Danes Fear Islam ‘Obstacle To Society’

[Devil Soul]

Danes Fear Islam
‘Obstacle To Society’
COPENHAGEN, Aug 17, (AFP): A majority of Danes fear Islam is an obstacle for social cohesion, despite one in two believing that immigration is positive for Danish society, according to a study published Tuesday.

In a survey by the Ramboell institute, some 54.9 percent believe that Islam hinders social harmony, while 39.9 percent disagree and 5.2 percent did not comment. Yet 49.7 percent of respondents believe that immigration since the 1960s — and the integration of immigrants, refugees and their offspring — have been generally positive for Danish society. Some 42.4 percent believe immigrants have been negative for society and 5.9 percent abstained from comment.

“People find it difficult to discern between culture and religion and see honour crimes, forced marriages as a part of Islam,” Imran Shah, spokesman for the Danish Islamic community told the conservative Jyllands-Posten newspaper, which published the results of the survey.

He said this attitude means Islam is therefore seen as a problem for Denmark’s liberal society.

 

[Old School]

I thought that the Vikings were fearless !

 

[GentlemanObserver]

I thought that the Vikings were fearless !

Quoted for the truth!

 

[muse]

I have not see the survey or how it was constructed but just reading "social cohesion" and thinking whether or not a question was construrcted around it, seems to me, to be problematic - I mean how objective a question is "Do you you think Islam foster or not, Social Cohesion? -- Social cohesion in an open society, seems to me, something of a contradiction, am I wrong?

 

[Old School]

I have not see the survey or how it was constructed but just reading "social cohesion" and thinking whether or not a question was construrcted around it, seems to me, to be problematic - I mean how objective a question is "Do you you think Islam foster or not, Social Cohesion? -- Social cohesion in an open society, seems to me, something of a contradiction, am I wrong?

You are right . The question was designed to cook up desired result in the survey. I have been to Copenhagen and I even get irritated by the Somali youths hooking up in the suburbs. Most Danes consider Islam= Somalians . Most these Somalians are not even real Somalis. They are mostly from Djibouti, Kenya , Yemen and Eritrea while granted asylum with easily available fake Somali papers.

 

[muse]

OK, but what about this:

People find it difficult to discern between culture and religion and see honour crimes, forced marriages as a part of Islam,” Imran Shah, spokesman for the Danish Islamic community told the conservative Jyllands-Posten newspaper, which published the results of the survey.

He said this attitude means Islam is therefore seen as a problem for Denmark’s liberal society

Mr. Shah seems to be saying that there is a difference between Islam and the Muslims Islam has produced -- Is he right? Is there really a differnce between Communism and the Cummunists it produces??

I mean, look it, can OUGHT, responsibility for such vices as honor killings and forced marriages and generally misogynist attitudes, really be evaded? How?

And WHy ought they be evaded? I think ever greater numbers of Muslims are now asking these questions/ But it's not enough to ask these questions, it's a first step but it cannot be allowed to become a cop out, "at least we asking questions"

 

[Old School]

From military understanding , I would directly order hitting a fortress if I see my troops are under attack from people who hide behind that fortress. I will not waste time to fragment the population behind the fortress.
Now, it is still a high risk subject to stir debate involving Islam to any extend. This may change in the future but for now I see denial is the only available armour .

 

[SMC]

It's time for muslims to get out of Scandinavia as the place is visibly becoming quite Islamophobic and it's only getting worse Yes, I know, easier said than done. But those who are a position to move out should do so ASAP.

 

[Comet]

OK, but what about this:




Mr. Shah seems to be saying that there is a difference between Islam and the Muslims Islam has produced -- Is he right? Is there really a differnce between Communism and the Cummunists it produces??

I mean, look it, can OUGHT, responsibility for such vices as honor killings and forced marriages and generally misogynist attitudes, really be evaded? How?

And WHy ought they be evaded? I think ever greater numbers of Muslims are now asking these questions/ But it's not enough to ask these questions, it's a first step but it cannot be allowed to become a cop out, "at least we asking questions"

I believe he ought to say that "Actions of Muslims" is considered to be Islam whereas they may not be inline with the Islamic Teachings.

 

[muse]

it is still a high risk subject to stir debate involving Islam to any extend

The "high reward" aspect should also be kept in mind. It's a very sad state when fear keeps critical inquiry silenced.

Most Muslim immigrants in Scandinavia, are from lower middle class and village backgrounds - they were socially conservative to begin with and in such a melieu and as a "despised minority" it's not suprising that they more often than not, are attracted to the most horrendous of social attitudes and practices. In many ways, they replicate the experience of their rural and lower class socially conservative (read backward looking) backgrounds.

In their backgrounds, women are not educated, they certainly not holding dowm responsible positions in governance, industry and commerce. Men and women, younger boys and girls certainly do not enjoy each others company, companionship and a hyper sensitivity towards sex arising from this seperation, is norm.

Rural communities and small communities in general, and especially those who function as a "despised minority" are not generally characterized by the diversity of ideas that hold that community together.

Yet the question raised is whether or not Islam is responsible for the Muslims it creates - now there is no monolith Islam, but the islam one percieves or experiences has to do with the level of education and the social strata one experiences it in, that is to say there is amultiplicity of Islam -- Wait a minute, isn't that a cop out?

No, it's not, it's reality. However; having said that, does that mean that there is no Islam responsible for the attitudes and behaviour that Mr. Shah has pointed to ? There most certainly is, it is a backward Islam, that is no longer about faith in God, but focused on carrying on tribal social mores in a hetrogenous modern society - somethngs' got to give.

While most othert Muslims are outraged by honor killings and forced marriages, why is it that Islam and Muslims are not define dby that outrage and instead by that ultra minority that find adherence to tribal mores as "tradition" ??? Is that a unfair question to pose?


Also, it seems to me, that we have a "Upstairs, Downstairs" thing going on - just like the "despised minority" finds the Saudi inspired tribal Islam compeling, so do many Europeans find comfort in the manner in which they see US reacting to the same kinds of probems they too, have their own "Upstairs/downstairs" thing -- when we begin to see things change in the US, you will begin to see very different presentations made of Muslim immgrants, not just in Scandinavia but across Europe, with the possible exception of France perhaps.

Now, the exact same conversational tone and exact same substance could have been had in the lead piece above -- so wasn't it there??

 

[Old School]

I give you an example of the educational backgrounds of most the Muslims we meet today. The mother of Gen. Musharraf got a Masters degree in the British time and hence we have a highly liberal person as him. Now the question is how many of us have such educated mother ? Not so many for sure.
A mother is the most important person in a family to educate the children and make them civilized. You know the situation in most South Asian and Middle Eastern countries.

 

[Spring Onion]

I give you an example of the educational backgrounds of most the Muslims we meet today. The mother of Gen. Musharraf got a Masters degree in the British time and hence we have a highly liberal person as him. Now the question is how many of us have such educated mother ? Not so many for sure.
A mother is the most important person in a family to educate the children and make them civilized. You know the situation in most South Asian and Middle Eastern countries.

mmmmm Womanizer, drinker liberal if that is then well

NO grooming by an educated mother is needed. Many other of his stature in our politics posses these trades who's mothers are not educated in British time

 

[muse]

Education is key - not just in Denmark.

Educated men and WOMEN -- After all, see the example of JANA, she is not uneducated.

 

[Developereo]

It's time for muslims to get out of Scandinavia as the place is visibly becoming quite Islamophobic and it's only getting worse Yes, I know, easier said than done. But those who are a position to move out should do so ASAP.

A better approach would be for Islamic community centers and leaders to guide the community towards academic excellence and greater social interaction.

Scandinavians have traditionally been some of the most liberal and welcoming groups in Europe. If they see prominent contributions by muslims in their society -- be it sports, academics, media or politics -- they will reject the hate mongers. It is a slow process, but there are no shortcuts.

The first step would be to make sure community is led and represented by leaders who are native born and raised (i.e. articulate, media-savvy and in sync with the particular needs of muslim life in the West), rather than importing clueless curmudgeons from the old country.

 

[gambit]

A better approach would be for Islamic community centers and leaders to guide the community towards academic excellence and greater social interaction.

Scandinavians have traditionally been some of the most liberal and welcoming groups in Europe. If they see prominent contributions by muslims in their society -- be it sports, academics, media or politics -- they will reject the hate mongers. It is a slow process, but there are no shortcuts.

Yes there is one -- war. Military conquest or insurrection will work.

The first step would be to make sure community is led and represented by leaders who are native born and raised (i.e. articulate, media-savvy and in sync with the particular needs of muslim life in the West), rather than importing clueless curmudgeons from the old country.

That is the other shortcut that could lead to the other one.