China Unveils FC-31; Brief Analysis of Possible Buyer(s)

[Beast]

what ever makes you happy.
btw i don't think any company will collaborate with china in terms of defense. even the engines, they have to be replaced with the ws-20.

Yes, that is why WS-20 has been tested extensively. It will first be used on military plane before commercial for civilian use.

 

[RealNapster]

That is why localisation of Chinese weapon by Pakistan armed forces is always a priority. Even IF, you goes to war with China. Your local industries are still able to maintain and sustain your own make system. For example, HJ-8 ATGM

that's what i love about china. and specially Pakistani officials "responsible for procurement" .. who buy and localise/modify them as per our need and approach.

 

[MastanKhan]

don't take me wrong and seriously i don't Wan't it to happen what i am going to Assume.

but
what if a WAR started between Pakistan and China ??
we will have chinese jets, chinese tanks, chinese missiles, chines eveything.
just take an example of airforce. maybe in future it is Fc-31, j-11d, jf17, ..
And the enemy who knows limitation of your each and every weapons is a lethal enemy.

So don't you think there must be a combination in PAF ? two from china, two from west.
e.g, jf17, j11 from china... and typhoon/su35/tfx and f-16 from west. ?? @Imran Khan , @MastanKhan ,

so if you go with a war with india (U.S girlfriend) you can use chinese weapons. and if you are in war with china use western weapons.

Note:
please don't ask me silly questions that what make me think that there will be a war between Pakistan and china. it's a hypothetical scenario as i am on devil's side

Sir,

If you think that there might be a war with china----then it is better to stop existing as a nation because we would not have learnt in these many years how nations live and with whom they fight.

You are not being on the devils side---it is just senseless----.

Just because we are using Chinese weapons des not mean they are less potent.

I would rather lay my arms down than fight china---.

 

[RealNapster]

Sir,

If you think that there might be a war with china----then it is better to stop existing as a nation because we would not have learnt in these many years how nations live and with whom they fight.

You are not being on the devils side---it is just senseless----.

Just because we are using Chinese weapons des not mean they are less potent.

I would rather lay my arms down than fight china---.

those two words "what if" make you able to think out of the box. ham me se kis ne socha tha kay kise din Nepal or India ka b aamna saamna hoga ?? kia 3 sal pehly aapne socha tha kay Iran america se dosti karega or weapons lega ??

jab ham kehtay hay umooman aisa hota hay to uska matlb ye nahe hota kay har dafa aesa he hoga... kia pata choti panjwe dafa "wesa" ho jaaye ??
waqt badaltay dair nahe lagte. shayad aap jang na larna chaaho.. par indian ocien china ko keench laaye war kay lye ?? are you ready for that ??

and you would rather lay arms down than fight china as we lay down ourselv's to USA through SEETO CENTO ?? aaj tak gaalia datay hay khud ko kay q gaye American block ki taraf... kia ham wohe ghalti dubara to nahe dohraa rahay ??

 

[Sharpshooter12]

those two words "what if" make you able to think out of the box. ham me se kis ne socha tha kay kise din Nepal or India ka b aamna saamna hoga ?? kia 3 sal pehly aapne socha tha kay Iran america se dosti karega or weapons lega ??

jab ham kehtay hay umooman aisa hota hay to uska matlb ye nahe hota kay har dafa aesa he hoga... kia pata choti panjwe dafa "wesa" ho jaaye ??
waqt badaltay dair nahe lagte. shayad aap jang na larna chaaho.. par indian ocien china ko keench laaye war kay lye ?? are you ready for that ??

and you would rather lay arms down than fight china as we lay down ourselv's to USA through SEETO CENTO ?? aaj tak gaalia datay hay khud ko kay q gaye American block ki taraf... kia ham wohe ghalti dubara to nahe dohraa rahay ??

Your points are not completely wrong when taken into consideration. While I don't see any specific reason for which We and China can ever go to war, but our relations might not remain the same if the geo-political situation changes dramatically.

For example, if one day our eastern neighbor some how completely jeopardize its relations with US and the west and then look for a partner in the East and decide that they can work with China and Russia to balance the playing field, what will be the Chinese reaction. I think if they are wise enough, they will choose them over us.

Or if things really flare up in Sinkiang region, Chinese crack down on it and thousands die (Just a hypothetical situation) there will be reaction on Pakistani streets, the same old Muslim Ummah thing and some religious fanatics may find their way to the region, this has happened before but let's suppose this time its more intense, would Chinese take it lightly, no and if GOP does not act the relations might take a hit.

Of course none of these seems plausible right now but are they beyond the realm of reality, no, stranger things have happened in this world. US was training and equipping Afghan Mujahideen in the 80's and fighting many of them in 2000's. Japan got 2 of its cities nuked by US and now US is the partner it can trust for boosting its national security.

So while I really appreciate China as an all weather friend of Pakistan, I agree with you when you say we should not put all of our eggs in one basket. It will be wise to diversify our weapon acquisitions and not rely on a single partner completely. Let's not repeat the debacle of 60,70 and 80's.

 

[Imran Khan]

don't take me wrong and seriously i don't Wan't it to happen what i am going to Assume.

but
what if a WAR started between Pakistan and China ??
we will have chinese jets, chinese tanks, chinese missiles, chines eveything.
just take an example of airforce. maybe in future it is Fc-31, j-11d, jf17, ..
And the enemy who knows limitation of your each and every weapons is a lethal enemy.

So don't you think there must be a combination in PAF ? two from china, two from west.
e.g, jf17, j11 from china... and typhoon/su35/tfx and f-16 from west. ?? @Imran Khan , @MastanKhan ,

so if you go with a war with india (U.S girlfriend) you can use chinese weapons. and if you are in war with china use western weapons.

Note:
please don't ask me silly questions that what make me think that there will be a war between Pakistan and china. it's a hypothetical scenario as i am on devil's side

janab combination in future will not be possible its seems to me f-16 is last western fighter jet for PAF .

 

[django]

Well, we are in the process of helping our S.Korean friends with their TF-X fighter program, hopefully we will help them finish this great fighter. We make the best engines in the world(at par with the U.S if not better) not like Russia's smoky stuffs it calls engines.lol So i'm sure we will help S.Korea make their fighter more powerful/supersonic and one of the most potent fighter jets in Asia and even the world, since the U.S is reluctant to go out of its way to help them, we by contrast are a pragmatic lot, so we will help Seoul.

Seoul's KF-X fighter jet mulling European offer - UPI.com

South Korea’s New Fighter Jet: Brought to You by Airbus? | The Diplomat

BAE Systems secures $1bn contract to upgrade South Korean fighter jets | Business | The Guardian

Win-Win.

You make the best engines in the world, perhaps better than the US , could you elaborate sir.

 

[Imran Khan]

Would love to see that flying over Islamabad o23

sasta tareeka bataoon ? invite china on 23 march

 

[Zibago]

sasta tareeka bataoon ? invite china on 23 march

Wo phir sirf j10 lay kar he aen gay

 

[MastanKhan]

those two words "what if" make you able to think out of the box. ham me se kis ne socha tha kay kise din Nepal or India ka b aamna saamna hoga ?? kia 3 sal pehly aapne socha tha kay Iran america se dosti karega or weapons lega ??

jab ham kehtay hay umooman aisa hota hay to uska matlb ye nahe hota kay har dafa aesa he hoga... kia pata choti panjwe dafa "wesa" ho jaaye ??
waqt badaltay dair nahe lagte. shayad aap jang na larna chaaho.. par indian ocien china ko keench laaye war kay lye ?? are you ready for that ??

and you would rather lay arms down than fight china as we lay down ourselv's to USA through SEETO CENTO ?? aaj tak gaalia datay hay khud ko kay q gaye American block ki taraf... kia ham wohe ghalti dubara to nahe dohraa rahay ??

Sir,

Please speak English and respect this forum----.

 

[mike2000 is back]

You make the best engines in the world, perhaps better than the US , could you elaborate sir.

Check Rolls royce and EJ200 engines yourself(google is there for such things). Don't have much time to go in details here and derail the topic at hand.

 

[Quwa]

I agree with @Beast. Pakistan's principal technological partner will be China for the foreseeable future, if not for political reasons, then definitely financial. I understand people are really looking forward to the TFX, but that is a very high risk avenue considering the reality that it is in the early stages of development; cost will be a serious factor as well.

There is no doubting that the J-31 has its drawbacks, but credit to China for having it deep in the development cycle, these issues can be dealt with over the next decade. That said, I do NOT think Pakistan will be a developmental partner, we don't have the funds for it. It is more likely we'll buy FC-31s off the shelf in batches, and I think we will tailor them for a strike oriented role, thereby replacing the Mirage ROSE.

 

[Jlaw]

china may have aesa radars and destroyers, but its not to western standards (no offense)
also the c919 was designed with help from bombardier.

The engine of c919 is from GE.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

China is developing its own high technology and days of rely on access of foreign technology is over. If not how can our huge AEW/AWACS fleet and AESA destroyer are build up? Even when comes to advance airframe technology, we have come together shoulder to shoulder with US. I think you shall have know the largest 3D printing aircraft component are made in China. The newest C919 are also latest proof of China ever improving aviation technology.

WS-13 might make its debut next year. It is entering it final stage of certification and currently tested on a JF-17 pt.

The WS-13 is already used on the FC-31, just read the Chinese official statement.

BTW, I don't understand why some Pakistani members wanna the cooperation with South Korea, since this country is basically a toddler when it comes to the aviation industry.

They can't even build a training jet by themselves.

China has made huge strides in military technology

Can build in huge numbers very quickly

And the FC31 looks a great project.

But make no mistake FC31 will not have the high advanced cock pit sensor fusion aesa radar and ew suites of the F35 or indeed the lethal weapons mix of the usa.

Engine powerplant wise the chinease do not have an indengious engine as yet and both usa europe and russia are far ahead.

overall i would suggest that a Rafale F3 and FC31 WILL BE ON PAR just about but the french fighter wins in overall range payload and cockpit technology

BUT the FC31 wins in better RCS and stealth

Are you kidding me?

China has already built over 500 WS-10 turbofan engines over the last decade.

Now many new brand of jet engines are ready to fly or under the development.

Your knowledge about China's jet engine is so 1990s.

 

[Taygibay]

Off-topic answers :

Well, we are in the process of helping our S.Korean friends with their TF-X fighter program, hopefully we will help them finish this great fighter. We make the best engines in the world(at par with the U.S if not better) not like Russia's smoky stuffs it calls engines.lol So i'm sure we will help S.Korea make their fighter more powerful/supersonic and one of the most potent fighter jets in Asia and even the world, since the U.S is reluctant to go out of its way to help them, we by contrast are a pragmatic lot, so we will help Seoul.

Seoul's KF-X fighter jet mulling European offer - UPI.com

South Korea’s New Fighter Jet: Brought to You by Airbus? | The Diplomat

BAE Systems secures $1bn contract to upgrade South Korean fighter jets | Business | The Guardian

Win-Win.

That's actually a pure loss for the UK, sadly, Mikey.
The BAe that won the Korean Falcon upgrade is the US branch created around the F-35 partnership issues.
The BAe that lost the UAE is the Brit one though.
Then again, that must be mitigated twice. It's in fact EADS that lost in the beach of the gulf. BAe was only in
charge due to export arrangements between partners but all Cassidian Eurofighter plants Europe-wide will be
affected not just the British ones.
The second good point relates to your early ( with BlueMarlin ) and latest discussions. If I was SOKO, it'd build
around the EJ 2000 without an after thought. Mature product, just about best part of the EF, autonomous sour-
cing confirmed.
But I'd run a separate competition to select a design bureau to help on the rest.

But make no mistake FC31 will not have the high advanced cock pit sensor fusion aesa radar and ew suites of the F35 or indeed the lethal weapons mix of the usa.

Engine powerplant wise the chinease do not have an indengious engine as yet and both usa europe and russia are far ahead.

That's mostly correct although Beast is also entitled to say that many viewpoints on China's electronics are dated.
This said, despite BeiDou and other markers of success, one is still missing. When Chinese designed & produced
electronics are the most bought in the West in value, I'll change my tune … or when we get results published for real
and not just more or less streaky, grainy photos from a distance similar to good auto magazines exclusives or 1970's
paparazzi shots. Like, if your cameras are cheap, why would I trust your optronics to be any good?

The only question being : how long until China closes the gap and on that? It may well surprise everyone, who knows?
Watch them go, watch them closely!

China is looking for foreign Partners to invest in J-31..... Pakistan should go for it...

On the sole condition that Pakistan gets more advanced job/s than it did on the Thunder. That is a prerequisite
to useful and reasonably quick national development of the industry.
And seeing how the F-31's design is mostly cleared by now, that's unlikely!
Sorry mate!

Mayyyyybe if it got Pakistan a plant on the mainline so that say all vertical tail fins and/or air intakes ever made
for all FC-31s were made here. That could be an reasonable offset.

@RealNapster
Agreed to your post #26 if not those following.
It's like those choice questions at exams :

How do you insure autonomy in war options?

A- Build everything yourself. USA and France, to a lesser degree Russia, the UK or further down China.
B- Buy from a preferred source. With the caveat you raised of technological infeudation and consequently
political submission to some degree and helplessness if the alliance changes. Most countries.
C- Buy from everyone with great care. Rarer cases that may or may not include local mil industry develop
-ment so South Africa & Indonesia in the first case and GCC states for examples of the second.
D- Buy nothing and smoke a fat one, fingers crossed! Iceland, Liechtenstein and the total hero of the world
Costa Rica as well as Jamaïca mostly for the middle part.

That's it! E- All of the above is not a realistic option.

Off-topic answers closed.

There will be a market for this dragon. It's a clean variation on the Lighting II with the twin engines solving
the fat bodied bug. I'd really like to see it fly for real.
The problem is not electronics, plans can be stolen, they were before even between supposed friends
and allies. And Chinese engineers are not idle either.
If I was to throw a doubt about exports, it would be on international relations. In it's attempt to grow as fast as
it can, China has angered and maybe federated neighbors against it. Vietnam and Taïwan and others will not
buy Beijing's jetfighters anytime soon!
There are markets available elsewhere but in the long run, it may be wise to slack down on the whole scaring
everyone away from your shop thing.


Have fun good people. Later, Tay.