Demonised for defending cartoons of the Prophet: protests break out in Bangladesh

[Chhatrapati]

None of these countries care that you're chuckling, nor does anyone believe that India is a "liberal democracy" you absolute toss pot.

None of the French concern these orange beards are on the street screaming.

 

[bluesky]

Was the Muslim man who beheaded the teacher in France not faithfully practicing Islam's core doctrine of "Qital-fi-Sabilillah"?



Ridzwan Abdul Rahman
·
Sat

Qital fi sabilillah only applies when it meets the following condition:

And fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not commit aggression; God does not love the aggressors. (Quran 2:190)

The teacher was not fighting against any Muslim. All that he was doing was belittling or insulting Islam. In which case, the following verses apply:

And when you see those who engage in [offensive] discourse concerning Our verses, then turn away from them until they enter into another conversation. And if Satan should cause you to forget, then do not remain after the reminder with the wrongdoing people. (Quran 6:68)
And it has already come down to you in the Book that when you hear the verses of Allah [recited], they are denied and ridiculed; so do not sit with them until they enter into another conversation. Indeed, you would then be like them. Indeed Allah will gather the hypocrites and disbelievers in Hell all together (Quran 4:140)

As stated above, Islam does not allow Muslims to start a fight and can fight only in self-defence. And Muslims must not do anything to anyone who simply insults Islam (no physical attack). Muslims should simply leave them alone

 

[Bilal9]

There go Rafales out the window.
BAF will use this as a new excuse for not buying fighter jets.

Rafales are way too overpriced for their capabilities anyway, as Indians will find out soon. Indian dreams of assembling local indigenized components and weaning themselves off of French tek-na-laji dependence will basically evaporate and these will become hangar queens, expensive ones at that. Frenchies are too slick for Subramanian...

Refurb F-16's are probably way better and offer more bang for the buck, especially if we upgrade them with conformal tanks to F-16I SUFA standard. Or F-18 superhornets (maybe a squadron or two). Then back these up with 'numbers' jets like the J-10 (four to five squadrons eventually).

You have to see the level of battle readiness and war-fighting portfolio of an air superiority platform, the weapons fit-out etc. (even low tech options). There is no parallel to the evolutionary development of the F16 or the F-18 (esp. new super Hornet and Growler versions). I am impressed by how sturdy the F-18's are and how reliably they operate from local LA/SD airbases, day in, day out. Marines at Miramar (I visit the area often) put these birds through their paces and the MTBF has been extended way beyond early designs.

Dassault aircraft are good looking but that's about it. If there are better options then why choose French option?

This Macron guy thinks he can pull a fast one on Muslims and become the darling Hero of right wing Europe. I predict this will blow up in his face big time...

 

[CIA Mole]

You can think of Muslims as enemies, but don't mock what is dear to Muslims. Because then we will have to make you learn respect our presence.

 

[Bilal9]

#IStandWithFrance trends in India amid outrage in Muslim world

Hashtags in support of French President Emmanuel Macron on Indian Twitter as his remarks cause outrage among Muslims.

French President Emmanuel Macron gestures next to Indian PM Narendra Modi after a joint statement at the Chateau of Chantilly, near Paris, in this August 22, 2019 photo [File: Pascal Rossignol/Reuters]

27 Oct 2020

As Muslims across the world protest and broaden their calls for a boycott of French products over comments by President Emmanual Macron about Islam and depictions of the Prophet Muhammad, hashtags with a different message are trending in Hindu-majority India.

#IStandWithFrance and #WeStandWithFrance were among the top trends on Indian Twitter on Monday and Tuesday, with thousands of Indian users expressing their solidarity with France.

KEEP READING

Muslim world condemns Macron, France over treatment of Islam‘Boycott French products’ launched over Macron’s Islam commentsWhy Arabs are speaking out against Islamophobia in India‘Birds have landed’: French-made Rafale fighter jets reach India

Macron has sparked outrage across the Muslim world by accusing French Muslims of “separatism” and describing Islam as “a religion in crisis all over the world”.

The matter escalated after Macron said his country would not “renounce the caricatures” of Prophet Muhammad in the wake of the killing of a French teacher who showed them to his class.

That led to outrage in the Muslim world, with protesters in several Muslim-majority nations, including Turkey, Pakistan and Bangladesh, calling for a boycott of French goods and demanding the expulsion of the French ambassadors to their capitals.

However, in India, where critics say anti-Muslim sentiments have intensified since the right-wing Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) came to power in 2014, many rallied behind the French leader.

“Tolerance should be secular too. #IStandWithFrance. Well done French President,” tweeted Parvesh Sahib Singh, a BJP member of parliament.

Earlier this year, India received five French-made Rafale fighter jets, the first batch of a controversial $9.4bn deal with France signed in 2016.

Other hashtags related to Macron’s remarks that trended on Indian Twitter on Tuesday included #WellDoneMacron and #MacronTHEHERO.

Anti-Muslim sentiments in India

Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s government has been accused of pursuing anti-Muslim policies, with a controversial citizenship law that excludes the community being the most recent.

The Indian government defends the Citizenship Amendment Act (CAA), saying it aims to protect persecuted minorities in neighbouring Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan.

Protests over the law earlier this year led to the worst religious violence in New Delhi in decades, killing dozens of people, most of them Muslims, and displacing thousands.

Many Muslims have been charged under a stringent anti-terror law following the Delhi violence, jailed and denied bail.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1320963717769662464

Last week, UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Michelle Bachelet’s office pointed to three “problematic” Indian laws – including the CAA – that have led to the arrest of activists.

Since 2014, dozens of Muslims have also been lynched by Hindu mobs over suspicions of slaughtering cows, considered sacred by many Hindus.

Rights groups have criticised India for a slow rate of conviction in cases of hate crimes against Muslims.

#IStandWithFrance trends in India amid outrage in Muslim world

Hashtags in support of President Emmanuel Macron on Indian Twitter as his remarks cause outrage among Muslims.

www.aljazeera.com

If they hate Muslims so much, then why do Bhartiya folks flock to the Middle East for Bhikhari worse-than-slavery Nokri and the occasional thrashing that come with it??

Height of Shamelessness of Indians when you think about the remittance from Muslim countries that are taken in by Indians, including that non-Middle-East country which Indians call 'Kangladesh' - to the tune of tens of Billion dollars every year by illegal immigrant Indian employment in Bangladesh, not to mention medical tourism in India by Bangladeshis (another ten Billion a year) which the Indians beg us for, and then begging us again to buy third rate Indian toiletries, fast-moving consumer goods and shampoo (again another ten Billion a year).

That is a total of $30 Billion a year (known only) from a non-Hindu, non-Middle East country you Hindutva Bigots!! Keeping your toilet-le$$ country afloat!!

Where is your shame you hypocrite Sanghis?? Forgotten where your roti-rooji comes from? Chhota mu'mey bada baat...

Talking on both sides of your mouth??

 

[DalalErMaNodi]

If they hate Muslims so much, then why do Bhartiya folks flock to the Middle East for Bhikhari worse-than-slavery Nokri and the occasional thrashing that come with it??

It's not occasional, it's quite regular...

These khaleejis dare not pakistani because they'll hit back and Bangladeshis ? Nobody dares to lay a finger on our people since 2006 rioting, our lads bought Kuwait to it's knees, corrupt sponsors were being thrown off the roof tops of their own fancy villas.


Bengalis have a notorious reputation here, there are many self help gangs, that thrash any Arab kafeel who harms a Bengali personally, if things get heated the sponsors are even beaten to death and left off in the desert, though I believe this is a little extreme.



Anyway, it's only Indians who get whacked and regularly at that, even as they get smacked they don't forget to address the Arab as father (Baba).



See for yourself, these people are spineless :

Boot licking is their way of life, they only act tough in India, online or when they outnumber you 10 to 2/1

 

[idune]

The French counter-revolution and Makho's 'Muslim' problem

Farooq Wasif
Updated: 28 October 2020, 15:49

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has strongly condemned French President Nicolas Sarkozy's remarks. Both are benefiting from this in their respective countries. AFP
The mantra of the French Revolution of 179 was equality, brotherhood and independence. When the word brotherhood was uttered in France, echoes could be heard from the liberating nations of Asia-Africa ... Now it is not heard so much. Now the words of hatred can be heard.
A tragic incident happened in Paris. The bodies of a French schoolteacher and a young man with a Chechen identity were found. French police say the Chechen youth strangled the schoolteacher. The Chechen youth was immediately shot dead by the police and there is no way to get his comment. Notably , the Twin Towers in the United States, the truck crash in France in 2015, the Shirley Ebdo attack, and this year's teacher killings the attackers were all shot dead by police on the spot. As a result, they do not have a chance to get a statement. However, the Chechen youth is a Muslim. And that schoolteacher named Samuel Patty believes in free speech. He showed in the classroom some insulting pictures of the Prophet of Islam, published in Shirley Ebdo , a hardline Islamophobic magazine for the tender- hearted children of his school . The parents of the Muslim children objected to this.
It is not clear how the Chechen youth got into the story. But he was found to be the killer of the French schoolteacher. The incident is not seen in the French media as a criminal offense for the murder of a person. This is seen as a crime of Muslims. The incident has caused a stir in French society. President Emanuel Makhon has awarded the slain teacher the highest honor in the state and declared war on "Islamic separatism". Parliament has introduced a new anti-Islamic separatist bill and pledged to reform French "Islam".
No event falls from the sky. Let's look at some important events before this.
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Anti-Semitism in France is now taking the form of Islamophobia. Politicians are benefiting from this. Turkey protests against French president's remarksAFP
President Makhon's attempt to cover up the failure
Last September, a well-known French company, IPSOS, published the results of a nationally conducted survey. The root of the damage is the result of that survey. It shows that 6% of French people think that France is heading for collapse under President Macho. Twenty-six percent are so frustrated that they think this decline cannot be stopped. There are no more days for the next presidential election. But President Makho has failed miserably in three serious places. Coping with the Corona epidemic, (accused of criminal negligence for not wearing a mask like President Trump's government), the historic recession of the French economy for Macho's erroneous economic policies and weakening the French social security system like Trump's self-interest. The award is the most unpopular in the history of France.
A day before the 2015 Paris attacks, the results of a survey by the French survey agency IFOP were published in the renowned La Figaro newspaper. The survey asked whether the French would accept an undemocratic government to implement the necessary reforms. 6 percent voted for unelected technocrats. 40 percent prefer an unelected authoritarian government. The survey gives an indication of how much a terrorist incident by Shirley Abdo has changed French public opinion. Needless to say, many civil rights are still suspended in France on the pretext of fighting terrorism. Whatever the purpose of the militant attack, they ultimately work unannounced for their declared enemies. Because undemocratic rulers benefit from it.
Makho needed to divert public attention for fear of losing the next election. To this end, on October 1, he introduced an anti-separatist bill targeting French Muslims.
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France's one-eyed 'Islam' philosophy
Muslims are the main religious minority in France. They make up about 6 million of the population and 8.5 percent of the population. They come from the former French colonies of Algeria, Morocco and other North African countries. Algerians who once arrived in French territory during the colonial period were recognized as citizens of France. They are a large part of the Muslim population. If France had not plundered their country, they would not have needed to come to France. Apart from that, France also needed them to meet the labor shortage. Despite hundreds of years of coexistence, the French state has not been able to equate its Muslim citizens.
The majority of French Muslims are poor slum dwellers, 30 percent of whom are unemployed. Due to their anti-Muslim attitude, they do not get private jobs, and the government is also intolerant. Muslim children cannot wear any religious attire or symbols in schools. Although it is a punishable offense in France to provoke controversy over the Holocaust, it is permissible to say or draw anything about the Prophet of Islam. French secularism was really fair, the ex-president Sarkozy, the son of a wealthy Jewish-daughter Shirley ebado newspaper could do a job for one of the author's delightful essay writing. In France the distance between religion and state is strictly observed. However, in 2013, the mayor of the city of Marseille remained outside the law by staging the birth scene of Jesus Christ in a public place like the town hall.
The minority problem of French secularism is historical. From the nineteenth century to the beginning of the twentieth century, France saw its secularism in contrast to the Jewish minority. French Jews were once exhausted from discrimination and deprivation. Later Muslims from the colony became a new minority. Is respect for people of different thoughts, beliefs or attitudes less important than freedom of speech? If freedom of speech is respected, then freedom of religion must also be respected. The French are being asked more and more because they have fought for equality, friendship, freedom and bloodshed.
The alliance between the French Revolution and Islam
What is more interesting is that these French Muslims were given the status of equality by a decision of the French Revolution itself. In 179, Muslims were granted full citizenship in the French National Assembly. According to the decree, French Muslims could sit as full citizens in all military and administrative positions and stand for election. Robespierre, the leader of the French Revolution, was inspired by the equality of Islam. In one of the paintings by the artist at that time, a revolutionary leader is seen holding the Jewish scripture Talmud and the Qur'an of Islam. Muslims were also involved in the French Revolution. The revolutionaries also expressed the call for revolution in Arabic. Ahmed Khan, the son of the Nawab of Gujarat, went to Paris in 1894 to show solidarity with the revolution and was inspired by India's independence. On his return he translated the declaration of the French Revolution into Persian. The French Revolution would not have lasted 90 days if the Muslim ruler of North Africa, Mohamed Gheis, had not shipped wheat. There was a famine in southern France at that time Running. When monarchical Europe was fighting for the destruction of the revolution, the only Muslim world was on France's side. In 1895, the Revolutionary Committee announced the translation of some important interfaith treaties in the history of Islam from Arabic into French. Napoleon was a young hero, a prince with a face covered with a burqa in Khorasan.
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The uprising of the poor in Paris in 2005, called the 'Paris Riot' and the Yellow West movement in 2019 were left-leaning. The 'Muslim problem' was created to divide them.AFP
Discover 'Muslim poker' to avoid protests by the poor and unemployed
If revolutionary France is Islam-friendly, then today's France must be called counter-revolutionary. The French public was incited against Muslims through the publication of Shirley Ebdo 's Islamophobic cartoons, anti-Muslim propaganda in mainstream newspapers, untrue propaganda on television talk shows, and fake news. In 2016, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch accused Muslims of excessive abuse and persecution during a police operation in France. Police raided 3500 Muslim homes after the November 2016 terrorist attacks. But there are only 8 anti-terrorism cases.
Militancy versus Islamophobia is not the case in today's France. The fight in France was capitalism versus the masses. The uprising of the poor in Paris in 2005, called the 'Paris Riot' and the Yellow West movement in 2019 were left-leaning. The right will not sit still. The French elite spread Islamophobia to increase their power. The 'Muslim problem' was created. They were represented by the extremist nationalist racist Law Payne. This fake 'Muslim problem' has succeeded in dispersing the alliance of the poor, the immigrants and the youth. This is how the French right sees its political future. They do not see that the state-sponsored military strikes in Muslim countries with Islamophobia are the cause of militancy.
Emanuel Makhon, who has failed politically and economically, has set sail in this wind. To divert attention from the real problems of the people, he was bringing in the theory of 'Islamic separatism' and anti-Muslim laws. As soon as Muslim NGOs and human rights groups came under fire, he found an example of a militant attack. On the occasion of the attack, he closed down many Muslim institutions and relinquished control of the police. According to a survey, 50 percent of French police and military personnel voted for the right in the last local elections. Islamophobia is taking the place of the virus of anti-Semitism in France. The secularism of France, which had become secular by expelling the Jews, is now strongly opposed to the Muslims.
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Muslims can also be the leaders of world humanity
But just as it is not possible to blame any people for the responsibility of the individual, Makhorai is not France, not Europe. Leaders of 40 countries rallied in Paris after the Shirley Abdo attack, saying, "I am Shirley Abdo too." But after the shooting death of 50 Muslims in a New Zealand mosque but the world did not show that solidarity, no one except the Prime Minister of New Zealand Jacinda symbolically said 'I am with the Muslims'.
Muslims will not be able to continue considering everyone in the world as an enemy. Just as Muslims need to have a place in the hearts of non-Muslims, Muslims need to have respect for non-Muslims and Western civilization in their hearts. Not only should we condemn any militant attack unconditionally, we should also work to keep our society free from this tendency. It is important to remember that the main victims of sabotage by any Muslim are the Muslim minority. Similarly, the politics of hatred against minorities eventually dragged the majority into the dark tunnel for a long time. The result of Hitler's anti-Semitism was catastrophic for Germany. The wave of anti-Muslim sentiment in India is holding back the lives of ordinary Indians, taking democracy to the brink.
Freedom of expression and freedom of thought are not one. Like person and it can be masalamakha ego or ego. Thought is based on objective, collective and neutral reasoning. Without the ability and freedom of thought, Muslims will not be able to establish their rights in the world. Hatred is a disorder of hatred in the name of expression, but freedom of thought helps to establish self-esteem. Thinkers are also wondering whether freedom of speech can be greater than human life and faith. If the purpose of freedom of speech is to establish a market of disrespect and hatred, then it is bound to become a hat market of Kanar.
The France that was the direction of humanity, that France is revolutionary. The French right and their president, Makho, are turning France into a counter-revolutionary through the politics of hatred. Makho has forgotten that he is not only the president of a country, he is also the leader of Europe. He did not act as a statesman by opening the fire of anti-Muslim hatred in Europe. But the provocation of the French counter-revolution did not allow them to become counter-revolutionaries. Every death is the death of man, every child is the child of humanity. Every country is a country of people. The human world cannot be expected without the dignity of human faith and identity.
Farooq Wasif: Assistant Editor and Writer of Prothom Alo.

ফরাসি প্রতিবিপ্লব ও প্রেসিডেন্ট মাঁখোর ‘মুসলিম’ সমস্যার রাজনীতি

ফ্রান্সের প্রেসিডেন্ট ও ডানপন্থিরা হারানো জনপ্রিয়তা ফেরত পাওয়ার আশায় আবিষ্কার করেছে মুসলিম জুজু। সনাতন ফরাসি ইহুদিবিদ্বেষের জায়গা নিচ্ছে ইসলামবিদ্বেষ। এর জবাবে জঙ্গিবাদী কার্যকলাপ মুসলমানদের জন্য আত্মঘাতী হচ্ছে। দেশে দেশে অসহিষ্ণুতাকে পুঁজি করে লাভবান হচ্ছেন জাতীয়তাবাদী নেতারা। অবাধ বাকস্বাধীনতা...

www.prothomalo.com

 

[Abu Shaleh Rumi]

None of the French concern these orange beards are on the street screaming.

OK. Mr Frenchman...

 

[Black_cats]

https://www.facebook.com/100004216879293/posts/1812363622247516

 

[Homo Sapiens]

#IStandWithFrance trends in India amid outrage in Muslim world

Hashtags in support of French President Emmanuel Macron on Indian Twitter as his remarks cause outrage among Muslims.

French President Emmanuel Macron gestures next to Indian PM Narendra Modi after a joint statement at the Chateau of Chantilly, near Paris, in this August 22, 2019 photo [File: Pascal Rossignol/Reuters]

27 Oct 2020

As Muslims across the world protest and broaden their calls for a boycott of French products over comments by President Emmanual Macron about Islam and depictions of the Prophet Muhammad, hashtags with a different message are trending in Hindu-majority India.

#IStandWithFrance and #WeStandWithFrance were among the top trends on Indian Twitter on Monday and Tuesday, with thousands of Indian users expressing their solidarity with France.

KEEP READING

Muslim world condemns Macron, France over treatment of Islam‘Boycott French products’ launched over Macron’s Islam commentsWhy Arabs are speaking out against Islamophobia in India‘Birds have landed’: French-made Rafale fighter jets reach India

Macron has sparked outrage across the Muslim world by accusing French Muslims of “separatism” and describing Islam as “a religion in crisis all over the world”.

The matter escalated after Macron said his country would not “renounce the caricatures” of Prophet Muhammad in the wake of the killing of a French teacher who showed them to his class.

That led to outrage in the Muslim world, with protesters in several Muslim-majority nations, including Turkey, Pakistan and Bangladesh, calling for a boycott of French goods and demanding the expulsion of the French ambassadors to their capitals.

However, in India, where critics say anti-Muslim sentiments have intensified since the right-wing Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) came to power in 2014, many rallied behind the French leader.

“Tolerance should be secular too. #IStandWithFrance. Well done French President,” tweeted Parvesh Sahib Singh, a BJP member of parliament.

Earlier this year, India received five French-made Rafale fighter jets, the first batch of a controversial $9.4bn deal with France signed in 2016.

Other hashtags related to Macron’s remarks that trended on Indian Twitter on Tuesday included #WellDoneMacron and #MacronTHEHERO.

Anti-Muslim sentiments in India

Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s government has been accused of pursuing anti-Muslim policies, with a controversial citizenship law that excludes the community being the most recent.

The Indian government defends the Citizenship Amendment Act (CAA), saying it aims to protect persecuted minorities in neighbouring Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan.

Protests over the law earlier this year led to the worst religious violence in New Delhi in decades, killing dozens of people, most of them Muslims, and displacing thousands.

Many Muslims have been charged under a stringent anti-terror law following the Delhi violence, jailed and denied bail.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1320963717769662464

Last week, UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Michelle Bachelet’s office pointed to three “problematic” Indian laws – including the CAA – that have led to the arrest of activists.

Since 2014, dozens of Muslims have also been lynched by Hindu mobs over suspicions of slaughtering cows, considered sacred by many Hindus.

Rights groups have criticised India for a slow rate of conviction in cases of hate crimes against Muslims.

#IStandWithFrance trends in India amid outrage in Muslim world

Hashtags in support of President Emmanuel Macron on Indian Twitter as his remarks cause outrage among Muslims.

www.aljazeera.com

Some stupid Indian may be planning to give Macron the status of a dewta like they have given to Trump. These bigot Hindus will pour milk on the head of Macron idol instead of giving that milk to their malnourished children. This is the level of their hatred for Muslims. These coward Hindus have no gut to confront Muslims, but will always do hanuman dance if any of their white master attack Muslims.

I am not generalizing all the good Hindus out there. Only some Hindus related to BJP/RSS are these type of pathetic, hateful bigot.

 

[bluesky]

What's up with France and Turkey?

Mats Andersson's answer: A French magazine published insulting images of the Prophet Mohammed, some years ago. In France, this is a right protected by law, but it is also more than that. It is a right that thousands of French have fought and died for. Many were tortured to death, by the Christia...

www.quora.com

What's up with France and Turkey?



Mats Andersson
·
17h ago
Professional Translator English into Swedish (1991–present)
A French magazine published insulting images of the Prophet Mohammed, some years ago.
In France, this is a right protected by law, but it is also more than that. It is a right that thousands of French have fought and died for. Many were tortured to death, by the Christian Church or the Nazis, when they fought for free speech through the centuries.
The right to be insulting is as sacred to the French, as the Prophet is to Muslims. It is a central part of their identity; it defines what France is.

And only a few days ago, someone in France killed someone who had displayed these images for educational purposes, in a discussion about free speech. Now, Erdogan has demanded that the French stop being French, so that they can accommodate people who are enemies of free speech. He has, in effect, demanded that free speech in France should only be allowed for Muslims. Everyone else must keep quiet on certain topics.

He demands that Turkish law is applied in France, instead of French law. Naturally, the French—Christian, Muslim, Jewish or atheist—are enraged at this. It is a studied insult, and a violent attack on everything that France is.

A few weeks ago, the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul was re-consecrated as a Muslim mosque. Now, imagine that a small group of French living in Turkey had occupied the mosque, killed the imam, and proceeded to wipe their bottoms with pages from the Quran. And imagine that the French President Macron had demanded an apology from Turkey. That’s how bad this is.

Yes, the infamous cartoons are certainly insulting, in bad taste, sacrilegious, and an affront to decent discourse. (And ugly, actually.) And yet, not only the French, but all Europeans defend them—because allowing them to be published is what we are. If we are to have a free society, we must allow also the gross, insulting, and enraging. Much worse insults to Christianity are published daily.

Some people get enraged, but it is still allowed to happen, because our laws do not care about our precious feelings, or anyone else’s. I have myself, long ago, pulled on a uniform and declared my willingness to die for your right to say things I find distasteful. I was willing to die for your right to insult me. You cannot understand Europe unless you understand this.

If your hatred of a free society is so intense that you cannot tolerate living in it, if your faith is so weak and fragile that you cannot tolerate to have it questioned, then leave, because you are free to leave—or stay and complain, because you are free to complain as much as you like, as long as all you use are words.

You can even start a political party to stop free speech. Just don’t expect to get many votes.

 

[Homo Sapiens]

What's up with France and Turkey?

Mats Andersson's answer: A French magazine published insulting images of the Prophet Mohammed, some years ago. In France, this is a right protected by law, but it is also more than that. It is a right that thousands of French have fought and died for. Many were tortured to death, by the Christia...

www.quora.com

What's up with France and Turkey?

Mats Andersson
·
17h ago
Professional Translator English into Swedish (1991–present)
A French magazine published insulting images of the Prophet Mohammed, some years ago.
In France, this is a right protected by law, but it is also more than that. It is a right that thousands of French have fought and died for. Many were tortured to death, by the Christian Church or the Nazis, when they fought for free speech through the centuries.
The right to be insulting is as sacred to the French, as the Prophet is to Muslims. It is a central part of their identity; it defines what France is.

And only a few days ago, someone in France killed someone who had displayed these images for educational purposes, in a discussion about free speech. Now, Erdogan has demanded that the French stop being French, so that they can accommodate people who are enemies of free speech. He has, in effect, demanded that free speech in France should only be allowed for Muslims. Everyone else must keep quiet on certain topics.

He demands that Turkish law is applied in France, instead of French law. Naturally, the French—Christian, Muslim, Jewish or atheist—are enraged at this. It is a studied insult, and a violent attack on everything that France is.

A few weeks ago, the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul was re-consecrated as a Muslim mosque. Now, imagine that a small group of French living in Turkey had occupied the mosque, killed the imam, and proceeded to wipe their bottoms with pages from the Quran. And imagine that the French President Macron had demanded an apology from Turkey. That’s how bad this is.

Yes, the infamous cartoons are certainly insulting, in bad taste, sacrilegious, and an affront to decent discourse. (And ugly, actually.) And yet, not only the French, but all Europeans defend them—because allowing them to be published is what we are. If we are to have a free society, we must allow also the gross, insulting, and enraging. Much worse insults to Christianity are published daily.

Some people get enraged, but it is still allowed to happen, because our laws do not care about our precious feelings, or anyone else’s. I have myself, long ago, pulled on a uniform and declared my willingness to die for your right to say things I find distasteful. I was willing to die for your right to insult me. You cannot understand Europe unless you understand this.

If your hatred of a free society is so intense that you cannot tolerate living in it, if your faith is so weak and fragile that you cannot tolerate to have it questioned, then leave, because you are free to leave—or stay and complain, because you are free to complain as much as you like, as long as all you use are words.

You can even start a political party to stop free speech. Just don’t expect to get many votes.

Their 'right to offend' do not include Jews and holocaust. I suspect it also does not include their national symbols and persona with which they are deeply attached emotionally. Do France allow insult of Free France resistance heroes? Do France's ''right to offend'' include praising Nazi occupation of France? I am not sure about these. Someone should clarify with proper evidence.

French do not mind insulting other's religious believe or their own as they have undergone centuries of liberal education and secularization process. Expecting the same from immigrants who hail from deeply religious society is absurd. A certain degree of lack of understanding and not seeing things from the Muslim immigrant's point of view is apparent among the ''enlightened'' French. They expect, as soon as any immigrant touch the French soil, they should abandon all of their identity and automatically acquire 'French values'. French do not understand, most Muslims love their prophet and religion more than anything else in the world. If you insult and use obscene language against the Father/mother of 1000 French men, chances are there that 1 or 2 of them may lost their cool and attack you physically. Most Muslims love their prophet more than their parents. To understand Muslim psyche you have to keep this thing in mind.

Secularization is a long term process. France itself acquired it through hundreds of years of trial and error. After the French revolution in 1789, secular republic were overthrown more than once by the religious traditionalist/monarchists. This is why current France is Fifth republic.

 

[Shorisrip]

Their 'right to offend' do not include Jews and holocaust. I suspect it also does not include their national symbols and persona with which they are deeply attached emotionally. Do France allow insult of Free French resistance heroes? Do France's ''right to offend'' include praising Nazi occupation of France? I am not sure about these. Someone should clarify with proper evidence.

French do not mind insulting other's religious believe or their own as they have undergone centuries of liberal education and secularization process. Expecting the same from immigrants who hail from deeply religious society is absurd. A certain degree of lack of understanding and not seeing things from the Muslim immigrant's point of view is apparent among the ''enlightened'' French. They expect, as soon as any immigrant touch the French soil, they should abandon all of their identity and automatically acquire 'French values'. French do not understand, most Muslims love their prophet and religion more than anything else in the world. If you insult and use obscene language against the Father/mother of 1000 French man, chances are there that 1 or 2 of them may lost their cool and attack you physically. Most Muslims love their prophet more than their parents. To understand Muslim psyche you have to keep this thing in mind.

Secularization is a long term process. France itself acquired it through hundreds of years of trial and error. After the French revolution in 1789, secular republic were overthrown more than once by the religious traditionalist/monarchists. This is why current France is Fifth republic.

Agreed, however personally Muslims or whoever need to stay calm when an irrelevant magazine makes belittling posts about anything. It is not productive or healthy to get offended at everything in the world. If not possible, they should at least engage in constructive criticism of the French versions of freedom of speech and secularism (laicite) as has been done by people of Anglo-Canada in regards to Quebec's policies (which has a similar socio-economic and political culture as France). Mindless protests do not change people's minds, and arguments are never won in such a manner. As Bluesky indicated in a post a couple days ago, it is also islamically recommended to just stay away from these insulting sources, and especially not engage in violence. Having said that, criticism of Macron's tactics to use the villainisation of Muslims to garner support among right-wing voters just shows his desperation in face of political weakness. Criticism of Macron himself is justified, and repercussions in France, and external relations/impressions of France are being felt which is also deserved. Overall, the post 9/11 environment and radicalisation of Muslims have given normal people of Muslim background a bad name throughout the world. It is not a positive outcome, and these recent acts of violence do not help improving that image, nor do unnecessary protests which are more words than action. People living in their home countries may not know, but there is growing animosity of Muslims and Islam in the West and the non-Muslim world everyday. Muslim-majority countries around the world need to develop human capital so that their current negative reputation is one day shed.

 

[Homo Sapiens]

Agreed, however personally Muslims or whoever need to stay calm when an irrelevant magazine makes belittling posts about anything. It is not productive or healthy to get offended at everything in the world. If not possible, they should at least engage in constructive criticism of the French versions of freedom of speech and secularism (laicite) as has been done by people of Anglo-Canada in regards to Quebec's policies (which has a similar socio-economic and political culture as France). Mindless protests do not change people's minds, and arguments are never won in such a manner. As Bluesky indicated in a post a couple days ago, it is also islamically recommended to just stay away from these insulting sources, and especially not engage in violence. Having said that, criticism of Macron's tactics to use the villainisation of Muslims to garner support among right-wing voters just shows his desperation in face of political weakness. Criticism of Macron himself is justified, and repercussions in France, and external relations/impressions of France are being felt which is also deserved. Overall, the post 9/11 environment and radicalisation of Muslims have given normal people of Muslim background a bad name throughout the world. It is not a positive outcome, and these recent acts of violence do not help improving that image, nor do unnecessary protests which are more words than action. People living in their home countries may not know, but there is growing animosity of Muslims and Islam in the West and the non-Muslim world everyday. Muslim-majority countries around the world need to develop human capital so that their current negative reputation is one day shed.

Of course Muslims need to be reflective and see things from the opposite angle. But what I find absurd is that they expect Muslim immigrants(less educated, poorer, and comes from traditional societies in opposed to highly secular and claimant of 'enlightened' French) to be rational when they themselves are not. They are just as jealous as hardline Muslims when it comes to protect their ''values''. Isn't it arrogance? Like saying your Islamic values are negotiable but not ours. You Muslims should react in a same way like us when you face insulting caricature of your religion. From Muslim point of views why this should be acceptable? Should not the path of tolerance and acceptance be a two way street? If they can not accept Muslim customs, sensitivities and values, why they accept Muslims immigrants in a first place? Or do not prohibit conversion to Islam within France?

 

[Bilal9]

Their 'right to offend' do not include Jews and holocaust. I suspect it also does not include their national symbols and persona with which they are deeply attached emotionally. Do France allow insult of Free France resistance heroes? Do France's ''right to offend'' include praising Nazi occupation of France? I am not sure about these. Someone should clarify with proper evidence.

French do not mind insulting other's religious believe or their own as they have undergone centuries of liberal education and secularization process. Expecting the same from immigrants who hail from deeply religious society is absurd. A certain degree of lack of understanding and not seeing things from the Muslim immigrant's point of view is apparent among the ''enlightened'' French. They expect, as soon as any immigrant touch the French soil, they should abandon all of their identity and automatically acquire 'French values'. French do not understand, most Muslims love their prophet and religion more than anything else in the world. If you insult and use obscene language against the Father/mother of 1000 French men, chances are there that 1 or 2 of them may lost their cool and attack you physically. Most Muslims love their prophet more than their parents. To understand Muslim psyche you have to keep this thing in mind.

Secularization is a long term process. France itself acquired it through hundreds of years of trial and error. After the French revolution in 1789, secular republic were overthrown more than once by the religious traditionalist/monarchists. This is why current France is Fifth republic.

Wise words Sir. Respect...

They are just as jealous as hardline Muslims when it comes to protect their ''values''. Isn't it arrogance? Like saying your Islamic values are negotiable but not ours.

There is a certain amount of cultural snobbery I expect from some French people, not all. Very feminine and sort of classist.

The way they capitulated to the Nazis is amazing, in spite of having better technology. The US bailed them out in WWII with arms, food and all material help (even in WWI with volunteers), and they still looked down on the American tourists until recently.

If they look down on the foremost power in the world at the time, then North Africans and Arabs of all types are way farther down the totem pole...

Shouldn't be a comparison I know, but it partly explains the mentality.