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Discussion: Why Pakistan’s F-16s do not have in-flight refuelling support ....

C-130 system looks more prominent for Pakistan. as we already handling this aircraft so we can convert 2 of our C-130's for refueling purpose and it would be easy to maintain this platform.
 
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C-130 system looks more prominent for Pakistan. as we already handling this aircraft so we can convert 2 of our C-130's for refueling purpose and it would be easy to maintain this platform.

Maybe some issues with Her cruise vs. figure stall minimum.
 
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Maybe some issues with Her cruise vs. figure stall minimum.

We have the chance now. as we're going to upgrade the whole fleet of C-130's we can put forward our requirements to "Rockwell Collins" to make 2 of C-130 upgrade as per refueller Aircraft. if there would be need of over hauling or any other minor changing's we can make that happen in Kamra.

As "ACM Aman" has said we're still looking forward for more F-16's from US and used one's from other countries to complete the century so PAF would surely need the Refuellers to hit the mark.
 
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Isn't the CARTs system developed by an Israeli company, if so PAF getting it seems unlikely.
The ART/S was developed by Sargent Fletcher company of the UK. This is a subsidiary company of Cobham plc. Cobham was founded as Flight Refuelling Limited (FRL) at RAF Ford in Sussex by Sir Alan Cobham in 1934.
http://www.cobham.com/mission-systems/air-to-air-refuelling/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobham_plc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sargent_Fletcher

"Four companies teamed up to develop the Conformal Air Refueling Tanker/System (CARTS). The CARTS development, led by the Lockheed Martin Skunk Works, has been in the works since July 2007. Lockheed Martin (USA) is responsible for overall system engineering, integration, aircraft modification, and project leadership; Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (India) is responsible for CARTS tank design and probe integration; Flight Refueling Limited (UK) is responsible for the telescoping fuel probe design and integration; and Israeli Aerospace Industries Limited (Israel) is responsible for technical consulting associated with the tank design.
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A similar concept (ART/S®) has been developed before by Sargent Fletcher. They modified a 370-Gallon wing tank to accept a retractable probe that permitted an F-16 aircraft to receive fuel from a Probe/Drogue-equipped tanker.
Tests were conducted with the ART/S® installed on the specially configured F-16 Variable Stability In-flight Simulator Test Aircraft (VISTA). These test flights confirmed that the ART/S® was compatible with various aircraft computer programs."
http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article4163.html

From the similarity between the old pod-based ART/S and the CARTS, you can deduce a bit about the distribution of the work...

"The F-16 program investigated fourteen different types of refueling probes during these early studies. The design choices were based on probe type (fixed, pivoting, telescoping), mounting location (over-wing, underwing, strake, fuselage, external tank), and probe shape (straight, small dogleg, large dogleg). Two designs were flight tested on F-16s: a straight probe mounted on top of the wing and a large dogleg probe mounted on an external, underwing, fuel tank. The flight tests, in the early 2000s, were limited to flying qualities and dry hookups with a variety of tanker aircraft. None of the hookups involved the actual transfer of fuel from the tanker to an F-16.
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The most likely air forces to incorporate CARTS into their F-16 fleets are those that operate probe-and-drogue tankers and that have F-16s equipped to carry conformal fuel tanks. The capability, however, received additional impetus more recently with the advent of the competition for the Indian Air Force Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft, or MMRCA.
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Lockheed Martin funded the project, which covered the design, procurement, construction, assembly, testing, and demonstration of two CARTS tanks and three aircraft modification kits. The modification of the F-16 plumbing system, exterior lighting, and cockpit control for the demonstration was performed in the United Arab Emirates.
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'We modified the aircraft in the UAE because it was easier and quicker than bringing another Block 60 F-16 into the US to modify and then send it right back to the UAE on the way to India for the field trials.'
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The CARTS-equipped F-16 successfully received fuel from both a modified DC-10 and an Indian Air Force Ilyushin Il-78 tanker aircraft and made approximately forty aerial refueling contacts.
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The overall design and development effort is a collaboration between four companies from four nations: Lockheed Martin is responsible for overall system engineering, integration, aircraft modification, and project leadership; Hindustan Aeronautics Limited in India is responsible for CARTS tank design and probe integration; Cobham Mission Systems in the United Kingdom is responsible for the telescoping fuel probe design and integration; and Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd. in Israel is responsible for technical consulting associated with the tank design."
http://www.codeonemagazine.com/article.html?item_id=56
 
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We have the chance now. as we're going to upgrade the whole fleet of C-130's we can put forward our requirements to "Rockwell Collins" to make 2 of C-130 upgrade as per refueller Aircraft. if there would be need of over hauling or any other minor changing's we can make that happen in Kamra.

As "ACM Aman" has said we're still looking forward for more F-16's from US and used one's from other countries to complete the century so PAF would surely need the Refuellers to hit the mark.

The F16 stall speed will not allow AAR with Herc, same issue with Mir

We have the chance now. as we're going to upgrade the whole fleet of C-130's we can put forward our requirements to "Rockwell Collins" to make 2 of C-130 upgrade as per refueller Aircraft. if there would be need of over hauling or any other minor changing's we can make that happen in Kamra.

As "ACM Aman" has said we're still looking forward for more F-16's from US and used one's from other countries to complete the century so PAF would surely need the Refuellers to hit the mark.

Collins SOW as per our our LOR and LOA is limited to their avionics for the birds. USG is proving other material such as OWs as part of the our LOR and LOA.
 
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An attempt was made at Pia 310 tanker conversion, airbus said but 330 and our pockets said "go to hell"
 
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Isn't the CARTs system developed by an Israeli company, if so PAF getting it seems unlikely.

Ok, so not the Carts, but something similar, from an American company would be fine for Pakistan.
 
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Ok, so not the Carts, but something similar, from an American company would be fine for Pakistan.

The Americans are not going to provide any air refueling capability for the F-16s. The fact that we are operating F-16s is already a problem for the Americans. Our defence relations with the US is a thing of the past.

You just need to look at the acquisitions in the past few years. China tops the list. The US doesn't even make it on the list.
 
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The Americans are not going to provide any air refueling capability for the F-16s. The fact that we are operating F-16s is already a problem for the Americans. Our defence relations with the US is a thing of the past.

You just need to look at the acquisitions in the past few years. China tops the list. The US doesn't even make it on the list.

When and If the US interests turn again, adding a Conformal fuel tank based refueling system would be a small upgrade compared to an upgrade to the radar. I'm not expecting it, just stating it should be an upgrade the PAF should peruse, if given the chance.
 
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When and If the US interests turn again, adding a Conformal fuel tank based refueling system would be a small upgrade compared to an upgrade to the radar. I'm not expecting it, just stating it should be an upgrade the PAF should peruse, if given the chance.

That is very unlikely to happen since the Americans cannot afford to piss off their lackey India. You and I know that Indian obsession revolves around Pakistan.

We need to get one thing dead straight. The Americans have found themselves yet another enemy and this time it is China. As long as China is developing and rising the Americans are going to aid their slave India. The best possible American bet against China is India. Be it a very incompetent one.

China won't go down. This is going to be a very long tussle. One that the Americans have every chance of losing. Also remember that Pakistan has already picked a side. We are allied with China. It is very unlikely that Pakistan is going to receive any Western weaponry in the future.
 
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Pakistan-F-16-refuelling-2013-692x360.png


A Pakistan Air Force F-16B refueling mid-air with the support of a USAF KC-135 during Red Flag 2010.

Discussion: Why Pakistan’s F-16s do not have in-flight refuelling support


Foreword: This is not a news story, but a piece for the purpose of discussion. The details offered in this article as well as in subsequent parts are not authoritative pieces of information, but rather, perspectives on the Pakistan Air Force’s options in terms of in-flight refuelling aircraft.

For the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), the F-16 serves as both its current qualitative driver (in terms of bringing new air warfare technologies to the fleet) and mainstay multi-role fighter.

Besides serving in the front as the PAF’s principal long-range air defence asset (which is gradually being supplemented with the JF-17), the F-16 has also been a major counterinsurgency (COIN) strike asset in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA).

With a total of 74 F-16s (i.e. 18 F-16C/D Block-52+, 45 F-16A/B Block-15 Mid-Life Update, and 13 F-16A/B Block-15 Air Defence Fighter), it is interesting to observe that the PAF does not possess an in-flight refuelling tanker that could support this key force. In fact, when the PAF’s F-16s are deployed overseas to participate in exercises, such as Red Flag and Anatolian Eagle, they require in-flight refuelling support from U.S. Air Force (USAF) KC-135 Stratotankers.

If one is wondering why the PAF’s IL-78 tankers cannot be used to support the F-16s, the answer lies in the fact that the F-16s utilize a different aerial refueling system than what the IL-78 is configured to use. The IL-78s refuel using the hose-and-drogue method, which is designed with a trailing hose with a receiver basket at its end, which connects to an external refuelling probe on the receiver.

The PAF’s Mirages – and in the short-term JF-17s – refuel using the hose-and-drogue method. On the other hand, the F-16s require a refuelling boom, which connects to a fuel receiver system in the fuselage. The main benefit behind boom-refuelling is the higher rate of fuel transfer. However, only U.S. designs utilize this method, the rest of the world – from the Western Europeans to the Chinese – depend on hose-and-drogue, which is simpler to integrate onto receiver as well as tanker platforms.

When the PAF began pursuing an in-flight tanker, it was fully aware of the F-16’s specific needs. It was for this reason that the PAF had originally hoped to secure the Airbus A310 Multi-Role Tanker Transport (MRTT) system for its fleet. The Airbus A310 MRTT was introduced in the early 2000s for the German and Canadian forces. Airbus Defence and Space (then known as the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company or EADS) utilized existing A310s for the MRTT modification, which imbued the airliner with not only a boom refueling probe but also wing-mounted hose-and-drogue probes.

The A310 MRTT was a comparatively low-cost option (considering the offering was primarily modification and added subsystems for surplus A310 airliners). Unfortunately for the PAF, Airbus had pivoted away from A310 MRTT and instead began to exclusively push the A330 MRTT.

While based on the Airbus A330 airliner, the A330 MRTT is offered as a new-built solution. In other words, the airframe is built with in-flight refuelling and military airlift tasks from the onset. While a very capable platform, the A330 MRTT was – and still is – a prohibitively expensive system for the PAF. The complete approximate unit cost of each A330 MRTT sits at $250 million U.S.

The PAF could have sought surplus KC-135s from the U.S., but shaky defence ties, as well as the prospect of dealing with heavily aged airframes, would have put a stop on that road. In effect, the PAF’s F-16s have been left with no in-flight refuelling support, which in some respects caps the fighter from achieving better operational potential. Without in-flight refuelling, the F-16s would have to depend on external fuel pods in order to undertake extended-range or long-endurance flights. These pods force a cost in having fewer available hardpoints for air-to-air and/or air-to-surface munitions.

The PAF’s plans for addressing this issue are not known. In fact, it simply may not pursue a solution at all. However, it may be worth – for discussion’s sake – exploring the idea of a new dual-configuration tanker (i.e. one capable of hose-and-drogue and boom-refuelling). The upfront cost of the A330 MRTT is certainly high, but other considerations ought to be made as well.

First, the A330 MRTT would not be restricted to just supporting the F-16s, it can support the PAF’s hose-and-drogue assets, such as the JF-17, as well.

Second, the A330 MRTT airframe is that of a commercially popular airliner, so it is an inherently fuel-efficient design. In fact, the A330 is powered by two turbofan engines (in contrast to the IL-78’s four), so the overall fuel demand of the A330 MRTT should be less than that of the IL-78. The airline aspect could also render the availability of spare parts and maintenance support a relatively low-cost effort.

Third, the A330 MRTT can carry passengers or cargo in addition to fuel. In other words, if the PAF deploy a fighter unit for exercises, a lone MRTT unit could (potentially) be sent to provide tanker support as well as serve as a general transport. Granted, this is conditional on a number of factors, such as the location of the exercise (e.g. a single MRTT to provide complete support for Red Flag may be unrealistic).

Granted, the PAF’s scope of acquisitions is not wide at this time. In fact, unless the PAF opts to configure its next-generation fighter for boom refuelling, the long-term utility of pursuing a boom-type tanker will diminish as F-16s are retired. Unless there is an infusion of additional – and fresher – F-16s, the necessity for the A330 MRTT for the sake of its boom-refuelling capability is limited. If the PAF is to consider this system, it would be on the basis of fuel efficiency, versatility, and maintenance costs (though this would require one to assume the IL-78 is costlier to maintain). Furthermore, the A330 MRTT is a platform the PAF could operate for many decades, which may help offset the high upfront price.
Source should have been mentioned giving credit to QUWA.
https://quwa.org/2016/10/11/discussion-pakistans-f-16s-not-flight-refuelling-support/

There are two simple solutions which make F-16 directly compatible with probe-and-drogue refuelling systems:

A) Traditional fuel tank with integral probe i.e. the Sargent Fletcher Aerial Refueling Tank/System (ART/S) pod
sargent-fletcher-art-s-pod-aerial-refueling-tank.jpg

f-16-vista-sargent-fletcher-art-s-pod.jpg

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B) Conformal dorsal fuel tanks with integral probe (preferable, since it leaves hardpoints free) i.e. the Conformal Air Refuelling Tanker/System (CARTS)

4.JPG


tumblr_n9xzhzHDxo1txx6x7o3_1280.jpg


tumblr_n9xzhzHDxo1txx6x7o4_1280.jpg


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Both should be available from COBHAM PLC (which gobbled up Sargent Fletcher)
http://www.cobham.com/mission-systems/air-to-air-refuelling/

IL-78 refuelling system is compatible with Western jets, specifically Mirage III/IV/2000
PAF%E2%80%99s+Mirage-III+Rose-I+with+refueling+kits+M.jpg



Pic's or source ref's pls!

Yar koi iss banday PENGUIN ko wapis le ayo. Yeh bahut mehnat se eik eik cheez explain karta tha.
 
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