens in the UK and US all the time, in fact the UK military is probably the most guilt of it (by necessity) given how badly the civilian governments treat the military (SDSR 2010). It's totally unreasonable to expect the military to simply "make do", no amount of clever tactics can overcome a pronounced quantity shortfall and thus the public and civilians need to be made aware by using such language. This situation has existed for a long long time but little remedial action has been taken so why can't the military express their point of view?


And @Shankranthi is totally incorrect to say the civilians are silent in the matter. The parliamentary standing committee on defence has numerous times noted the HUGE shortfall in numbers as a matter of concern for the IAF and has explicitly stated this impacts the IAF's abilities to fight a two front war. In fact this very committee has proposed increasing the sanctioned of the IAF to 45 SQNs by 2025 from the current 42 figure. My friend @PARIKRAMA will be able provide you the relevant reports from the standing committee on defence.


Don't shoot the messenger, the IAF is making a fair point and pushing for superior decision making not necessarily more money- the money is there is just isn't being spent.

Which is exactly why people don't take the IAF chief seriously.

If he really thought that, he would not saying it out loud without serious consequences.

The IAF has been saying this behind closed doors for a long time but if the civilians are too inept to get the correct course of action moving then why direct your anger to the IAF for simply stating the facts? Only a fool wouldn't take these words seriously. It's like 1962, the military said again and again that India wasn't in a shape to fight a war but the civilians pushed for it and look what happened. The military will continue to do their job, they are just asking the civilians to do their job- how unreasonable(!). The very attitude you are showing is exactly the one the civilians showed during the height of the trainer crisis when cadets and instructors were being killed because those useless civilians were failing in their roles and it it was the MiG-21 "flying coffins". But of course, the IAF should just shut up and accept it. Who cares if a few pilots die, who cares if they are in no shape to fight an ever expanding enemy, right?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@Abingdonboy My bad its VCOAS.. corrected that
.. When you ge time the Rafale news pls post it to the sticky.. It will the validate and prove what we have been saying for so long.. we will have interesting discussions there.. bcz the timeline will have some hiccups with such demands..

Will await in Rafale sticky then

 

[Blue Marlin]

Really? Maybe that's how it works in opaque societies like China or Pakistan but in democracies where the budgets are controlled by civilian governments the military is constantly making their case for larger budgets in line with greater threats. This happens in the UK and US all the time, in fact the UK military is probably the most guilt of it (by necessity) given how badly the civilian governments treat the military (SDSR 2010). It's totally unreasonable to expect the military to simply "make do", no amount of clever tactics can overcome a pronounced quantity shortfall and thus the public and civilians need to be made aware by using such language. This situation has existed for a long long time but little remedial action has been taken so why can't the military express their point of view?


And @Shankranthi is totally incorrect to say the civilians are silent in the matter. The parliamentary standing committee on defence has numerous times noted the HUGE shortfall in numbers as a matter of concern for the IAF and has explicitly stated this impacts the IAF's abilities to fight a two front war. In fact this very committee has proposed increasing the sanctioned of the IAF to 45 SQNs by 2025 from the current 42 figure. My friend @PARIKRAMA will be able provide you the relevant reports from the standing committee on defence.


Don't shoot the messenger, the IAF is making a fair point and pushing for superior decision making not necessarily more money- the money is there is just isn't being spent.

really.
if they want more money then they should not go crying to the media so they can shame the government. of course if they do need money they do have the right to ask for it, but not make it public.
as for the squadron numbers i think you will find that iaf has 33squadrons [1] and that number will go down as the mig 21/27 are being retired, and they make up for 14 squadrons[2] but then again you need about 252 aircraft to fill that void. sure the tejas is built for the void but the mk2's are gonna be ready beyond 2020.
realistically the iaf will have 42-45 squadrons by about 2035.
now im not gonna consider the availability rate here for the mki's, jaguars and the mig-29's. the mk2 are rock solid and good to go (the upgraded ones)



[1] Do not have the numbers to fully fight two-front war: IAF - The Hindu
[2] Combat ready? IAF down to 25 fighter squadrons | india | Hindustan Times