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Cryogenic rocket engine : India

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@S-DUCT

AFAIK RL-10 is not closed loop engine although NASA uses it for the Centaur stage but the first stage is still powered by RD180 in Atlas V.

I m no expert so plz feel free to point out my mistakes....:)
 
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Very true thats why the Americans r still using RD180 for their Atlas V, i guess.

The European engine ur talking about is the French
Vinci (rocket engine) which is still undervelopment....:)
But RD-180 is semi-cryogenic engine using staged combustion cycle.In the previous post you asked about closed loop cryogenic engine.
 
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But RD180 is semi-cryogenic engine

Can u plz provide a link for that, just for clarification nothing else...:)

Btw what i was saying is that RD180 is a closed loop engine n here is what wiki says :

The RD-180 is fueled by a kerosene/liquid oxygen mixture and uses an
extremely efficient, high-
pressure staged combustion cycle.

But RD-180 is semi-cryogenic engine using staged combustion cycle.In the previous post you asked about closed loop cryogenic engine.

Sorry i didn't knew RD180 is a Semi cryogenic engine, plz pardon my ignorance, told ya i not an expert in these matter...:)
 
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@S-DUCT

AFAIK RL-10 is not closed loop engine although NASA uses it for the Centour stage but the first stage is still powered by RD180 in Atlas V.

I m no expert so plz feel free to point out my mistakes....:)
Both staged combustion and expander cycles are closed.
In staged combustion some amount of fuel is burned in preburner and generated hot gases then power turbines.then exhausted gases are pumped in the combustion so cycle is almost closed
In expander cycle fuel first cools combustion chamber, in doing so it acquires some heat and this heated gas then powers turbines with exhausted being vented to combustion chamber.so in this case also cycle is almost closed.

All Staged combustion cycled CE are thrust monsters excluding our CE-7.5.
Like RD-180 SCE our SC160 will also use staged combustion power cycle.
 
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@S-DUCT

Are u saying that SC160 uses similar closed loop engine tech as RD180???:what:

n one more little query, whats the thrust of RD180 in kn?:D
 
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@S-DUCT

Are u saying that SC160 uses similar closed loop engine tech as RD180???:what:

n one more little query, whats the thrust of RD180 in kn?:D
Yeah,SC160 will be using staged combustion power cycle just like in RD-180.
I'll repost this image again.
isro-semicryo.jpg

arre yaar wiki me sab diya hai
RD-180's vaccuam thrust is 4150KN and 3830KN at sea level.
 
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@S-DUCT

Why US RL10 has a thrust of only 66-100kn while India is developing CE20 with 200kn n CE60 with 600kn???:what:

Is it bcoz RL10 is much light weighted than CE20 n US sometimes uses more than one RL10.

But even then why we need a 600kn CE60 or even more powerful CE100 engine to power the Centaur stage...:undecided:
 
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@SpArK @S-DUCT @gslv mk3 @sancho @IND151

Can u guys provide some info on the Semi Cryogenic 2000kn SC160 engine being developed by ISRO to replace L110...:undecided:

Has its development completed or not? N will it be used in the April 2014 launch or not?

Plus any other info that u guys deem could be helpful for us noobs to understand this tech....:)




PS : Bluedot i think there is some bug on PDF which doesn't allow to directly quote u using Mention function...:lol:

20110802-India-Space-Shuttle-Reusable-Launch-Vehicle-16%25255B2%25255D.jpg











http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...ic-deep-structural-proble-11.html#post3683389
 
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@SpArK @S-DUCT @gslv mk3 @sancho @IND151

Can u guys provide some info on the Semi Cryogenic 2000kn SC160 engine being developed by ISRO to replace L110...:undecided:

Has its development completed or not? N will it be used in the April 2014 launch or not?

Plus any other info that u guys deem could be helpful for us noobs to understand this tech....:)




PS : Bluedot i think there is some bug on PDF which doesn't allow to directly quote u using Mention function...:lol:

The cryogenic engine cycles (see figure) normally used are gas generator cycle, staged combustion cycle and expander mode cycle.

cryotypes.png


Particular cycle is chosen based on consideration like engine thrust, duration, state of art available in the organization etc.

In the gas generator cycle (GG Cycle) the LOX and LH2 turbo pump are driven at two different speeds. It is done by using either a single turbine mounted on LH2 pump shaft and with gear box for reduced speed for LOX pump. Other option is two independent turbines for LOX and LH2 pumps mounted in either series mode or parallel mode. GG cycle is simple, and leads to independent development of subsystem like gas generator, turbopumps and combustion chamber. In GG Cycle the gas generator is run on
small quantity of LOX/ LH2 tapped from the pumps. In this cycle there is overall loss of Isp due to lower Isp delivered by the turbine gas.


In staged combustion cycle (SCC) the gas generator uses full LH2 flow rate and small quantity of LOX to generate the hot gas at temperature acceptable to turbines. The hot gas expands in the turbines to develop the power required for LOX/LH2 pumps and then it enters the combustion chamber where it burns with remaining LOX to develop necessary thrust. Since combustion take place in staged manner in this cycle, hence it is called staged combustion cycle. In this cycle since gas generator gas enters the main combustion chamber there is no loss of ISP. Only draw back is that sub system level development is complicated and
also pump/turbine power ratings are higher compared to GG Cycle for the same chamber pressure.

In expander cycle (EPC) the turbine drive gas, Gaseous hydrogen is tapped from the regeneratively cooled passage. The warm Gaseous hydrogen (GH2) after driving the turbine enters the combustion chamber where it burns with the oxygen to produce necessary thrust. This cycle is comparable to (SCC) as far as Isp loss is concerned. This cycle has yet another advantage
that the turbine runs on GH2 at subatmospheric temperature. However the cycle has limitations that the engine size/thrust is limited by the magnitude of the heat extraction by hydrogen from the regenerating cooling passages.
 
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@S-DUCT

Why US RL10 has a thrust of only 66-100kn while India is developing CE20 with 200kn n CE60 with 600kn???:what:

Is it bcoz RL10 is much light weighted than CE20 n US sometimes uses more than one RL10.

But even then why we need a 600kn CE60 or even more powerful CE100 engine to power the Centaur stage...:undecided:
IMO,CE-60 is primarily made for RLV-TSTO and duo of CE-100 may find its place in core stage of heavy launch vehicle.These things are not yet clear,we may have to wait for few more years.Nasa's SLS block1 will have RL-10 in its 2nd second but the SLS block 2 will 3 J-2x CE produing total of 3930KN thrust in 2nd stage.So it is also possible that we might use CE-100 and CE-20 or a new simple cryogenic engine similar to RL-10 to power 2nd of HLV depending upon mission and payload requirement.CE based on Expander cycle are easiest than gas generator and staged combustion engine.The later is most difficult to develope and has lots of parts.

Thrust in any Expander cycle based CE is limited because to you incrase thrust you will need to increase combustion chamber area in order to heat up more LH2.
 
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@Yogi:
From the pic posted by IND151,it is now clear that CE-60 will have staged combustion cycle.
20110802-India-Space-Shuttle-Reusable-Launch-Vehicle-16%25255B2%25255D.jpg
 
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The cryogenic engine cycles (see figure) normally used are gas generator cycle, staged combustion cycle and expander mode cycle.

cryotypes.png

Thanx for the excellent post, it was really very helpful n very detailed explanation in very simple language...:)

I'll try to summarize what i have understood so far on this topic here, plz point out any deficiencies u notice :)

What i have understood so far is SCC engines r the most complicated but the most efficient engines n Russia leads this tech with its RD180 n r generally used at 2nd or 1st stage to get the rocket outta Earth's atmosphere as they r highly efficient n have high thrust to weight ratio. Most countries r still trying to catch up with the Russians here. These engines r so efficient that they considerably reduce the additional booster requirement of the rocket.(Indian eg.- SC200)

Then comes the expander engines which r also complicated(but not as much as SCC) n here the US leads the package with its RL10 these r also efficient engines n r generally used at the upper stage to lift the satellites to its final position. These r smallest in size n have max thrust limitation(around 300kn).

The smaller size helps in reducing the over all weight of the upper payload making the rocket lighter in size(in comparision to using Gas Generator Engines in upper stage) Although these r smaller in size n have limited thrust but provide good thrust to weight ratio good enough to lift the satelittes at upper stage.

But most countries r either not able to make them small enough (RL10 vs RD56) to provide the necessary thrust at the upper stage.(Indian eg.- CE7.5)

The last one r the Gas Generator engines which r least complicated n can be easily expended to provide higher thrust at upper stage(as high as 1300kn) but r not very efficient(bcoz the Gas generated in not reused again) resulting in lower thrust to weight ratio.

But these r the most widely used engines world wide n r used by majority of the nations(Except US n Russia for upper stage). France leads it with there Vulcan Engine. (Indian eg.- CE20 n CE60).

Even though they provide high thrust but at the same time increased weight too but most countries prefer them due to their simplicity. But they have to use much bigger engines to produce the required T/W ratio(In comparision to Expander Engines).

Plz provide ur views on my understanding.

@S-DUCT i would like to hear ur comments too on my explanation...:agree:
 
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@Yogi:
From the pic posted by IND151,it is now clear that CE-60 will have staged combustion cycle.
20110802-India-Space-Shuttle-Reusable-Launch-Vehicle-16%25255B2%25255D.jpg

Thanx i didn't notice that i thought CE60 will be a Gas Generator Engine.

@S-DUCT
What r ur thoughts on the third engine i.e. the Nuclear powered one...:)
 
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