What's new

Chinese thoughts on Islam and Muslims

Hmm which part?
Local muslims, who are mostly malays and some Indians- are integrated well with the rest of the populace. There is no animosity between the Chinese and them.

The interaction is just not on a high level.

i have many muslim friends myself. We are just not close. More like 'hi-bye' friends

Btw Bangladeshi muslims r not locals- they are work permit holders and they r mostly segegrated from the locals, living in ghetto-like worker's dormitories
 
.
Excellent read. I'll recommend you for the title of think tank analyst. Do keep posting.

@WebMaster @Horus

Thanks for adding my quote :-) I feel honoured. Just like to add that I personally have many close Pakistani friends and we openly talk about issues on life, culture, and politics all the time and would like to have similar conversations here.

I will try to explain it as concisely as i can.

Chinese whether they realise consciously or not look at arcs of history in the hundred year cycles and thousands of years arcs, we say long spans of time and reference history very casually in conversation. So we subconsciously understand history and what kept us alive and prosperous. Beyond the resilient family units, the core is a competent centralised government with its power base firmly inside China with its rulers deeply Chinese, although ethnically can be outsiders but must be 100% Chinese culturally. There were many instances in history, and that outside ethnicity was absorbed into China. Han ethnicity was not big because they just had a lot of kids, it was assimilation through culture and intermarriage. The difference between Chinese cultural assimilation and Islamic assimilation is geography. Islam and its followers seek to expand it boundlessly while Chinese culture will stop at its boundaries due to geography, will expand on that later.

Using the term "Middle Kingdom" is easier to explain than using "China" but they mean the same thing.

Formation of 3 key Middle Kingdom characteristics:
1. Centrality of civilisation (The view of exceptionalism)
2. Absorbing of Periphery and Invaders
3. Middle Kingdom governance

At the core of Chinese culture is family and lineage. From there we get the history of the Chinese civilization. Recent genetic testing showed 60% of Chinese people derive from 5 “super ancestors" 6000 years ago possibly proving the Shennong (God Farmer), Huang Di (Yellow Emperor), and Yan Di (Flame Emperor) mythology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shennong
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Emperor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yan_Emperor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yan_Huang_Zisun

If i had a simple answer why China cannot be or difficult to be Islamic and or Non-Chinese religion and that is geography.

When the middle kingdom was fragmented during "Spring and Autumn Period" nearly all of the action took place in the central plains of China. It was basically a bloody multi-century long war for unification. Eventually unifying under the Qin Kingdom which previously was viewed as a non-civilized kingdom, even the Chu was viewed as non-civilized kingdom before, then accepted into the civilized club effectively being absorbed into the Middle Kingdom concept. The core of China (central plains) is enclosed by the ocean and mountains without any major civilizations anywhere nearby, at that time Korea and Japan didn't have many people and were tribal. This formed the idea of the outsider and Middle Kingdom exceptionalism, there were no other civilisation nearby thus forming the thinking that the Middle Kingdom center is civilisation and anything outside is barbarian. The Middle Kingdom views everyone outside as others and doesn't put them to the same standard as the Middle Kingdom, they wont expect them to have the same customs or require it.
568px-Chinese_plain_5c._BC-en.svg.png

The map can be misleading, in fact at some points there were hundreds of tiny kingdoms.

Europ%C3%A4ische_Wasserscheiden.png

Europe also had the concept of the civilized world and barbarian world but they have a hard time unifying and its due to the mountain range in the center of Europe and river systems that divide the continent into shapes that look like modern national boundaries. Thus their natural state is division into seperate entities. Simply Europe is a Doughnut with a hole in the center and China is a ball.

China on the other hand has two major rivers that go through the central plains from West to East (Yellow river and Yangtze) which created the fertile plain but also flooded immense areas and killed many. Most of China's large natural disasters were floods from the rivers. The struggle throughout Chinese history was taming the rivers and making them useful for life but one small isolated tribe cannot do much thus a large and coordinated centralised bureaucracy is needed creating the Middle Kingdom governance. When that central power collapsed, the northern plains will almost instantly go into a state of war if fragmented and will quickly retake the rest of the country to reunify the Middle Kingdom.


Muslims pray facing the Kaaba in Mecca, this act of pray serves an as safe for information and is maintained through habit 5 times a day. It encode the message that the centre of your religion, your spirituality and eventually your loyalty is in mecca not the Middle Kingdom and mecca is ruled by Arabs who don't understand governance in China, for a smaller nation that is fine. But for China is destabilising and eventually if unified will become unislamic again. Refer to history, Moscow was the center of the Communist movement and thought that they could lead all socialist countries to communism, but soon they found out that China would not comply with their policies. Its because China has very different priorities, thus in 1962 relations soured. Noticed how as time progress the natural state of China begins to show, beyond the foreign ideologies China is transforming from communist ideals to "socialism with chinese characteristics", which is very far off from the original and was called capitalist traitors by USSR. Simply because China is so hard to govern that it requires it to take a very different path from the rest of the world, no other civilization went through similar journies and cant really help in governing China. The same can be said of Catholicism with the Vatican, probably worse considering they have a leading political figure who is also the legal king (or emperor). When the Mongols ruled China they were not loyal to the land, they always thought "if we don't succeed in holding China we can always go back to the stepps". Meanwhile the Manchus were much more successful because the few hundred years leading up to the Qing dynasty they were studying confusion philosophy and Chinese texts effectivly sino-fying themselves willingly. When they ruled Middle Kingdom they moved their entire forces into the central plains and eventually assimilating. Islamic texts doesn't offer the governance necessary for the Middle Kingdom's environment.

Because China is so hard to govern, all ideological governments eventually collapse or become practical. If pork was banned (pre globalization) in China many people would have starved to death as pork is one of the cheapest sources of protein and can be raised in confined spaces). China doesn't have the vast expances of Arabia to grow herds of lamb for everyone. Many of Islam's practices are cultural offshoots of Arabian culture, thus strict adherence to the Quran would be and unhealthy imposing of a culture that has not formed in the Middle Kingdom environment.

There is a concept in China called "入乡随俗" which translates to "When in Rome do as the Romans do". The concept comes from the understanding of cultural formation. Culture is a mere manifestation human expression within a defined environment. Understanding that in a controlled environment humans are very similar, if placed in a certain environment that person should best adopt its local customs as those customs developed and survived for very good reasons, surviving the test of time.
 
.
Local muslims are intergrated well with the rest of the populace. there is no animosity.

The interaction is just not on a high level.

i have many muslim friends myself. We are just not close. More like 'hi-bye' friends

Fair enough.
 
.
Fair enough.
I get my hair cut by my neighbourhood barber who is a muslim.
I have colleagues who are muslims whom i talk to about work.
I occasionally have Malay food for my meals that are prepared by muslims(though they will NEVER taste our Chinese 'haram' food)

There is certainly no animosity- it's just that we dont interact much beyond social courtesy greetings. There's an invisible mental barrier between us and them.

Singaporean Chinese or Mainland Chinese (in Singapore as expats, students or Permanent residents) posters here will 100% know where im comming from.

Thanks.

I get my hair cut by my neighbourhood barber who is a muslim.
I have colleagues who are muslims whom i talk to about work.
I occasionally have Malay food for my meals that are prepared by muslims(though they will NEVER have our Chinese 'haram' food)

There is certainly no animosity- it's just that we dont interact much beyond social courtesy greetings. There's an invisible mental barrier between us and them.

Singaporean Chinese or Mainland Chinese (in Singapore as expats, students or Permanent residents) posters here will 100% know where im comming from.

Thanks.
oh n there r tons of Mainland CHinese here in Singapore- they love flocking to our tiny island:

Jackie Chan is a Singaporean PR
jackie-chan-7-1.jpg


So is Jet Li:

Jet-Li.jpg


Gong Li:

gong-li-images_14043.jpg


Xu Nuoxuan:
20106210573530877805.jpg

Zhao Wei:
Zhao-Wei.jpg

Cecilia Cheung:
CeciliaCheung.jpg


Wu jianhao:
maxresdefault.jpg


Zhou Huajian:
images


Chinese people only like to visit progressive societies
 
Last edited:
.
The Chinese consciousness have been deeply affected (you can say scarred) by events of recent history (our recent means last 200 years) from foreign forces, has nothing to do with modern wars in Middle east or other things.

I understand my posts can provoke strong emotions, and deeply apologise for offensive posts. Please let me elaborate where this is coming from as I want to share with all my friends here. To understand China and its mindset/attitudes you must understand it's history.

Century of humiliation was a pivotal time for the foundation of modern Chinese thinking. It is slowly subsiding into our subconscious but still very evident today. It is something I must explain to others to understand why China thinks and acts the way it does today.

Century of Humiliation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_of_humiliation
My short description or wiki pages cannot do it justice but provides and insight into only the major and pivotal points.

China had engaged in trade with Europe for centuries. The trade was pretty straightforward; Europe wanted tea, silk, and porcelain, China only wants silver in payment. China only wanted silver because it thought Europeans goods were of no use to China (Chinese leader's hubris) and rejected science. Europe had an addiction to those Chinese goods and its treasuries were running low on silver so it sought silver from heavily taxing its colonies, possibly causing the American war of independence. Realising this is not a sustainable model, UK merchants found a brilliant solution; sell opium. Get the Chinese addicted so we can get our silver back. This kicked off a series of events.

The Qing court realised this was destroying the harmony of society with addicts/opium dens everywhere and acted by destroying the opium being shipped in from British India. This event triggered the East India Company to approach the crown back in UK to request forces to teach the Chinese a lesson in messing with their business. UK sent an armada to China to punish and reopen the opium trade.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_opium_at_Humen
57a5478e69d1bdab04a30d167b6a6752.jpg

Destruction of Opium in Humen

This triggered the First Opium war between UK and China, along with the second opium war and countless other conflicts. It was China's first taste of defeat from a European power. To keep the opium trade open UK needed a base of operations in China, forcing China to hand over Hong Kong in a series of "unequal treaties" to come. At the time the public in America and UK were outraged that they were conducting such practices but money was good for capitalists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Opium_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Opium_War


In fact some of the most powerful families and universities in America today were founded by opium traders selling opium to China, they were drug lords. They include the Franklin Roosevelt's grandfather, most of Ivy league schools, Princeton, Colombia, Yale (Skulls and Bones society),Bell telephone company to name a few. When Chinese go to America to study in Ivy league they the reminder of the past stares them in the face, they don't complain but they know. Most of the "establishment" politicians in America today had ancestors selling opium in China. At the same time the Anglo-American cartel forces the opium trade, Chinese people were treated like dogs literally within China by European imperialists, without human dignity but we live on. To rid themselves of the dirty work, the law enforcement was done by guards from British India, namely Sikhs thus giving Indians a bad historical reputation in Southern China like Hong Kong.
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2012/09...f-conflict-anglo-american-and-chinesehistory/
https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-bush-family-saga-airbrushed-out-of-history/5512738
Bruce Lee incorporated many elements of the struggle of the Century of Humiliation into his movies. He grew up during that time and experienced it first hand.

During the early-mid 19th century discontent within the Chinese people were brewing, not focused on the Europeans but the incompetent Qing government. This anger manifested itself in a series of uprisings against the Qing government such as Taiping rebellion (20-30 million dead) and Boxer rebellion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_wars_and_battles#Qing_dynasty_.281644.E2.80.931912.29

By the late 19th century Qing government realised its overwhelming incompetence in the face of foreign powers and wanted to reform and modernise. There were industry started along the Yangtze River in Wuhan and Shanghai. China adopted western firearms and uniforms in hopes of building a strong modern military. The Chinese government bought the best naval ships on the global market paying a heavy price, but China still had a decentralised military in charge of their own region that wont help each other. None the less China built the largest navy by tonnage in Asia, the Northern Fleet or Beiyang fleet (China had 4 fleets in total) alone was the largest in Asia (8th in the world, other 7 were all European powers) formed of European ships. Dispite the ships, corruption was rampant within the navy and lacked discipline. The sailors would travel around East Asia, pawning military hardware for cash to gamble.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beiyang_Fleet


Rise of Japan and the War of Jiawu

To the East is a rising power, Japan. Having been intimidated by the overwhelming firepower of American gun boats during the Perry expeditions to Japan, they finally opened up and started the Meji restoration in 1867 to transform Japan into a modern country. It started to rapidly modernise, not by buying European machines but understanding science and building their own industry. Seeing the backwardness and weakness of China it unleashed Japan's realisation that it had a historic opportunity to conquer Asia. Japan's relationship with China is complicated, it sees China has the origin of its traditional culture but wants to prove its superiority over China through humiliation, so the Chinese will bow down and submit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matth...dition:_Opening_of_Japan.2C_1852.E2.80.931854
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_Restoration

Tanaka Memorial, Japan's plan to conquer the world:
In order to take over the world, you need to take over Asia;
In order to take over Asia, you need to take over China;
In order to take over China, you need to take over Manchuria and Mongolia.
If we succeed in conquering China, the rest of the Asiatic countries and the South Sea countries will fear us and surrender to us.
Then the world will realize that Eastern Asia is ours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanaka_Memorial

By 1894 Japan was a power that could rival the Europeans, it was ready for action. It started the invasion of Korea, North East China and Taiwan to kick off its ambitious plans. When China was defeated during the first Jiawu war, aka first sino-japanese war in 1894 it made the backwardness of China evident and boosted Japan's sense of superiority over China and the Chinese race as they put it. China had lost Korea an ally/protectorate, its province of Taiwan, its own dignity, the best navy it can possibly come up with through buying advanced European ships (bigger than Japanese ships) was entirely destroyed, and lost modernisation of the nation. It was also forced to sign the Treaty of Shimonoseki. It confirmed the previous fear of backwardness starting when China lost concessions to European imperialism. This unleashed a wave of sons of Chinese elites studying in those very countries that have caused China this pain, with a large amount going to Japan to study. The thinking was "where we got defeated was where we should pick ourselves up". It awakened a group of civilians to the reality they must face or meet the death of their reality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sino-Japanese_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Shimonoseki
ngvNwGZ.jpg

7b231bf82493124202b11404ecd5a314.jpg

BN-DX823_chinaj_G_20140731225849.jpg

maxresdefault.jpg


Japan was victorious, defeating China was not enough, it must be humiliated. China must pay for the cost of war and more.
"After the war, according to the Chinese scholar Jin Xide, the Qing government paid a total of 340,000,000 taels (13,600 tons) of silver to Japan in both war reparations and trophies. This was equivalent to about 510,000,000 Japanese yen at the time, about 6.4 times the Japanese government's revenue."

Awakening of the Intellectual Elite
134715-004-055B4C9C.jpg
Chiang_Kai-shek.jpg

Dr. Sun Zhongshan (left) founding father of Republic of China, Chiang Kai Shek (right) KMT, president of ROC.
193880-004-A500A14C.jpg

Deng Xiaoping, President of People's Republic of China. In 1979 opened up China's market to the world.

Those that had the means to study abroad did, they saw the life of their civilisation flash before their eyes. Some prominent people that did were Chiang Kai Shek and Deng Xiaoping. Chiang Kai Shek studied in Japan while Deng Xiaoping in France. While in Japan Chiang studied in the Imperial Japanese Army Academy and served in the Japanese army from 1909-1911, forcing himself to overcome the humiliation put on him by the Japanese officers to toughen his spirit to fulfil his duty of restoring a broken China.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Kai-shek

After the First Sino-Japanese war China was exhausted, broken, demoralised and on the edge of collapse. The Qing court tries at another attempt to modernise the nation through sweeping reforms of the nation but it was too late.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Policies

This triggered the Boxer rebellion. The rebellion consisted of united militias in the goal of removing foreign influence from China. This alerted the imperial powers and created the "8-nation alliance" a military coalition to coerce the Qing government to fight the rebellion and fight the militias themselves.
slide_22.jpg

Soldiers of the 8 Nation alliance in China.
executions-during-the-boxer-rebellion-1900-CPHXFW.jpg

Execution (beheading) of boxer rebels after a failed rebellion. Chinese beheading Chinese as the 8-nation alliance watches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-Nation_Alliance

After this China goes into a state of perpetual civil conflict till 1949, starting with the fall of Qing Dynasty (1912), Xinhai Revolution, Warlord era, Republican ear, Second Sino-Japanese war, Civil war (ROC vs PRC). The darkness of Chinese civilization has yet to end.

End of Perpetual Civil conflict
In 1949 the Chinese civil war ended, the ROC government retreats to the island of Taiwan, setting up the Taipei government. Chiang Kai Shek even after loosing the mainland refuses to give up the dream of an united China, dispite his disagreement with Mao, there is only one China in his mind. He cannot answer to his humiliated ancestors if he had given up that dream of a restored China. This culminates the hundred years of wars on Chinese soil since the first opium war with UK. In 1949 Mao said, "The Chinese people had stood up". What did he mean? China was still a backwards, dirt poor, unindustrialised civilisation composed of mostly peasants but it's starting to feel whole again, the civilization is starting to regain its soul.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Civil_War

The Korean war
In 1950 one year after the end of the Chinese civil war on the mainland. China had a ruined intrastructure, starving people, empty treasury (government assets were moved to taiwan with the KMT), scientific and intellectual elites left for Taiwan but moral was at a historic high. Every Chinese person at that time knows this is the end and the beginning.

From China's point of view, the North Koreans have just invaded the south to unify Korea with Soviet help. China was too crippled for this war but Americans saw this as communism spreading. Utilising their mobility and firepower they quickly pushed back from Busan and to the Yalu River on the Chinese-Korean border. To China this had very little to do with spreading communist beliefs, we are very defensive in nature. When the American forces were closing in, every Chinese knows in their hearts this was not a war with America or capitalism, this was a war with the entire western global system and western civilisation that had caused China pain and suffering, if Chinese were to look their ancestors in the face and respect them, this is a war they must fight and win. North Korean forces were destroyed, Soviets don't want to trigger an nuclear war, China must face USA and the UN forces. The PLA didn't have the luxury of industrial production as the US, but it had high moral. To the Chinese the Korean war was the culmination of the century of humiliation, it proved to themselves they are not inferior to western civilisation and can restore order to a destroyed civilisation. Death was better than losing this opportunity to fulfil a historic destiny.

In the American recall of the war, they could not understand why the Chinese soldiers were so relentless, fearless, and fanatical, they were not crazy about communism or spreading it but a sense of historic destiny. In the battle of triangle hill the granite hilltop was shaved down 2 meters and turned to a meter thick layer of ash from constant bombardment by the US. The Chinese soldiers have dug in and prepared for a final stand. Eventually stopping the US 8th Army group. Peace talks ensued.

Battle_of_Triangle_Hill.jpg

Empty US artillery shells, battle of Triangle Hill
Battle_of_Triangle_Hill_Grenade_Throwers.jpg

Chinese soldiers throwing rocks at attackers after running out of ammunition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Triangle_Hill

Korean war and the impact on the Chinese mindset
This was not just a war for China, Chinese all around the world was watching, they understood what was happening in a historical sense. Lee Kwan Yew the founder of Singapore initially rejected learning the Chinese language calling it useless. What use is a language used by useless people? But the Korean war changed his world view forever, at that time he starting to learn Mandarin. No longer are Chinese a useless people, a useless civilisation that cannot contribute to the world. Through that he foresaw China's rise, China has escaped the 200 year trap. The Korean war was symbolic in that Chinese were no longer a useless, helpless people that couldn't fend for themselves and the discovery was that the key to the Chinese civilisation was its spirit and soul. Through the turmoils it has faced through the century of humiliation it has finally found it again.

The Chinese today, learn and study this history all their lives and realise our ancestors have sacrificed immensely to enable us to live in this precious era. It is irresponsible and defacing to our ancestors and future generations if we spoil this opportunity.

Through the century of humiliation China had regained a sense of self purpose and identity, very cautious attitude towards external influence but strong desire to connect with the world and regain it's historic role, also a strong rejection of one's backwardness

China officially rejects all unequal treaties which causes all the territory disputes we see today.

In terms of improving Chinese Islamic relations I don't have all the answers but I think there is a framework. Much like when China opened up to the world and the rise of China occured it had to prove itself to the world through action. It had to prove other people's fears about it wrong, that it was not going to collapse like the USSR, invading others like imperialist Japan or nazi Germany. There were real fears about China from others and I can understand where it comes from. First step is to build trust through dialogue, then engagement through simple actions of solving common problems, maybe planting trees together to lessen desertification.
 
Last edited:
.
Again I would like to convince others that I or other Chinese do not feel negatively about Muslims or any non-Chinese in a hateful way, its just that the Chinese consciousness have been deeply affected (you can say scarred) by events of recent history (our recent means last 200 years) from foreign forces, has nothing to do with modern wars in Middle east or other things.

I understand my posts can provoke strong emotions, and deeply apologise for offensive posts. Please let me elaborate where this is coming from as I want to share with all my friends here.

Century of humiliation was a pivotal time for the foundation of modern Chinese thinking. It is slowly subsiding into our subconscious but still very evident today. It is something I must explain to others to understand why China thinks and acts the way it does today.

Century of Humiliation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_of_humiliation
My short description or wiki pages cannot do it justice but provides and insight into only the major and pivotal points.

China had engaged in trade with Europe for centuries. The trade was pretty straightforward; Europe wanted tea, silk, and porcelain, China only wants silver in payment. China only wanted silver because it thought Europeans goods were of no use to China (Chinese leader's hubris) and rejected science. Europe had an addiction to those Chinese goods and its treasuries were running low on silver so it sought silver from heavily taxing its colonies, possibly causing the American war of independence. Realising this is not a sustainable model, UK merchants found a brilliant solution; sell opium. Get the Chinese addicted so we can get our silver back. This kicked off a series of events.

The Qing court realised this was destroying the harmony of society with addicts/opium dens everywhere and acted by destroying the opium being shipped in from British India. This event triggered the East India Company to approach the crown back in UK to request forces to teach the Chinese a lesson in messing with their business. UK sent an armada to China to punish and reopen the opium trade.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_opium_at_Humen
57a5478e69d1bdab04a30d167b6a6752.jpg

Destruction of Opium in Humen

This triggered the First Opium war between UK and China, along with the second opium war and countless other conflicts. It was China's first taste of defeat from a European power. To keep the opium trade open UK needed a base of operations in China, forcing China to hand over Hong Kong in a series of "unequal treaties" to come. At the time the public in America and UK were outraged that they were conducting such practices but money was good for capitalists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Opium_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Opium_War


In fact some of the most powerful families and universities in America today were founded by opium traders selling opium to China, they were drug lords. They include the Franklin Roosevelt's grandfather, most of Ivy league schools, Princeton, Colombia, Yale (Skulls and Bones society),Bell telephone company to name a few. When Chinese go to America to study in Ivy league they the reminder of the past stares them in the face, they don't complain but they know. Most of the "establishment" politicians in America today had ancestors selling opium in China. At the same time the Anglo-American cartel forces the opium trade, Chinese people were treated like dogs literally within China by European imperialists, without human dignity but we live on. To rid themselves of the dirty work, the law enforcement was done by guards from British India, namely Sikhs thus giving Indians a bad historical reputation in Southern China like Hong Kong.
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2012/09...f-conflict-anglo-american-and-chinesehistory/
https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-bush-family-saga-airbrushed-out-of-history/5512738
Bruce Lee incorporated many elements of the struggle of the Century of Humiliation into his movies. He grew up during that time and experienced it first hand.

During the early-mid 19th century discontent within the Chinese people were brewing, not focused on the Europeans but the incompetent Qing government. This anger manifested itself in a series of uprisings against the Qing government such as Taiping rebellion (20-30 million dead) and Boxer rebellion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_wars_and_battles#Qing_dynasty_.281644.E2.80.931912.29

By the late 19th century Qing government realised its overwhelming incompetence in the face of foreign powers and wanted to reform and modernise. There were industry started along the Yangtze River in Wuhan and Shanghai. China adopted western firearms and uniforms in hopes of building a strong modern military. The Chinese government bought the best naval ships on the global market paying a heavy price, but China still had a decentralised military in charge of their own region that wont help each other. None the less China built the largest navy by tonnage in Asia, the Northern Fleet or Beiyang fleet (China had 4 fleets in total) alone was the largest in Asia (8th in the world, other 7 were all European powers) formed of European ships. Dispite the ships, corruption was rampant within the navy and lacked discipline. The sailors would travel around East Asia, pawning military hardware for cash to gamble.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beiyang_Fleet


Rise of Japan and the War of Jiawu

To the East is a rising power, Japan. Having been intimidated by the overwhelming firepower of American gun boats during the Perry expeditions to Japan, they finally opened up and started the Meji restoration in 1867 to transform Japan into a modern country. It started to rapidly modernise, not by buying European machines but understanding science and building their own industry. Seeing the backwardness and weakness of China it unleashed Japan's realisation that it had a historic opportunity to conquer Asia. Japan's relationship with China is complicated, it sees China has the origin of its traditional culture but wants to prove its superiority over China through humiliation, so the Chinese will bow down and submit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matth...dition:_Opening_of_Japan.2C_1852.E2.80.931854
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_Restoration

Tanaka Memorial, Japan's plan to conquer the world:
In order to take over the world, you need to take over Asia;
In order to take over Asia, you need to take over China;
In order to take over China, you need to take over Manchuria and Mongolia.
If we succeed in conquering China, the rest of the Asiatic countries and the South Sea countries will fear us and surrender to us.
Then the world will realize that Eastern Asia is ours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanaka_Memorial

By 1894 Japan was a power that could rival the Europeans, it was ready for action. It started the invasion of Korea and Taiwan to kick off its ambitious plans. When China was defeated during the first Jiawu war, aka first sino-japanese war in 1894 it made the backwardness of China evident and boosted Japan's sense of superiority over China and the Chinese race as they put it. China had lost Korea an ally/protectorate, its province of Taiwan, its own dignity, the best navy it can possibly come up with through buying advanced European ships (bigger than Japanese ships), and lost modernisation of the nation. It was also forced to sign the Treaty of Shimonoseki. It confirmed the previous fear of backwardness starting when China lost concessions to European imperialism. This unleashed a wave of sons of Chinese elites studying in those very countries that have caused China this pain, with a large amount going to Japan to study. The thinking was "where we got defeated was where we should pick ourselves up". It awakened a group of civilians to the reality they must face or meet the death of their reality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sino-Japanese_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Shimonoseki
ngvNwGZ.jpg

7b231bf82493124202b11404ecd5a314.jpg

BN-DX823_chinaj_G_20140731225849.jpg

maxresdefault.jpg


Japan was victorious, defeating China was not enough, it must be humiliated. China must pay for the cost of war and more.
"After the war, according to the Chinese scholar Jin Xide, the Qing government paid a total of 340,000,000 taels (13,600 tons) of silver to Japan in both war reparations and trophies. This was equivalent to about 510,000,000 Japanese yen at the time, about 6.4 times the Japanese government's revenue."

Awakening of the Intellectual Elite
134715-004-055B4C9C.jpg
Chiang_Kai-shek.jpg

Dr. Sun Zhongshan (left) founding father of Republic of China, Chiang Kai Shek (right) KMT, president of ROC.
193880-004-A500A14C.jpg

Deng Xiaoping, President of People's Republic of China. In 1979 opened up China's market to the world.

Those that had the means to study abroad did, they saw the death of their civilisation flash before their eyes. Some prominent people that did were Chiang Kai Shek and Deng Xiaoping. Chiang Kai Shek studied in Japan while Deng Xiaoping in France. While in Japan Chiang studied in the Imperial Japanese Army Academy and served in the Japanese army from 1909-1911, forcing himself to overcome the humiliation put on him by the Japanese officers to toughen his spirit to fulfil his destiny of restoring a broken China.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Kai-shek

After the First Sino-Japanese war China was exhausted, broken, demoralised and on the edge of collapse. The Qing court tries at another attempt to modernise the nation through sweeping reforms of the nation but it was too late.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Policies

This triggered the Boxer rebellion. The rebellion consisted of united militias in the goal of removing foreign influence from China. This alerted the imperial powers and created the "8-nation alliance" a military coalition to coerce the Qing government to fight the rebellion and fight the militias themselves.
slide_22.jpg

Soldiers of the 8 Nation alliance in China.
executions-during-the-boxer-rebellion-1900-CPHXFW.jpg

Execution (beheading) of boxer rebels after a failed rebellion. Chinese beheading Chinese as the 8-nation alliance watches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-Nation_Alliance

After this China goes into a state of perpetual civil conflict till 1949, starting with the fall of Qing Dynasty (1912), Warlord era, Second Sino-Japanese war, Civil war (ROC vs PRC). The darkness of Chinese civilization has yet to end.

End of Perpetual Civil conflict
In 1949 the Chinese civil war ended, the ROC government retreats to the island of Taiwan, setting up the Taipei government. Chiang Kai Shek even after loosing the mainland refuses to give up the dream of an united China, dispite his disagreement with Mao, there is only one China in his mind. He cannot answer to his humiliated ancestors if he had given up that dream of a restored China. This culminates the hundred years of wars on Chinese soil since the first opium war with UK. In 1949 Mao said, "The Chinese people had stood up". What does he mean? China was a backwards, dirt poor, industrialised civilisation composed of mostly peasants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Civil_War

The Korean war
In 1950 one year after the end of the Chinese civil war on the mainland. China had a ruined intrastructure, starving people, empty treasury (government assets were moved to taiwan with the KMT), scientific and intellectual elites left for Taiwan but moral was at a historic high. Every Chinese person at that time knows this is the end and the beginning.

From China's point of view, the North Koreans have just invaded the south to unify Korea with Soviet help. China was too crippled for this war but Americans saw this as communism spreading. Utilising their mobility and firepower they quickly pushed back from Busan and to the Yalu River on the Chinese-Korean border. To China this had very little to do with spreading communist beliefs, we are very defensive in nature. When the American forces were closing in, every Chinese knows in their hearts this was not a war with America or capitalism, this was a war with the entire western global system and western civilisation that had caused China pain and suffering, if Chinese were to look their ancestors in the face and respect them, this is a war they must fight and win. North Korean forces were destroyed, Soviets don't want to trigger an nuclear war, China must face USA and the UN forces. The PLA didn't have the luxury of industrial production as the US, but it had high moral. To the Chinese the Korean war was the culmination of the century of humiliation, it proved to themselves they are not inferior to western civilisation and can restore order to a destroyed civilisation. Death was better than losing this opportunity to fulfil a historic destiny.

In the American recall of the war, they could not understand why the Chinese soldiers were so relentless, fearless, and fanatical, they were not crazy about communism or spreading it but a sense of historic destiny. In the battle of triangle hill the granite hilltop was shaved down 2 meters and turned to a meter thick layer of ash from constant bombardment by the US. The Chinese soldiers have dug in and prepared for a final stand. Eventually stopping the US 8th Army group. Peace talks ensued.

Battle_of_Triangle_Hill.jpg

Empty US artillery shells, battle of Triangle Hill
Battle_of_Triangle_Hill_Grenade_Throwers.jpg

Chinese soldiers throwing rocks at attackers after running out of ammunition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Triangle_Hill

Korean war and the impact on the Chinese mindset
This was not just a war for China, Chinese all around the world was watching, they understood what was happening in a historical sense. Lee Kwan Yew the founder of Singapore initially rejected learning the Chinese language calling it useless. What use is a language used by useless people? But the Korean war changed his world view forever, at that time he starting to learn Mandarin. No longer are Chinese a useless people, a useless civilisation that cannot contribute to the world. Through that he foresaw China's rise, China has escaped the 200 year trap. The Korean was symbolic in that Chinese were no longer a useless, helpless people that couldn't fend for themselves and the discovery was that the key to the Chinese civilisation was its spirit and soul. Through the turmoils it has faced through the century of humiliation it has finally found it again.

The Chinese today, learn and study this history all their lives and realise our ancestors have sacrificed immensely to enable us to live in this precious era. It is irresponsible and defacing to our ancestors and future generations if we spoil this opportunity.

China officially rejects all unequal treaties which causes all the territory disputes we see today.
Dude, i appreciate your efforts of explaining the complex oppinions of Chinese people regarding to foreign force's intervene, but it is too long and of quite some mistakes. I suggest you just decribes to our Pakistan friends the two rebellions (one's led by Christian heterodoxy, another one's led by Hui muslim)related to religions which led to the tremedous loss of population of China in 19 century, cause the topic is "Chinese thoughts on Islam and Muslims".
 
.
Again I would like to convince others that I or other Chinese do not feel negatively about Muslims or any non-Chinese in a hateful way, its just that the Chinese consciousness have been deeply affected (you can say scarred) by events of recent history (our recent means last 200 years) from foreign forces, has nothing to do with modern wars in Middle east or other things.

I understand my posts can provoke strong emotions, and deeply apologise for offensive posts. Please let me elaborate where this is coming from as I want to share with all my friends here.

Century of humiliation was a pivotal time for the foundation of modern Chinese thinking. It is slowly subsiding into our subconscious but still very evident today. It is something I must explain to others to understand why China thinks and acts the way it does today.

Century of Humiliation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_of_humiliation
My short description or wiki pages cannot do it justice but provides and insight into only the major and pivotal points.

China had engaged in trade with Europe for centuries. The trade was pretty straightforward; Europe wanted tea, silk, and porcelain, China only wants silver in payment. China only wanted silver because it thought Europeans goods were of no use to China (Chinese leader's hubris) and rejected science. Europe had an addiction to those Chinese goods and its treasuries were running low on silver so it sought silver from heavily taxing its colonies, possibly causing the American war of independence. Realising this is not a sustainable model, UK merchants found a brilliant solution; sell opium. Get the Chinese addicted so we can get our silver back. This kicked off a series of events.

The Qing court realised this was destroying the harmony of society with addicts/opium dens everywhere and acted by destroying the opium being shipped in from British India. This event triggered the East India Company to approach the crown back in UK to request forces to teach the Chinese a lesson in messing with their business. UK sent an armada to China to punish and reopen the opium trade.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_opium_at_Humen
57a5478e69d1bdab04a30d167b6a6752.jpg

Destruction of Opium in Humen

This triggered the First Opium war between UK and China, along with the second opium war and countless other conflicts. It was China's first taste of defeat from a European power. To keep the opium trade open UK needed a base of operations in China, forcing China to hand over Hong Kong in a series of "unequal treaties" to come. At the time the public in America and UK were outraged that they were conducting such practices but money was good for capitalists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Opium_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Opium_War


In fact some of the most powerful families and universities in America today were founded by opium traders selling opium to China, they were drug lords. They include the Franklin Roosevelt's grandfather, most of Ivy league schools, Princeton, Colombia, Yale (Skulls and Bones society),Bell telephone company to name a few. When Chinese go to America to study in Ivy league they the reminder of the past stares them in the face, they don't complain but they know. Most of the "establishment" politicians in America today had ancestors selling opium in China. At the same time the Anglo-American cartel forces the opium trade, Chinese people were treated like dogs literally within China by European imperialists, without human dignity but we live on. To rid themselves of the dirty work, the law enforcement was done by guards from British India, namely Sikhs thus giving Indians a bad historical reputation in Southern China like Hong Kong.
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2012/09...f-conflict-anglo-american-and-chinesehistory/
https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-bush-family-saga-airbrushed-out-of-history/5512738
Bruce Lee incorporated many elements of the struggle of the Century of Humiliation into his movies. He grew up during that time and experienced it first hand.

During the early-mid 19th century discontent within the Chinese people were brewing, not focused on the Europeans but the incompetent Qing government. This anger manifested itself in a series of uprisings against the Qing government such as Taiping rebellion (20-30 million dead) and Boxer rebellion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_wars_and_battles#Qing_dynasty_.281644.E2.80.931912.29

By the late 19th century Qing government realised its overwhelming incompetence in the face of foreign powers and wanted to reform and modernise. There were industry started along the Yangtze River in Wuhan and Shanghai. China adopted western firearms and uniforms in hopes of building a strong modern military. The Chinese government bought the best naval ships on the global market paying a heavy price, but China still had a decentralised military in charge of their own region that wont help each other. None the less China built the largest navy by tonnage in Asia, the Northern Fleet or Beiyang fleet (China had 4 fleets in total) alone was the largest in Asia (8th in the world, other 7 were all European powers) formed of European ships. Dispite the ships, corruption was rampant within the navy and lacked discipline. The sailors would travel around East Asia, pawning military hardware for cash to gamble.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beiyang_Fleet


Rise of Japan and the War of Jiawu

To the East is a rising power, Japan. Having been intimidated by the overwhelming firepower of American gun boats during the Perry expeditions to Japan, they finally opened up and started the Meji restoration in 1867 to transform Japan into a modern country. It started to rapidly modernise, not by buying European machines but understanding science and building their own industry. Seeing the backwardness and weakness of China it unleashed Japan's realisation that it had a historic opportunity to conquer Asia. Japan's relationship with China is complicated, it sees China has the origin of its traditional culture but wants to prove its superiority over China through humiliation, so the Chinese will bow down and submit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matth...dition:_Opening_of_Japan.2C_1852.E2.80.931854
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_Restoration

Tanaka Memorial, Japan's plan to conquer the world:
In order to take over the world, you need to take over Asia;
In order to take over Asia, you need to take over China;
In order to take over China, you need to take over Manchuria and Mongolia.
If we succeed in conquering China, the rest of the Asiatic countries and the South Sea countries will fear us and surrender to us.
Then the world will realize that Eastern Asia is ours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanaka_Memorial

By 1894 Japan was a power that could rival the Europeans, it was ready for action. It started the invasion of Korea, North East China and Taiwan to kick off its ambitious plans. When China was defeated during the first Jiawu war, aka first sino-japanese war in 1894 it made the backwardness of China evident and boosted Japan's sense of superiority over China and the Chinese race as they put it. China had lost Korea an ally/protectorate, its province of Taiwan, its own dignity, the best navy it can possibly come up with through buying advanced European ships (bigger than Japanese ships) was entirely destroyed, and lost modernisation of the nation. It was also forced to sign the Treaty of Shimonoseki. It confirmed the previous fear of backwardness starting when China lost concessions to European imperialism. This unleashed a wave of sons of Chinese elites studying in those very countries that have caused China this pain, with a large amount going to Japan to study. The thinking was "where we got defeated was where we should pick ourselves up". It awakened a group of civilians to the reality they must face or meet the death of their reality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sino-Japanese_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Shimonoseki
ngvNwGZ.jpg

7b231bf82493124202b11404ecd5a314.jpg

BN-DX823_chinaj_G_20140731225849.jpg

maxresdefault.jpg


Japan was victorious, defeating China was not enough, it must be humiliated. China must pay for the cost of war and more.
"After the war, according to the Chinese scholar Jin Xide, the Qing government paid a total of 340,000,000 taels (13,600 tons) of silver to Japan in both war reparations and trophies. This was equivalent to about 510,000,000 Japanese yen at the time, about 6.4 times the Japanese government's revenue."

Awakening of the Intellectual Elite
134715-004-055B4C9C.jpg
Chiang_Kai-shek.jpg

Dr. Sun Zhongshan (left) founding father of Republic of China, Chiang Kai Shek (right) KMT, president of ROC.
193880-004-A500A14C.jpg

Deng Xiaoping, President of People's Republic of China. In 1979 opened up China's market to the world.

Those that had the means to study abroad did, they saw the death of their civilisation flash before their eyes. Some prominent people that did were Chiang Kai Shek and Deng Xiaoping. Chiang Kai Shek studied in Japan while Deng Xiaoping in France. While in Japan Chiang studied in the Imperial Japanese Army Academy and served in the Japanese army from 1909-1911, forcing himself to overcome the humiliation put on him by the Japanese officers to toughen his spirit to fulfil his destiny of restoring a broken China.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Kai-shek

After the First Sino-Japanese war China was exhausted, broken, demoralised and on the edge of collapse. The Qing court tries at another attempt to modernise the nation through sweeping reforms of the nation but it was too late.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Policies

This triggered the Boxer rebellion. The rebellion consisted of united militias in the goal of removing foreign influence from China. This alerted the imperial powers and created the "8-nation alliance" a military coalition to coerce the Qing government to fight the rebellion and fight the militias themselves.
slide_22.jpg

Soldiers of the 8 Nation alliance in China.
executions-during-the-boxer-rebellion-1900-CPHXFW.jpg

Execution (beheading) of boxer rebels after a failed rebellion. Chinese beheading Chinese as the 8-nation alliance watches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-Nation_Alliance

After this China goes into a state of perpetual civil conflict till 1949, starting with the fall of Qing Dynasty (1912), Xinhai Revolution, Warlord era, Republican ear, Second Sino-Japanese war, Civil war (ROC vs PRC). The darkness of Chinese civilization has yet to end.

End of Perpetual Civil conflict
In 1949 the Chinese civil war ended, the ROC government retreats to the island of Taiwan, setting up the Taipei government. Chiang Kai Shek even after loosing the mainland refuses to give up the dream of an united China, dispite his disagreement with Mao, there is only one China in his mind. He cannot answer to his humiliated ancestors if he had given up that dream of a restored China. This culminates the hundred years of wars on Chinese soil since the first opium war with UK. In 1949 Mao said, "The Chinese people had stood up". What does he mean? China was a backwards, dirt poor, industrialised civilisation composed of mostly peasants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Civil_War

The Korean war
In 1950 one year after the end of the Chinese civil war on the mainland. China had a ruined intrastructure, starving people, empty treasury (government assets were moved to taiwan with the KMT), scientific and intellectual elites left for Taiwan but moral was at a historic high. Every Chinese person at that time knows this is the end and the beginning.

From China's point of view, the North Koreans have just invaded the south to unify Korea with Soviet help. China was too crippled for this war but Americans saw this as communism spreading. Utilising their mobility and firepower they quickly pushed back from Busan and to the Yalu River on the Chinese-Korean border. To China this had very little to do with spreading communist beliefs, we are very defensive in nature. When the American forces were closing in, every Chinese knows in their hearts this was not a war with America or capitalism, this was a war with the entire western global system and western civilisation that had caused China pain and suffering, if Chinese were to look their ancestors in the face and respect them, this is a war they must fight and win. North Korean forces were destroyed, Soviets don't want to trigger an nuclear war, China must face USA and the UN forces. The PLA didn't have the luxury of industrial production as the US, but it had high moral. To the Chinese the Korean war was the culmination of the century of humiliation, it proved to themselves they are not inferior to western civilisation and can restore order to a destroyed civilisation. Death was better than losing this opportunity to fulfil a historic destiny.

In the American recall of the war, they could not understand why the Chinese soldiers were so relentless, fearless, and fanatical, they were not crazy about communism or spreading it but a sense of historic destiny. In the battle of triangle hill the granite hilltop was shaved down 2 meters and turned to a meter thick layer of ash from constant bombardment by the US. The Chinese soldiers have dug in and prepared for a final stand. Eventually stopping the US 8th Army group. Peace talks ensued.

Battle_of_Triangle_Hill.jpg

Empty US artillery shells, battle of Triangle Hill
Battle_of_Triangle_Hill_Grenade_Throwers.jpg

Chinese soldiers throwing rocks at attackers after running out of ammunition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Triangle_Hill

Korean war and the impact on the Chinese mindset
This was not just a war for China, Chinese all around the world was watching, they understood what was happening in a historical sense. Lee Kwan Yew the founder of Singapore initially rejected learning the Chinese language calling it useless. What use is a language used by useless people? But the Korean war changed his world view forever, at that time he starting to learn Mandarin. No longer are Chinese a useless people, a useless civilisation that cannot contribute to the world. Through that he foresaw China's rise, China has escaped the 200 year trap. The Korean was symbolic in that Chinese were no longer a useless, helpless people that couldn't fend for themselves and the discovery was that the key to the Chinese civilisation was its spirit and soul. Through the turmoils it has faced through the century of humiliation it has finally found it again.

The Chinese today, learn and study this history all their lives and realise our ancestors have sacrificed immensely to enable us to live in this precious era. It is irresponsible and defacing to our ancestors and future generations if we spoil this opportunity.

China officially rejects all unequal treaties which causes all the territory disputes we see today.
wtf i knew the yellow river changed course several times throughout China's history- but i didnt know its mouth was in Jiangsu(always thought it was somewhere around the border between hebei and shandong)

Dude, i appreciate your efforts of explaining the complex oppinions of Chinese people regarding to foreign force's intervene, but it is too long and of quite some mistakes. I suggest you just decribes to our Pakistan friends the two rebellions (one's led by Christian heterodoxy, another one's led by Hui muslim)related to religions which led to the tremedous loss of population of China in 19 century, cause the topic is "Chinese thoughts on Islam and Muslims".
ya- sounded like the thread's title was 'China's history with foreigners'
 
.
Dude, i appreciate your efforts of explaining the complex oppinions of Chinese people regarding to foreign force's intervene, but it is too long and of quite some mistakes. I suggest you just decribes to our Pakistan friends the two rebellions (one's led by Christian heterodoxy, another one's led by Hui muslim)related to religions which led to the tremedous loss of population of China in 19 century, cause the topic is "Chinese thoughts on Islam and Muslims".

My bad, was writing this rant before my morning classes. Not well edited or revised at all. I started with the argument of Chinese view all outsiders with suspicion for a genuine reason then tried to fill the storyline from the top of my head. I agree with you that historical accuracy of events is not up to par.
 
.
Most Chinese are usually neutral towards Muslims.

But people in the west can be hostile to Muslims.

Chinese people are allies with Pakistan.
If that was the case, I'm sure you will not be living in a western country that hates you , you will be living in China, Russia or N. Korea, Iran or any other non-western imperialistic country
 
.
If that was the case, I'm sure you will not be living in a western country that hates you , you will be living in China, Russia or N. Korea, Iran or any other non-western imperialistic country
I have met people in the west who are hostile to Muslims.

Nice try though.

Even Iran is not a good country to live in for Sunnis.
 
.
I have met people in the west who are hostile to Muslims
You haven't met people in any other country who are hostile to Muslims?lol

Moreover, that's a very vague statement to be honest. There are people like that everywhere around the world, they are a tiny minority in the west and sidelined. I'm sure you will agree with me that your region is even worse in this regard.

If western countries were that bad for muslims, then I'm sure millions of Muslims won't be risking their lives in the sea and desert to migrate here or claim asylum here away from their repressive/abusive/poor home countries.
 
.
You haven't met people in any other country who are hostile to Muslims?lol

Moreover, that's a very vague statement to be honest. If western countries were that bad for muslims, then I'm sure millions of Muslims won't be risking their lives in the sea and desert to migrate here or claim asylum here away from their repressive/abusive/poor home countries.
If it was my political choice I would go back to Pakistan.

However I am seeking a better education.

Thats the only reason why I went overseas. Otherwise I would never go to the west.
 
.
If it was my political choice I would go back to Pakistan.

However I am seeking a better education.

Thats the only reason why I went overseas. Otherwise I would never go to the west.
LOL Really?
You are an adult dude. I'm sure you are not underage. Just like I told another member on here you can make decisions for yourself.
Seeking a better education is not a good excuse. I'm sure there are universities and colleges in pakistan, there must even be religious Islamic schools there which teaches about the virtues and values of Islam etc. So if you valued your religion and values more than western immoral education you would have never left pakistan for a kafir western country, at the very least you would have migrated to KSA, Turkey, Egypt etc, since they are Muslim countries and they have similar religious values/ideology. The west should have been the last country in your list to be honest.
So it depends on what your priorities are, what you want/seek in life and what you think is more important to you.
 
.
LOL Really?
You are an adult dude. I'm sure you are not underage. Just like I told another member on here you can make decisions for yourself.
Seeking a better education is not a good excuse. I'm sure there are universities and colleges in pakistan, there must even be religious Islamic schools there which teaches about the virtues and values of Islam etc. So if you valued your religion and values more than western immoral education you would have never left pakistan for a kafir western country, at the very least you would have migrated to KSA, Turkey, Egypt etc, since they are Muslim countries and they have similar religious values/ideology. The west should have been the last country in your list to be honest.
So it depends on what your priorities are, what you want/seek in life and what you think is more important to you.
Listen jackass, You are sure you are not underage?

In life you have to go to places you do not like in order to get something in life. :lol:

Western education is not immoral. :lol:

Just their society is.

I even met a poor Afghanistani in Canada, he came because there are better opportunities.

but if it was his choice he said he would live in the gulf countries.
 
.
I said no such thing, you choose to misinterpret. This is a personal problem with you, you should not hide behind Chinese culture for your own issues.

You're clearly a person who is an introvert. You express fear of the unknown and awkwardness at difference. I suspect you would have the same reaction if you were offered pepsi instead of coca-cola. You have trivialised the term "clash of cultures" down to dogs and pork.

I respect your right to your perspective, but it is alien to me. I think it's alien to most people who live in multicultural societies. Hindu's cannot eat beef - it's has never once caused any awkwardness between myself or a hindu. The society my ancestors come from is one where Muslim, Hindu, Sikh have co-existed for hundreds of years. Some of those times have been easier than others, depending on how responsible the rulers were.

I live in a society where there are dozens of cultures, co-existing. The wide berth that the state provides, the liberty to do what you want, means there is no clash of cultures, simply a co-existence. I ate lunch on the weekend in a kurdish owned, turkish resturant and in the same resturant there was a somali family, an arab family, a group of polish men, some english guys and some roma gypsies. I get my car washed from an Iraqi owned business which hires eastern european workers - some of those guys don't even speak english, their colleagues translate! Every department lunch at my workplace includes vegetarian and meat options and always 1 gluten free meal, for our colleague who is allergic to gluten. To arrange that is not difficult, it is thoughtful.

Last week i was kept up by Hindu's releasing fireworks to celebrate diwali. Three times a year the roads in our local area are blocked because of parades, 1 is a Muslim parade to celebrate the birthday of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), one is a Sikh parade to celebrate one of their festivals and the other parade is organised by the black community. There is an annual parade a little further away in the city centre every year too, it's organised by homosexuals. Each year these events occur, people are inconvenienced and we tolerate it, because it is important to someone else and we respect that - we don't consider it a barrier.

You and I clearly come from two very different worlds.
You do make very good points. However, you can't compare western society(especially western European countries and the U.S/Canada) who have been interacting and living with the outside world and people from different religions /cultures for over a century now with a homogenous country like China, Japan, Korea, Singapore, Hong-Kong etc.
Moreover, these countries don't necessarily have the type of political correctness we have here in the west, hence they tend to be more straightforward in their views and remarks about certain sensitive issues which might raise controversies here in the west, contrary to east Asia who has a different culture, history, traditions and way of doing things. So I don't think you should compare both societies, it's like comparing apples and oranges.

I even met a poor Afghanistani in Canada, he came because there are better opportunities.

but if it was his choice he said he would live in the gulf countries.
How does he think these opportunities in Canada came about?

Plus he can't say if he 'had a choice ', we all have choices in life, especially when it comes to emigrating to a foreign country thousands of miles away from your continent leaving the dozens of peaceful stable (in some cases even relatively wealthy) Muslim countries in the region to go a far way foreign alien land. That's definitely by choice I'm afraid. I'm sure there are also opportunities in KSA, Iran, Qatar, Turkey etc etc.
As I said it depends on your priorities and what what you want in life.

In life you have to go to places you do not like in order to get something in life. :lol:
Lol You do make a good point, at least you acknowledge you were not getting what you wanted in Pakistan which happens to be a Muslim country?
It's for this reason I said it depends on your priorities in life. Is it wealth, security and stability and a better life for your family (children) you are after?
Or is it more about focusing more on your religion, culture, values and way of life?
There are a few pious Muslims who will never leave their country for a country who doesn't have anything Islamic at all and whose values /way of life is totally different from what they know their holy book prescribes. To such people their religion /values /virtue is more important than wealth and other material things they can get from emigrating to a western country for a better life.
So it still depends on what everyone's priorities are and what they think is more important.
 
Last edited:
.

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Country Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom