Decision time for Indian attack helicopter tender

[Dash]

So mrca will soon go to US or Euro, attack helo deal'll also go to US Apache is still leading the world. So guess bad luck will hit russians again that's sad.

In all possible scenario, Mi28 will win in India. The primary reason being offensive weapons are still a no buy kind of thing when it comes to US. They can pressurize, but it will take a long time for us to buy from them.

The attack copter deal is for 26 only and this, given with US track record will be valunerable to repairs and maintanance, and you will be lefft with very few helos in case of a war.

I am not saying US will not help us maintain the helos, but Indian mentality is still in a state of mistrust with them.

 

[GORKHALI]

189 LCH + 22 apache 64D +25 upgraded Mi 25 and Mi 35

 

[sancho]

In all possible scenario, Mi28 will win in India. The primary reason being offensive weapons are still a no buy kind of thing when it comes to US. They can pressurize, but it will take a long time for us to buy from them.

The attack copter deal is for 26 only and this, given with US track record will be valunerable to repairs and maintanance, and you will be lefft with very few helos in case of a war.

I am not saying US will not help us maintain the helos, but Indian mentality is still in a state of mistrust with them.

Actually that is the main reason against the Russian helicopters, because of the quality issues and unsure supply of spares. I agree that in sanctions the US helicopters will have problems as well, but that's where such a small order won't harm the capabilities of our forces, when the main attack helicopter will be the LCH anyway.
From a technical point of view, the Mi 28 might be easier and faster to induct, because of the experience with the Mi 35s, that will be replaced. Also most of the weapons that we already have, could be used on it as well, which will give the Russians a cost advantage, besides the unit cost of the helicopters.
The latest avionics and weapons of the Apache instead, would clearly increase the capabilties of our forces way more, (imo) especially in terms of recon and comand roles, where the Apache could be linked with UAVs, or AWACS. The Russians as usuall will offer high fire power at low costs, but I think the battlefields of the future, where these combat helicopters will be used mainly, will not be just the anti tank roles of the past, but net centric attacks in combination with various aircrafts and ground forces, which gives big advantages to the Apache.

Not to forget that this is an order of IAF, not IA, so they might have more tactical roles to play in future, while IA LCHs will be used for anti tank and support of ground troops.

 

[Kinetic]

Supply of after sale spare parts is a big issue regarding Russian weapons while for US its sanction. Thats why India buying most of the weapons including enough spares.

 

[Dash]

Actually that is the main reason against the Russian helicopters, because of the quality issues and unsure supply of spares. I agree that in sanctions the US helicopters will have problems as well, but that's where such a small order won't harm the capabilities of our forces, when the main attack helicopter will be the LCH anyway.
From a technical point of view, the Mi 28 might be easier and faster to induct, because of the experience with the Mi 35s, that will be replaced. Also most of the weapons that we already have, could be used on it as well, which will give the Russians a cost advantage, besides the unit cost of the helicopters.
The latest avionics and weapons of the Apache instead, would clearly increase the capabilties of our forces way more, (imo) especially in terms of recon and comand roles, where the Apache could be linked with UAVs, or AWACS. The Russians as usuall will offer high fire power at low costs, but I think the battlefields of the future, where these combat helicopters will be used mainly, will not be just the anti tank roles of the past, but net centric attacks in combination with various aircrafts and ground forces, which gives big advantages to the Apache.

Not to forget that this is an order of IAF, not IA, so they might have more tactical roles to play in future, while IA LCHs will be used for anti tank and support of ground troops.

I agree, but we also have to agree that the entire sea king fleet was grounded because of spare issues, and Apache fleet is also small. Now In today's scenario that kind of sanctions are not there on us, however that leaves a lasting impression.

I simply dont get the logic as to why IAF will be operating these, coz Army has already operated Mis and it will be easier for them to operate the helos and they will need the most. From a maintainance commonality its better be with Army. However you are refering to a tactical situation for IAF, what could be more tactical for a helo than army using it. But debating on it is useless as IAF WILL BE using it.

Looks like IAF will be using it for Recee purposes and Mi 28 also has A2A abilities so it will suit them better to shoot down UAVs or other helos. But things are not clear here.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I agree, but we also have to agree that the entire sea king fleet was grounded because of spare issues, and Apache fleet is also small. Now In today's scenario that kind of sanctions are not there on us, however that leaves a lasting impression.

I simply dont get the logic as to why IAF will be operating these, coz Army has already operated Mis and it will be easier for them to operate the helos and they will need the most. From a maintainance commonality its better be with Army. However you are refering to a tactical situation for IAF, what could be more tactical for a helo than army using it. But debating on it is useless as IAF WILL BE using it.

Looks like IAF will be using it for Recee purposes and Mi 28 also has A2A abilities so it will suit them better to shoot down UAVs or other helos. But things are not clear here.

The fact of the matter is that the entire "Mi fleet" is operated by the by the IAF. The IA's Army Aviation Corps. has the Cheetahs, Chetaks and Dhruvs in its inventory. IMO, not a good arrangement but that is the way it is. MoD would do well to amend that arrangement in future.
That said, the Apaches/ Mi-28s seem likely to head to the IAF hangars, while the LCH will reach the IA.

Unfortunately the IAF has (over the years) very jealously guarded its turf. Even the IN has experienced that many times in the past, but luckily for them only the IN could operate Aircraft Carriers, so they could set up their own air-wing. But they struggled to get the ASW/MR element of that force from the IAF. Now it is "fait accompli" for them.

But the IA has not reached that exalted position yet!

 

[Whiplash]

189 LCH + 22 apache 64D +25 upgraded Mi 25 and Mi 35

... Armed dhruv.

 

[gubbi]

That said, the Apaches/ Mi-28s seem likely to head to the IAF hangars, while the LCH will reach the IA.

Unfortunately the IAF has (over the years) very jealously guarded its turf.

But the IA has not reached that exalted position yet!

Why doesnt IAF leave CAS to Army air wing? There has to be a change in this fundamental thinking. Kargil saw the tussle between IA and IAF which delayed entry of IAF into the conflict. It was a criminal negligence on IA and IAF's part while jawans were slaughtered by terrorists! With IA's own CAS, it would become easier to call in air support whenever IA wishes.

At least, why not emulate RAF (the Britishers' traditions which IA so loves), let IAF control all fixed wing aircraft and some rotor wing aircraft, while letting IA have rotor-wing aircraft in its inventory? Better still create a force on the lines of US Marine Corps with its own air-wing!

 

[archangel]

It would help immensely in ground operations....think all battle wont be armor and fighter jets.....there will a huge element of insertion and precision operations....look at how effective these would be against home grown terrorists like Maoists...I am not saying to get the other helicopter classes....only that we should get some of these to accompany our vast inventory.......Somalia fighters are one of the best fighters there are....hard to believe huh.....very lethal..and extremely mobile....and the use of many effective small weapons from RPGs to booby traps

Ya, I do agree with you buddy, to some extent, that they were/are useful but not the way in which India fights.... We never do serious urban warfare in practice except for say, Jammu & Kashmir and this heli, the littlebird, is more useful in an urban situation than a forest type... The problem is, in fighting the Maoists, that this helicopter leaves the soldier exposed to fire from the forest below and how are you going to see through the trees to defend????

So, nice, they may seem, but not practical, especially in India's approach towards war....

 

[archangel]

I think instead of this we should go for armed version of black hawk, it can fulfill the job of both transport and attack...Israel recently tested it and even Sikorsky has claimed that they can build black hawk to work at high altitudes if India wants and if India decides to purchase around 60 (IN order) they will set up manufacturing facility in India.

I think instead of this we should go for armed version of black hawk, it can fulfill the job of both transport and attack...Israel recently tested it and even Sikorsky has claimed that they can build black hawk to work at high altitudes if India wants and if India decides to purchase around 60 (IN order) they will set up manufacturing facility in India.

Buddy, just making a point here....... An Mi-17 can carry 30 fully-equipped soldiers, along with provisions for carrying an SUV inside, easily upgradable, can carry SUVs or light howitzers below with ropes along with inside loads, is a reliable platform for both multi-role and attack/support capabilities and yet comes at a cost 1/3rd of that of the basic Blackhawk which can only carry 8-9 fully-equipped soldiers or underslung weight!!!!!!!!

 

[archangel]

I think 22 AH-64D block III or Mi-28NE are enough while we are getting large number of LCH. This combination is much better than anything our adversaries can field. Perfect combination of stealth, sensors and weapons.

Yeah, u r right...... afterall, only except the Helina, I think almost all the work is complete on LCH..... I expect them to induct it ASAP enough and go for a mark-2 version with atleast retractable wheels/landing gear... cozz I mean, what the heck, u make a whole helicopter with stealth in mind and miss out on adding retractable landing gear..... Believe it or not, If they before finally releasing the heli manage to get the retractable landing gear, Helina (with the longer range) and a smaller/narrower tail-section, just to decrease the huge side surface area which could easily be its weakest point bcozz of being way too shootable/trackable/targetable (I think I still haven't got the right words... anyways), this could not only make it a success in the International Market but also could mark it as the stealthiest heli in service!!!!!!!!! (Anyone else knows of any other heli designed with stealth in mind other than Comanche and LCH and Kawasaki OH-1???)

 

[archangel]

IMO, Mil Mi-28 is the way.... Its not technologically "baba-adam" and with us Indians always ready with the After-Markets, we can soon enough spice 'em up to be the one of the best (not impossible, so who knows....) helis in the world..... Secondly, 22 helicopters means MoD is only trying to fill a gap temporarily until the tailor-made LCHs arrive..... Since, its Russian, there will be more trust, technology sharing and might even result in more JVs instead of Sanction issues and other 1000 conditions like CISMOA that have always accompanied US products..... Also, price is a factor and Russian Helicopter is tailor-made for fighting in this part of the World.... Also, firepower, infact a lot of it comes with the Havoc and thus, it is another +ve point to the "Russian Flying Tank".....!!!!!!!

 

[tallboy123]

So guys which one is the best????

 

[Luftwaffe]

You will see, Apaches on their way..

 

[sancho]

I agree, but we also have to agree that the entire sea king fleet was grounded because of spare issues, and Apache fleet is also small. Now In today's scenario that kind of sanctions are not there on us, however that leaves a lasting impression.

Of course, but you have to see the difference of the situations back then and now. IN in that time had no comparable naval helicopter that could do the same, other than a dozen Russian helicopters. IAF on the other side will get nearly 200 LCH + additional weaponized Dhruvs and Mi 171s, which makes them way less dependent on this new combat helicopters, than IN was in that time.
I totally agree with you, that we have to keep these issues in mind when negotiating with the US, moreover we have to be realistic and understand that Pakistan is stil their main ally in this area. That's one reason I'm against US fighters winning MMRCA, or complete dependence of the transport fleet on US C17s. Small orders of arms and techs, in specific fields, like P8I, C130J for special forces, or the Apache on the other hand are different.
It's simply a mistake if we just switch from overdependence on Russia, to overdependence on the US!

I simply dont get the logic as to why IAF will be operating these, coz Army has already operated Mis and it will be easier for them to operate the helos and they will need the most.

As Capt.Popeye explained, the Mi 35s were used by IAF so far, IA only now gets weaponised helicopters and not only utility helicopters.
On the one hand it is better to have the aircrafts at one force, because it makes it easier in terms of logistics and maintenance. But I am also for specific aircrafts, for specific roles in different forces. That IA now gets their own combat helicopters to support their ground forces makes a lot of sense, but IAF needs combat helicopters as well, to escort other transport helicopters for example, to defend basis, or as I said for other tactical operations, so nothing wrong by replacing older IAF helicopters with newer here.
I am also for IN getting the maritime attack fighter squads, because their pilots will train these roles anyway, be it for MPAs, or carrier fighters, which would ease training and logistic as well (Harpoon missiles for Jaguar IM and P8I).

But we can also see the downside of giving aircrafts to different forces in form of the different amphibious aircraft competitions that IN, ICG and IAF now issued. Most of them are for the same roles, or even for the same areas and still we have 3 different competitions, which is a waste of time and money.