Credibility Under Question.

[Windjammer]

Futile? MiG-21 Bison suffers from maintenance problems but the jets are very well credible. Go do some research on MiG-21 Bison's avionics and its performance during various bilateral exercises.

And besides, MiG-21s are well exercised too. We sent them to Red Flag exercise for Christ sake.

I don't know why I am participating in this non-sense thread. Just because IAF didn't showcase the jets during the R-Day doesn't mean they are not credible.

The first of the two Bisons crashed while under going a test flight after upgrade. However to my orignal question, a member had already replied but i guess it's irresistible to be a nit pick. No one is questioning the capability of the aircraft but credibility as in reliability, there is a difference hence you answered with the maintenance issue.

 

[Windjammer]

Windjammer, you would make a good detective.

My friend a special rate for you of my humble services.

 

[Ruag]

The first of the two Bisons crashed while under going a test flight after upgrade. However to my orignal question, a member had already replied but i guess it's irresistible to be a nit pick. No one is questioning the capability of the aircraft but credibility as in reliability, there is a difference hence you answered with the maintenance issue.

Well... in that respect, I agree that the MiG-21s do suffer from severe reliability issues. And so do Mirage-2000. As a matter of fact, out of some 55 Mirages India has, 6 have been involved in crashes (I believe one of the crashed Mirages was repaired). That means that about 10% of the Mirages have crashed. Pathetic record.

But to say that IAF didn't showcase these jets because of reliability issues is baseless.

Reliability is not a major problem as long as extensive pre-flight checks are carried out.

P.S. IMO, it would have been more appropriate if you had used the term "Reliability" instead of "Credibility" in the title.

 

[karan.1970]

I don't know why I am participating in this non-sense thread.

I can tell you that.. Because WJ is very accomplished in Fishing.. His baits are too difficult to resist

 

[RPK]

India is not China or Pakistan show every machine in its inventory. India has its won policies what to show & what not to show.

Main Idea of fly past is to show latest weapons. As per your ideology Prithvi is not shown in parade, so do you think prithvi is not credible?

 

[Windjammer]

I can tell you that.. Because WJ is very accomplished in Fishing.. His baits are too difficult to resist

The tragedy is, there is plenty of fish but very few Gold fish out there.

 

[footmarks]

The IAF has at least six different types of combat aircraft in it's inventory, including SU-30, MIG-29, Jaguars, Mirage-2000, MIG-27 and MIG-21 respectively. However I am sure some of you must have also noticed that for last several years, only three types of the above have been participating in the Republic Day Fly Pasts, in fact the IAF hasn't been taking any risks with any of it's single engine aircraft to fly over the parade venue. Even when the French President was the guest of Honor a few years earlier, one did expect to see the Mirage-2000 participating but of the late only the twin engine aircraft have been conducting the event.
Is this just a coincidence or the safety of two engine is not being compromised. ? Perhaps some Indian members can shed some light on this short coming . Thanks.

If what you are saying is true, then I must appreciate your eye for detail. You have got a good shrewd mind. Whether your observation is right or wrong is a different matter altogether. But as it appears, you are a regular and keen follower of India's republic day parade.

 

[Windjammer]

Well... in that respect, I agree that the MiG-21s do suffer from severe reliability issues. And so do Mirage-2000. As a matter of fact, out of some 55 Mirages India has, 6 have been involved in crashes (I believe one of the crashed Mirages was repaired). That means that about 10% of the Mirages have crashed. Pathetic record.

But to say that IAF didn't showcase these jets because of reliability issues is baseless.

Reliability is not a major problem as long as extensive pre-flight checks are carried out.

P.S. IMO, it would have been more appropriate if you had used the term "Reliability" instead of "Credibility" in the title.

In my humble opinion, if a source is credible it can be counted on as reliable. However i think you need to endure a little more into the Mirage's history with the IAF as once i read that in late 80s the IAF suffered it's biggest peace time loss when the roof of a hanger collapsed, possible sabotage, destroying seven Mirage-2000s of Battle Axe Squadron while another two were damaged.
This news appeared in AirForces Monthly magazine which incidentally has two former IAF officers as contributors.

 

[karan.1970]

In my humble opinion, if a source is credible it can be counted on as reliable. However i think you need to endure a little more into the Mirage's history with the IAF as once i read that in late 80s the IAF suffered it's biggest peace time loss when the roof of a hanger collapsed, possible sabotage, destroying seven Mirage-2000s of Battle Axe Squadron while another two were damaged.
This news appeared in AirForces Monthly magazine which incidentally has two former IAF officers as contributors.

Are there any attrition rate statistics available for the 2 airforces??

I mean something like no of losees per 10000 flying hours etc

 

[Windjammer]

Are there any attrition rate statistics available for the 2 airforces??

I mean something like no of losees per 10000 flying hours etc

Although posted elsewhere, the following is a break down of disclosed Indian attrition for 2009. I am also working on to accumulate Pakistan's losses.


- (21 Jan) Kiran Mk-II trainer, Bidar District, 1 pilot killed (indian air force)

- (31 Jan) MiG-27 Flogger fighter, Jalpaiguri, no fatalities (indian air force)

- (04 Feb) IJT trainer, Bangalore, no fatalities (hal).

- (07 Mar) Saras transport, Bidadi, 3 crew killed (nal).

- (25 Mar) Ka-28 helicopter, Goa, no fatalities (indian navy).

- (30 Apr) Su-30Mki fighter, Jaiselmir, 1 pilot killed (indian air force)

- (15 May) MiG-27M (UPG) fighter, Jodhpur, no fatalities. (indian air force)

- (27 May) MiG-21 fighter, Jodhpur, no fatalities. (indian air force)

- (10 June) An-32 transport, Assam, 3 crew members and 10 passengers killed (indian air force)

- (18 June) MiG-21 (OFTU) fighter, Assam, no fatalities. (indian air force)

- (31 July) HPT-32 trainer, Andhra Pradesh, 2 pilots killed. (indian air force)

- (16 Aug) Cheetah helicopter, Ladakh, 2 officers and 1 soldier killed. (indian army)

- (21 Aug) Harrier fighter, Goa, 1 pilot killed. (indian navy)

- (10 Sept) MiG-21 (MF) fighter, Punjab, 1 pilot killed. (indian air force)

- (23 Oct) MiG-27 fighter, Jalpaiguri, no fatalities. (indian air force)

- (30 Oct) Mi-17 helicopter, Jummu, 2 pilots and 2 personel killed. (indian air force)

- (30 Nov) Su-30 fighter, Rajistan, no fatalities. (indian air force)

 

[karan.1970]

^^

I was reading in one of the wikipedia articles about India's aircraft losses to be close to 4.5 aircrafts per 100000 hours of flying against a NATO average of between 2 & 3. Now way back in 1996 Pakistan was operating with a number of 10 per 100000 hours. Now I am not able to get the India figures for that period or Pakistan figures for present time.. Was wondering if you or any other member had that...

 

[ek_indian]

Deleted the post.

 

[Windjammer]

^^

I was reading in one of the wikipedia articles about India's aircraft losses to be close to 4.5 aircrafts per 100000 hours of flying against a NATO average of between 2 & 3. Now way back in 1996 Pakistan was operating with a number of 10 per 100000 hours. Now I am not able to get the India figures for that period or Pakistan figures for present time.. Was wondering if you or any other member had that...

In 80s and 90s, India had one of the highest number of air crashes, so much so that there was a near mutiny. Due to this fact and alarming public, the Government of the day imposed an information black out, however that was lifted by the next government. Pakistan's attrition rate has never really been in the head lines to that effect.

 

[karan.1970]

In 80s and 90s, India had one of the highest number of air crashes, so much so that there was a near mutiny. Due to this fact and alarming public, the Government of the day imposed an information black out, however that was lifted by the next government. Pakistan's attrition rate has never really been in the head lines to that effect.

I was not trying to say that Pakistan's rate was worse.. Was just looking for some hard data.. Could find for PAF from 1997 but not IAF's. Was able to find for IAF from 2006 but not PAF.. Any sources that you are aware of will be appreciated..