Chinese student killed in bombings had followed her passion to Boston

[gambit]

you are free to believe whatever you want...you can twist as much u want u are welcome..but atleast you are not allowed to enforce your thoughts on others....mullah omer etc are actually opposing americans...they have nothing to do with pak.....our actual target is ttp..and our army knows what to do and when to take which action...you when said they are entering from pakistan you have proved that how much phd u rforget it dear...leave us alone with our problems we will handle with ourselves

We are not obligated to leave Pakistan alone. Our interests in Afghanistan burdened US to consider Pakistan's status: Friend or Foe.

There are two ways in which a state can fail to uphold its duty of securing its territories from being used by any party who are interested in a conflict:

- Incompetency
- Antipathy

Which is it for Pakistan?

 

[Dubious]

And what do you know of the ground situation- between the Pakistani narrative and American narrative which one should the world at large pick.

I do know something of COIN ops..here is the thing you too are posting your personal conjecture and analysis. So are Gambit and the others.

The difference is that my nation has never been attacked by proxies which are provided shelter on US soil, it has been repeatedly attacked by proxies who find shelter on Pakistani soil. I believe I qualified my bias beforehand. Basically what you are saying is that A) The Haqqani network is not present on Pakistani soil OR B) Even if it is then it is not Pakistan's obligation to rout them. Way to go..here is a thought I don't have a horse in this race..the US does and so do you..again it is capability that matters..right and wrong are quaint principles which the governments of the world care two hoots for.

We cannot take the terrorists out in Pakistan, nor can we stop them from infiltrating into Kashmir with 100% success but we can eradicate them once they are in our territory albeit at the cost of our jawans so we do...similarly you cannot push the US out of Af by force..even after their 2014 draw-down they are going to leave their spec-ops units back in Af and have already signed upon a mutual defense treaty. What your forces CAN do is shoot the drones down..how can you blame the US if your own forces have never shot a single one down? IF they had tried and failed then you could still shift your attention to the US, if they were say shooting down 7-8 drones hell even 2 drones out of the 10 that come in every few months you could still then say that OK we are doing all we can..now its time to continue that effort and mate it with a new paradigm- the international one where we show that we are against drone strikes and we are shooting them down so the US had better stop. But not a single measly drone shot- WHATEVER THE SECRET REASON FOR THAT MIGHT BE- IF YOU'RE OWN GOVERNMENT AND FORCES DON'T CARE ENOUGH TO STOP IT THEN WHY WILL THE US?

Anyway you're right this has gotten very OT some other thread ans some other time.

WHOSE WE? Plus stop painting EACH AND EVERY operation you know with the same brush...You just dragged a new entity into the who conversation ....KASHMIR...was that to provoke someone? It was VERY UN NECESSARY...your obsession with Kashmir is well observed in EVERY OTHER thread you visit....

We are not obligated to leave Pakistan alone. Our interests in Afghanistan burdened US to consider Pakistan's status: Friend or Foe.

There are two ways in which a state can fail to uphold its duty of securing its territories from being used by any party who are interested in a conflict:

- Incompetency
- Antipathy

Which is it for Pakistan?

@gambit at least you admit

 

[Dillinger]

WHOSE WE?

India, I gave an example- capability matters..India can make as much noise as it wants to about the insurgency in Kashmir but at the end of the day it will have to do what is required by itself...similarly Pakistan will have to do the same with drones..that's why I asked, do you want the world to sympathize with the innocents that die in Pakistan and declare that the US is "wrong" or do you want to STOP the drone strikes? IF you want to stop them then pressurize your government and authorities to shoot them down..Iran can do it so then so should Pakistan. Why can't Pakistan just TRY to fix the problem at least? Why do you even assume that the common American cares? DO you think they'll stop if you prove them to be on the wrong side of either morality or international law?

That's why I said that despite my bias towards Pakistan even I cannot agree to accepting the massive casualties that drones cause..BUT in my own opinion if Pakistan wants to stop all of this then it has to act NOW.

I already told you..as far as children and women dying are concerned one needs to be religion and region blind..but no amount of tears will help.

 

[Dubious]

India, I gave an example- capability matters..India can make as much noise as it wants to about the insurgency in Kashmir but at the end of the day it will have to do what is required by itself...similarly Pakistan will have to do the same with drones..that's why I asked, do you want the world to sympathize with the innocents that die in Pakistan and declare that the US is "wrong" or do you want to STOP the drone strikes? IF you want to stop them then pressurize your government and authorities to shoot them down..Iran can do it so then so should Pakistan. Why can't Pakistan just TRY to fix the problem at least? Why do you even assume that the common American cares? DO you think they'll stop if you prove them to be on the wrong side of either morality or international law?

That's why I said that despite my bias towards Pakistan even I cannot agree to massive casualties that drones cause..BUT in my own opinion if Pakistan wants to stop all of this then it has to act NOW.

I already told you..as far as children and women dying are concerned one needs to be religion and region blind..but no amount of tears will help.

@Dillinger stop stretching the thread un necessarily this whole talk has NOTHING TO DO with India...why are you bring un necessary topics? If you can not stick to the topic at hand.....open another thread, simple

 

[A1Kaid]

This thread needs to be closed, @Aeronaut @Oscar Enough about this subject.

 

[Dubious]

Despite wasting soo much time....my initial question still remains:

So all of you guys are in fav of killing people and justifying it? Instead of condemning it NO MATTER WHO KILLS?

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...owed-her-passion-boston-14.html#ixzz2RCpTYjBO

Listen to yourselves you are justifying killings of people be it by their govt OR Drones...WOW...like there is only two options and YOU MUST KILL....Just a matter of how?!

 

[Dillinger]

@Dillinger stop stretching the thread un necessarily this whole talk has NOTHING TO DO with India...why are you bring un necessary topics? If you can not stick to the topic at hand.....open another thread, simple

Holy lord I just gave an example..I'm not steering it towards India..All I am saying is that capability matters..the US projects its narrative far better than Pakistan does..you can either beat them at it or find another way...that's all.

 

[Armstrong]

First off, my deepest condolences to the families & countrymen of all the innocent civilians that were massacred by these vermin !

Secondly, whereas I wouldn't for a second condone Muslim Extremism in the least bit, I've lost some people I knew closely to it here in Pakistan ! And so I can understand that pain, the anger & the residual hate that it develops on those of us who are left on a very personal level. But I'd still like to put a few things in perspective :

Terrorist Attacks on U.S. Soil by Group, From 1980 to 2005, According to FBI Database

And these are what were characterized as a 'terrorist attack' by the FBI :

Source article : All Terrorists are Muslims...Except the 94% that Aren't | loonwatch.com

If I may go on a bit further & quote the available figures on Europe :

The Europol Report reads as : Islamist terrorism is still perceived as being the biggest threat worldwide, despite the fact that the EU only faced one Islamist terrorist attack in 2008. This bomb attack took place in the UK…Separatist terrorism remains the terrorism area which affects the EU most. This includes Basque separatist terrorism in Spain and France, and Corsican terrorism in France…Past contacts between ETA and the FARC illustrate the fact that also separatist terrorist organizations seek cooperation partners outside the EU on the basis of common interests. In the UK, dissident Irish republican groups, principally the RIRA and the CIRA, and other paramilitary groups may continue to engage in crime and violence.

Source Article : Europol Report: All Terrorists are Muslims...Except the 99.6% that Aren't | loonwatch.com

For the years 2009 & 2010 :

Source Article : Updated Europol Data: Less Than 1% of Terrorist Attacks by Muslims | Islamophobia Today eNewspaper

P.S - It appears that the original Europol Website has been moved or is under construction but in the Source Article quoted, just above, you can find a downloadable link to the Europol Report in PDF format - Just beneath the Consolidated Format.

Mate, @Chinese-Dragon : Bro, the Xinjiang thing has both an element of Muslim Extremism & Turkish Extremism to it ! For example in my country there are Muslim Extremists like the TTP, the LeJ, the SSP & the SSM ! But I wouldn't be able to call the Baluchistan Liberation Army or some of the militant wings of Political Parties in Karachi who are fighting each other or some of the militant activities of the Sindhi Nationalist parties as being Muslim Extremists just because they happen to be Muslims - They are fighting for their Ethnic & Linguistic agendas not for any notion of an Islamic State.

I believe some of that ethno-linguistic nationalism in the guise of a Pan-Turkic movement is more the evident in Xinjiang otherwise of all Muslim countries most of the Turkic ones would not be the most vocal about the issue.

I'd like your inputs - @Talon @Developereo

 

[Dubious]

Holy lord I just gave an example..I'm not steering it towards India..All I am saying is that capability matters..the US projects its narrative far better than Pakistan does..you can either beat them at it or find another way...that's all.

@Dillinger ou know very well bringing such topics in will start another set of debates on the same thread or are you unaware of it?

 

[OPINION]

@OPINION Oh yea then it is collateral damage ...anything happening in the West are INNOCENT LIVES....in other countries same innocent lives becomes "collateral damage" ....


I will NOT say the same were it your family members that became part of this "collateral damage" But if such thing happens...YOU on the other hand should not be allowed to call it devil as per your own words!

Who told you that people got killed in "collateral damage" are not innocent ??? But it's War ground For god sake ! they didn't attack them intentionally thats what we call collateral damage. When Islamist attack Purposefully on peaceful ground with islamic agenda to kill them it's not collateral damage , did you understand ??

 

[Dillinger]

@Dillinger ou know very well bringing such topics in will start another set of debates on the same thread or are you unaware of it?

And I also know very well that you can see that its an example, just that, not an opening of another debate..you've asked your question again and again and I've given my opinion on the possible answer.

Casualties in the US get more coverage and more sympathy because they can project their narrative better than you can.

The US gets away with its drone strikes because it can- that's where I used the example for capability.

Isn't that an answer enough...the world has never worked according to justice and morality..it works according to money and power..that doesn't mean that people will not use semantics to further propagate their discourse...so the US will always claim that its right and it will win at it as long as their opponent is not capable enough. You find something wrong in the above, am I saying that the US is right? I am saying that they just cannot be stopped by words or morality..stop them through actions and then prove them to be wrong..that's all.

 

[Armstrong]

And I also know very well that you can see that its an example, just that, not an opening of another debate..you've asked your question again and again and I've given my opinion on the possible answer.

Casualties in the US get more coverage and more sympathy because they can project their narrative better than you can.

The US gets away with its drone strikes because it can- that's where I used the example for capability.

Isn't that an answer enough...the world has never worked according to justice and morality..it works according to money and power..that doesn't mean that people will not use semantics to further propagate their discourse...so the US will always claim that its right and it will win at it as long as their opponent is not capable enough. You find something wrong in the above, am I saying that the US is right? I am saying that they just cannot be stopped by words or morality..stop them through actions and then prove them to be wrong..that's all.

@Talon - He might me a Banyna doing CA but hes also correct - If you can't sell your narrative it doesn't matter whether you are in the right because people would never have bought it !

This is exactly what India has done to Pakistan, Israel does to the Arabs, the States did to the Soviets & now to us & to a certain extent the Chinese & what South Korean did & still do to the North Koreans !

Our failure has been to recognize this glaring deficiency of ours & do something about it ! When the rest of us, some definitely more than others, try to reciprocate that - Our attempts range from being humorous to outright moronic tantrums !

Learn from thy enemy & then have @Dillinger emasculated when no one would believe him that it was you who did it !

 

[Pakchina]

Shes such a beauty. RIP, You will be remembered.

She will be remembered just like the two hundred killed in the Sichuan earthquake. Unfortunately the latter has received no media attention in the West. While several high ranking tributes have been held in the US, Canada, London Marathon and in all part of Europe, Australia etc for the three killed in the Boston bombings, there has been NO tribute in the West to the 200 persons including women and children killed in the Sichuan earthquake.

 

[Dillinger]

@Talon - He might me a Banyna doing CA but hes also correct - If you can't sell your narrative it doesn't matter whether you are in the right because people would never have bought it !

This is exactly what India has done to Pakistan, Israel does to the Arabs, the States did to the Soviets & now to us & to a certain extent the Chinese & what South Korean do to the North Koreans !

Our failure has been to recognize this glaring deficiency of ours & do something about it ! When the rest of us, some definitely more than others, try to reciprocate that - Our attempts range from humorous to outright moronic tantrums !

Learn from thy enemy & then have @Dillinger emasculated when no one would believe him that it was you who did it !

Bring it lard belly..this "baniya" loves a challenge.

Yaara you tell me..how does it matter who's right or wrong...can you name one instance in history where right or wrong was defined by the defeated that is if the defeated were even left alive to make such an attempt?

Why do you think I never say that Pakistan is "wrong" because I don't believe that it is..it is simply a nemesis and must be dealt with as such with all reasonable means..mere ya mere desh ke gussa hone se kya farak padta hai..righteous anger is good for "publicity and sympathy" on the international stage and is one of the less important tools of diplomacy...uske baad toh its all about what we can do and what we can't.

 

[Dubious]

@Talon - He might me a Banyna doing CA but hes also correct - If you can't sell your narrative it doesn't matter whether you are in the right because people would never have bought it !

This is exactly what India has done to Pakistan, Israel does to the Arabs, the States did to the Soviets & now to us & to a certain extent the Chinese & what South Korean did & still do to the North Koreans !

Our failure has been to recognize this glaring deficiency of ours & do something about it ! When the rest of us, some definitely more than others, try to reciprocate that - Our attempts range from being humorous to outright moronic tantrums !

Learn from thy enemy & then have @Dillinger emasculated when no one would believe him that it was you who did it !

@Armstrong go play with @Dillinger I have some more markers to make Good luck