Curious Case of Brahmos M (mini)

[bharatiy]

the payload of LCA Mk1 is 4 tonnes

expected payload of LCA Mk2 is 5.5. to 6 tonnes

minimum 30% load on inner wing pylon is standard on all aircrafts
30% of 6 tonnes is 2 tonnes
30% of 5.5 tonnes is 1.65 tonnes

Brahmos M is supposed to be 1.5 tonnes +150 kg for attachments etc

2 brahmos M on 2 inner pylons = 3 tonnes which still leaves 2.5-3 tonnes for other weapons + fuel tanks

also consider the navy is gunjho about both Naval LCA and Brahmos M

trust them to have this in thier sights

Its not just divide and multiply. There are also other factors like airframe strength , speed, fuel capacity/range and may be other. I doubt LCA is equipped with M brahmos.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I confused Brahmos A with Brahmos Mini.

BrahmosA's weight was reduced to 2.55 tons if I am not wrong. Anyways, I guess in that case Sukhoi's & Rafale will surely carry more than one brahmos. Maybe LCA too. Lets wait and see what happens.

The Brahmos-M is lighter and smaller (in terms of dimensions) as compared to the Brahmos land-launched version and Brahmos-A.

Ummmm. M still not convinced bro. Even Sukhoi will only be able to carry a single brahmos mini each. Lets see what @sancho & @Abingdonboy has to say about it.

The Super Sukhois will be able to carry a single Brahmos-A in the centreline and will be the ONLY a/c in the Indian inventory able to carry/fire the Brahmos-A.

However the Brahmos-M will be carried by the MKI, Rafale, MiG-29K/UPG, FGFA and LCA (perhaps, I'm not convinced the the wing stations are up to the job @sancho any ideas?). All of the above will be able to carry 2/3 Brahmos-Ms and this will be pretty darn devastating for any adversary.

One shouldn't get ahead of oneself but the MiG-29K flying off Indian ACCs with 2 Brahmos-M (and the MKI flying from land bases with 3 Brahmos-M) is going to change the game in the IOR completely.

 

[Trawllu]

Its not just divide and multiply. There are also other factors like airframe strength , speed, fuel capacity/range and may be other. I doubt LCA is equipped with M brahmos.

agreed there are factors like

airframe strength

this is where rule of thumbs like 30% of total load can be carried on inner pylons come in because when airframes are designed these are kept in mind may vary from a/c to a.c but then so it is called thumb rule
if inner pylons and centreline cant carry such loads how can 5.5 - 6 tonne can be carried by the aircraft there has to be some distribution of load

also another major factor will be flight profile in assymetric load conditions i.e. if LCA Mk2 carries 2 brahmos M then when 1 is fired it will increase the load by 1.5 tons min on one side
but that is a testing and FCS/L modification issue not a big deal

why I am optimistic about it is because Navy is driving the program

Navy has only 2 platforms currently Mig 29K and Naval LCA
and Navy is betting big on both Brahmos M and NLCA
Navy will ensure that it has a combination of both NLCA with 2 Brahmos M + 2/4 BVR + 2/4 WVR from shore based bases + IACs

 

[jha]

Still some years from fruition. Dont understand the need for Brahmos-A if Brahmos-M is being planned. Are we too much in love with Brahmos..?

 

[Agent_47]

Still some years from fruition. Dont understand the need for Brahmos-A if Brahmos-M is being planned. Are we too much in love with Brahmos..?

Bigger warhead,nuclear strike.
Mini will make regular brahmos irrelevant and will have great taste for exports.

 

[sancho]

Ummmm. M still not convinced bro. Even Sukhoi will only be able to carry a single brahmos mini each. Lets see what @sancho & @Abingdonboy has to say about it.

LCA will carry not a single Brahmos, no matter in which version. The centerline can't carry such long loads, the wingstations doesn't have the weight limit, nor does it make any sense to use such heavy loads with a single centerline fuel tank on a light class fighter. We shouldn't make LCA better or more important than it is, there is no need for it to carry heavy loads when you have so many bigger fighters in the fleet. Even in the navy, it will be the Mig 29K that is aimed to carry larger missile, but if that's possible from a STOBAR carrier needs to be seen though.

Still some years from fruition. Dont understand the need for Brahmos-A if Brahmos-M is being planned. Are we too much in love with Brahmos..?

Because IAF doesn't have this capability at all so far. The longest range weapon is the Kh 59, but other than that we hardly have credible stand off range weapons in the pack so far. It's disappointing if we didn't add Scalp for the upgraded M2Ks, we badly need CM strike capabilities.

 

[MilSpec]

So MKIs are getting the baby bramhos.... any other options????

MKI will get full size bramos II, when brahmos M is ready Mig 29 MKI and Rafales, all will get them

 

[The_Sidewinder]

LCA will carry not a single Brahmos, no matter in which version. The centerline can't carry such long loads, the wingstations doesn't have the weight limit, nor does it make any sense to use such heavy loads with a single centerline fuel tank on a light class fighter. We shouldn't make LCA better or more important than it is, there is no need for it to carry heavy loads when you have so many bigger fighters in the fleet. Even in the navy, it will be the Mig 29K that is aimed to carry larger missile, but if that's possible from a STOBAR carrier needs to be seen though.



Because IAF doesn't have this capability at all so far. The longest range weapon is the Kh 59, but other than that we hardly have credible stand off range weapons in the pack so far. It's disappointing if we didn't add Scalp for the upgraded M2Ks, we badly need CM strike capabilities.

Thanks for the clearification. I had the same doubts as well. I am pretty sure sukhoi's & rafale's will get couple of mini brahmos each. But dont you think, HAL should make LCA-N & Lca mkii version capable enough to carry atleast a single brahmos mini each, thats for the worst case scenario. I know in plain sight there is no need as such, still who knows?

 

[sancho]

But dont you think, HAL should make LCA-N & Lca mkii version capable enough to carry atleast a single brahmos mini each

First of all it's DRDO that develops the LCA not HAL. Secondly, it's not about if LCA should carry such a missile, but if it's possible to carry and operate it. Even the Brahmos M is simply too boig for LCA and operating N-LCA from a STOBAR carrier will add more than enough operational limitations, even with lighter loads. N-LCA might carry only a single anti ship missile (like Kh35, or Harpoon) with 2 fuel tanks to useful ranges, or 2 missiles with just a single fuel tank to short ranges.
I even doubt so far that the Mig 29K will be able to take off and land with 2 x Brahmos M from a carrier, so lets not dream about LCA with even less thrust and capability.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Indians have a Fascination for putting Brahmos on EVEYTHING

How about Tu 22 M 3 full of Brahmos(s)

 

[The_Sidewinder]

First of all it's DRDO that develops the LCA not HAL. Secondly, it's not about if LCA should carry such a missile, but if it's possible to carry and operate it. Even the Brahmos M is simply too boig for LCA and operating N-LCA from a STOBAR carrier will add more than enough operational limitations, even with lighter loads. N-LCA might carry only a single anti ship missile (like Kh35, or Harpoon) with 2 fuel tanks to useful ranges, or 2 missiles with just a single fuel tank to short ranges.
I even doubt so far that the Mig 29K will be able to take off and land with 2 x Brahmos M from a carrier, so lets not dream about LCA with even less thrust and capability.

Ooopppsss. Should have written DRDO. :p

About the second part, I was also thinking at the same line. But @Trawllu insisted on NLCA being made capable of carrying 2 Brahmos M. So was asking for your advice.

Thanks for clearing my doubts.

Indians have a Fascination for putting Brahmos on EVEYTHING

How about Tu 22 M 3 full of Brahmos(s)

Question is, why not????

 

[sancho]

About the second part, I was also thinking at the same line. But @Trawllu insisted on NLCA being made capable of carrying 2 Brahmos M. So was asking for your advice.

As I said, more interesting than what happens with N-LCA is, how capable the Mig 29K will be and if it will be able to take off and land with such loads.
N-LCA itself is mainly a paper plane at the moment, since it's dependent on the MK2 changes that are not even developed yet. So dreaming about Brahmos for it, before we even know how the final specs of the Air Force based MK2 will be, is simply too overoptimistic. One only needs to see the difference between the specs Saab gave about Gripen earlier and what now comes up. If things will go a similar way with LCA MK2, I feel many people will be disappointed by the weight and performance, let alone of the naval version.

 

[Trawllu]

Ooopppsss. Should have written DRDO. :p

About the second part, I was also thinking at the same line. But @Trawllu insisted on NLCA being made capable of carrying 2 Brahmos M. So was asking for your advice.

Thanks for clearing my doubts.



Question is, why not????

why not on LCA Mk2 / NLCA ?

also if they are able to takeoff and land with 5.5-6tonnes then why not

why only carrier based ?

why not look at the map of IOR

with navy progressively taking over responsibility for coastal defence in southern india, Andaman & Lakshwadweep ?

the southern india, Andaman & Lakshwadweep are large stationary aircraft carriers - NO?

+ consider Naval bases with airstirps all along the coast

starts with jamnagar, porbunder, junagadh in gujarat + Baroda

Mumbai
Goa (INS HANSA)
Karwar
Sulur
Lakshwadweep
Andamans
Vizag,
+ 1 eastern base coming up

think

Range (combat radius) of LCA Mk2 / NCLA - 600 km + 300 km range of Brahmos Mini lets condier 750 Km total range

most of the immideate IOR falls under this range of 750Km with low cost light fighter

 

[Koovie]

even LCA Mk2 / Naval LCA may carry upto 2 Brahmos Mini

No. Thats very unlikely.... the former one is still a paperplane!

 

[sancho]

Indians have a Fascination for putting Brahmos on EVEYTHING

True, that's when pride takes over and logical thinking will be put behind. Brahmos M will be a highly capable and important missile, but it' not a choice for every application nor for any mission. In land attack we won't use it against every standard target, but only against high value targets. Just as we won't use it against any naval vessel, but only against large or well protected once. It's not like Brahmos M will be the standard anti ship missile for any Indian fighter in future, but most likely Kh 35. That's why it's actually more important for us, to develop a smaller Nirbhay (Nirbhay Mini if you want) as a lighter and cost-effective anti ship / land attack missile, comparable to SLAM-ER. That can be added to lighter fighters or MPAs, as a standard anti ship missile for the future, complementing Brahmos M.