China: Let's change the conversation

[Genesis]

Like the title says let's change the conversation. Our need to constantly defend ourselves in international arenas shows that we either have a guilty conscious or we are doing something wrong. Doesn't really matter if it is true or not, the fact of the matter is we look it.

So, the best way to change this situation isn't so much as to change our demands, but alter it to make it look different.


In the interest of time we have a couple of goals. Resources around the SCS, fishing rights, right to build and use as base, and right to police the region.


Since we would eventually start getting investments from abroad when we develop these seas anyways, what does it matter who it's from. Instead of doing it the hard way, make a co-development deal, and "regionalize" these islands as property of the region.

A set of rules for fishing, a joint resource development from all countries within the ASEAN to help push it through by offering resources to those that would otherwise not have had any stake in it.


Instead of the right to police, give same Beidou units to ASEAN fishermen, so that they can also ask for help from our coast guards and hospital ships, which in effect would make us the protector of the SCS and thus policing in all but name.

Negotiate for a right for all ASEAN countries to contribute to anti piracy and search and rescue, make others pay or we pay for the building of bases that are to be used by all ASEAN, but in effect, we are the biggest navy now, and a far bigger one in the future, both in terms of size and quality.

Since all bases would have upkeep, I doubt any nation sans China wants to pay for it year after year.


We can even invite Americans in, as long as they extend the same to us. We have much more to gain by working closely with them, and force them into a corner. They false words today will force them into opening up their door.

We are far less advanced, and are far less developed as a nation. In a game of chicken, the dude with less to lose is always the winner.


To break the TPP, American military dominance and other American containment strategy, the best way to me is to do what they want. Their strategy revolves around us not doing that, in fact we have far more to gain if we do do what they want.

One step back two step forward.

 

[Zero_wing]

Wow if that was all base in true good intentions sure why not but thats all imperialism so no thanks

 

[Jlaw]

Like the title says let's change the conversation. Our need to constantly defend ourselves in international arenas shows that we either have a guilty conscious or we are doing something wrong. Doesn't really matter if it is true or not, the fact of the matter is we look it.

So, the best way to change this situation isn't so much as to change our demands, but alter it to make it look different.


In the interest of time we have a couple of goals. Resources around the SCS, fishing rights, right to build and use as base, and right to police the region.


Since we would eventually start getting investments from abroad when we develop these seas anyways, what does it matter who it's from. Instead of doing it the hard way, make a co-development deal, and "regionalize" these islands as property of the region.

A set of rules for fishing, a joint resource development from all countries within the ASEAN to help push it through by offering resources to those that would otherwise not have had any stake in it.


Instead of the right to police, give same Beidou units to ASEAN fishermen, so that they can also ask for help from our coast guards and hospital ships, which in effect would make us the protector of the SCS and thus policing in all but name.

Negotiate for a right for all ASEAN countries to contribute to anti piracy and search and rescue, make others pay or we pay for the building of bases that are to be used by all ASEAN, but in effect, we are the biggest navy now, and a far bigger one in the future, both in terms of size and quality.

Since all bases would have upkeep, I doubt any nation sans China wants to pay for it year after year.


We can even invite Americans in, as long as they extend the same to us. We have much more to gain by working closely with them, and force them into a corner. They false words today will force them into opening up their door.

We are far less advanced, and are far less developed as a nation. In a game of chicken, the dude with less to lose is always the winner.


To break the TPP, American military dominance and other American containment strategy, the best way to me is to do what they want. Their strategy revolves around us not doing that, in fact we have far more to gain if we do do what they want.

One step back two step forward.

I would just troll like Viets.

Plus Chinese leadership does not have a good international PR department.

Plus some Chinese cannot tell the difference if someone is trolling or genuine because most forums are in English.

 

[Hiptullha]

Wow if that was all base in true good intentions sure why not but thats all imperialism so no thanks

Most of the developments around you are all incentive-based. Most schools and hospitals aren't built because people want to do the right thing and are doing it out of the kindness of their heart. If this will bring development and a positive change to China and it's neighbours, it doesn't matter about the intentions.

 

[Zero_wing]

Wow that must work for you and India no thanks

 

[Aepsilons]

Wow if that was all base in true good intentions sure why not but thats all imperialism so no thanks

In other words a domicile policy of hegemony.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

Like the title says let's change the conversation. Our need to constantly defend ourselves in international arenas shows that we either have a guilty conscious or we are doing something wrong. Doesn't really matter if it is true or not, the fact of the matter is we look it.

So, the best way to change this situation isn't so much as to change our demands, but alter it to make it look different.


In the interest of time we have a couple of goals. Resources around the SCS, fishing rights, right to build and use as base, and right to police the region.


Since we would eventually start getting investments from abroad when we develop these seas anyways, what does it matter who it's from. Instead of doing it the hard way, make a co-development deal, and "regionalize" these islands as property of the region.

A set of rules for fishing, a joint resource development from all countries within the ASEAN to help push it through by offering resources to those that would otherwise not have had any stake in it.


Instead of the right to police, give same Beidou units to ASEAN fishermen, so that they can also ask for help from our coast guards and hospital ships, which in effect would make us the protector of the SCS and thus policing in all but name.

Negotiate for a right for all ASEAN countries to contribute to anti piracy and search and rescue, make others pay or we pay for the building of bases that are to be used by all ASEAN, but in effect, we are the biggest navy now, and a far bigger one in the future, both in terms of size and quality.

Since all bases would have upkeep, I doubt any nation sans China wants to pay for it year after year.


We can even invite Americans in, as long as they extend the same to us. We have much more to gain by working closely with them, and force them into a corner. They false words today will force them into opening up their door.

We are far less advanced, and are far less developed as a nation. In a game of chicken, the dude with less to lose is always the winner.


To break the TPP, American military dominance and other American containment strategy, the best way to me is to do what they want. Their strategy revolves around us not doing that, in fact we have far more to gain if we do do what they want.

One step back two step forward.

Bravo. The SCS question has overlooked the key three words: cost benefit analysis. What does it matter if there is $50bn worth of gas in the SCS, if it takes tens of billions of dollars to secure it? Synergy can be produced when all parties are given a win, and this will help China economically, diplomatically, and militarily (it will free resources to be deployed elsewhere). Let's see if the CCP pursues this wise advice.

 

[Genesis]

Bravo. The SCS question has overlooked the key three words: cost benefit analysis. What does it matter if there is $50bn worth of gas in the SCS, if it takes tens of billions of dollars to secure it? Synergy can be produced when all parties are given a win, and this will help China economically, diplomatically, and militarily (it will free resources to be deployed elsewhere). Let's see if the CCP pursues this wise advice.

There are signs, I'm not sure China would do what I said, in fact it's just a very rough idea. But all signs point to a compromise.

The strategy right now is to get as many islands as possible not to start a war, but be in a better position when negotiations start. China isn't putting off arbitration because we don't want it, but we don't want it RIGHT NOW. All signs points to a restructuring of all arm forces and economy by 2020 more or less, we would be in far better position and not come from a position of uncertainty.

Vietnam is playing this smart by getting leverage, but not going too far, Philippines less so, they are cutting off some roads, but it's starting to look like a softening of the stance, and the Filipinos may have realized something about it's actual situation, and are no longer as vocal.

Indonesia is not even recognizing a dispute while Malaysia can take it or leave it.


To say SCS is a powder keg is the least accurate words ever, the difference between countries, whether officially recognized or not, is huge, so while in public it seems intense, in private, where it really matters, it looks at least to me, a very controlled affair.

Even the oil rig, with ramming and everything there was no spark, if either of us wanted war, just a spit would do, but the fact that there is restraint, even if someone misfires a round, I doubt it would result in much.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

There are signs, I'm not sure China would do what I said, in fact it's just a very rough idea. But all signs point to a compromise.

The strategy right now is to get as many islands as possible not to start a war, but be in a better position when negotiations start. China isn't putting off arbitration because we don't want it, but we don't want it RIGHT NOW. All signs points to a restructuring of all arm forces and economy by 2020 more or less, we would be in far better position and not come from a position of uncertainty.

Vietnam is playing this smart by getting leverage, but not going too far, Philippines less so, they are cutting off some roads, but it's starting to look like a softening of the stance, and the Filipinos may have realized something about it's actual situation, and are no longer as vocal.

Indonesia is not even recognizing a dispute while Malaysia can take it or leave it.


To say SCS is a powder keg is the least accurate words ever, the difference between countries, whether officially recognized or not, is huge, so while in public it seems intense, in private, where it really matters, it looks at least to me, a very controlled affair.

Even the oil rig, with ramming and everything there was no spark, if either of us wanted war, just a spit would do, but the fact that there is restraint, even if someone misfires a round, I doubt it would result in much.

I agree with you as far as the political leadership is concerned, but sometimes the population takes matters into its own hands. While the Vietnamese and Chinese leaderships may have a quiet understanding, riots in the streets could force the matter to take an ugly turn. That's why it's better to openly resolve this sooner, rather than later, even if that doesn't maximize China's take. I'm not sure China has until the 2020s, unless China locks in the status quo--taking additional islands and sending more oil rigs may push the issue beyond the point of no return.

 

[Genesis]

I agree with you as far as the political leadership is concerned, but sometimes the population takes matters into its own hands. While the Vietnamese and Chinese leaderships may have a quiet understanding, riots in the streets could force the matter to take an ugly turn. That's why it's better to openly resolve this sooner, rather than later, even if that doesn't maximize China's take. I'm not sure China has until the 2020s, unless China locks in the status quo--taking additional islands and sending more oil rigs may push the issue beyond the point of no return.

After heads cool down, I doubt anyoen would want war, besides, it's far easier to convince people not to war than to war.

riots in the streets are what they are, mindless mobs that will cool down and think once they go home.

I'm not saying China needs to maximize take, even my first post really means sharing, but the situation on the ground is this, China needs a win, and the US needs a win. Somebody needs to lose, I'm sure you know who China will absolutely never bend to, and who China would "concede" given the circumstances. Notice I only drew up plans for one Sea.

There is no point of no return, that point is Nuclear war, and nobody will go even close to that.


And yea, we do have until forever to deal with this, our coast guard is getting so strong that it far over powers any ASEAN navy, this is what we need to prolong this, strength without fists. Also, if China doesn't make the first move, who would be stupid enough to make it.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

After heads cool down, I doubt anyoen would want war, besides, it's far easier to convince people not to war than to war.

riots in the streets are what they are, mindless mobs that will cool down and think once they go home.

I'm not saying China needs to maximize take, even my first post really means sharing, but the situation on the ground is this, China needs a win, and the US needs a win. Somebody needs to lose, I'm sure you know who China will absolutely never bend to, and who China would "concede" given the circumstances. Notice I only drew up plans for one Sea.

There is no point of no return, that point is Nuclear war, and nobody will go even close to that.


And yea, we do have until forever to deal with this, our coast guard is getting so strong that it far over powers any ASEAN navy, this is what we need to prolong this, strength without fists. Also, if China doesn't make the first move, who would be stupid enough to make it.

I see the logic in what you're saying, but even if the US and China reach our own understanding about spheres of influence, I'm quite certain that other Asian countries may have other ideas. In an era where military technology profilerates quite easily, regional hegemony is difficult against determined enemies. Wars today are asymmetrical, and just as China's strategy against the US has been to embrace anti-access/area denial weapons as an inexpensive alternative to a direct challenge, China's neighbors may someday employ the same tactic against China. In a sense, a navy is an expensive luxury, so China's dominance of the SCS through its navy may not be as complete as its dominance of the Asian continent.

I'm not certain that anyone, even the US, can permanently hold the SCS if the surrounding countries are hostile. That's why China's "first move" strategy may provide it with territorial gains in the short term, but cause it to lose control in the long term. Better to "win" economically, which is sustainable, than win militarily, which is not (not for Britain, not for the USSR, not for the US, not for China).

 

[Genesis]

I see the logic in what you're saying, but even if the US and China reach our own understanding about spheres of influence, I'm quite certain that other Asian countries may have other ideas. In an era where military technology profilerates quite easily, regional hegemony is difficult against determined enemies. Wars today are asymmetrical, and just as China's strategy against the US has been to embrace anti-access/area denial weapons as an inexpensive alternative to a direct challenge, China's neighbors may someday employ the same tactic against China. In a sense, a navy is an expensive luxury, so China's dominance of the SCS through its navy may not be as complete as its dominance of the Asian continent.

I'm not certain that anyone, even the US, can permanently hold the SCS if the surrounding countries are hostile. That's why China's "first move" strategy may provide it with territorial gains in the short term, but cause it to lose control in the long term. Better to "win" economically, which is sustainable, than win militarily, which is not (not for Britain, not for the USSR, not for the US, not for China).

I thought of a couple ways of responding, but I deleted them all. I will say this, foreplay is important, you don't just go to the climax.

Military will be climbing down the fire escape rather than the kiss at the door.

The art of wooing someone really comes down to one thing, what does the other person want. ASEAN is a younger girl, she likes complements and paltry gifts, and ultimately not that difficult. US is the sophisticated career woman, she knows what she wants and what she deserves and she intends to get it. A dinner at Red Lobster is just not going to cut it with her.

Right now Philippines is the girl that just realized she's been duped and wants to get back together with her ex, while Vietnam is testing the waters to see what else is out there.

The rest of ASEAN wants purses and dinners to get them to roll around with her friend's significant other.

Relax, China is the eligible bachelor and all the ladies wants a piece, we may come off as a jerk, but they know they like it rough.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

I thought of a couple ways of responding, but I deleted them all. I will say this, foreplay is important, you don't just go to the climax.

Military will be climbing down the fire escape rather than the kiss at the door.

The art of wooing someone really comes down to one thing, what does the other person want. ASEAN is a younger girl, she likes complements and paltry gifts, and ultimately not that difficult. US is the sophisticated career woman, she knows what she wants and what she deserves and she intends to get it. A dinner at Red Lobster is just not going to cut it with her.

Right now Philippines is the girl that just realized she's been duped and wants to get back together with her ex, while Vietnam is testing the waters to see what else is out there.

The rest of ASEAN wants purses and dinners to get them to roll around with her friend's significant other.

Relax, China is the eligible bachelor and all the ladies wants a piece, we may come off as a jerk, but they know they like it rough.

Nice analogy. It has the ring of truth in it.

 

[Aepsilons]

There are signs, I'm not sure China would do what I said, in fact it's just a very rough idea. But all signs point to a compromise.

The strategy right now is to get as many islands as possible not to start a war, but be in a better position when negotiations start. China isn't putting off arbitration because we don't want it, but we don't want it RIGHT NOW. All signs points to a restructuring of all arm forces and economy by 2020 more or less, we would be in far better position and not come from a position of uncertainty.

Vietnam is playing this smart by getting leverage, but not going too far, Philippines less so, they are cutting off some roads, but it's starting to look like a softening of the stance, and the Filipinos may have realized something about it's actual situation, and are no longer as vocal.

Indonesia is not even recognizing a dispute while Malaysia can take it or leave it.


To say SCS is a powder keg is the least accurate words ever, the difference between countries, whether officially recognized or not, is huge, so while in public it seems intense, in private, where it really matters, it looks at least to me, a very controlled affair.

Even the oil rig, with ramming and everything there was no spark, if either of us wanted war, just a spit would do, but the fact that there is restraint, even if someone misfires a round, I doubt it would result in much.

You forget to take into consideration, that ASEAN isn't only "seeing" China. They're also dating Japan, United States, Russia, India....you know trying the flavors.

I couldn't help but laugh on your reference to the US as a career woman.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Like the title says let's change the conversation. Our need to constantly defend ourselves in international arenas shows that we either have a guilty conscious or we are doing something wrong. Doesn't really matter if it is true or not, the fact of the matter is we look it.

So, the best way to change this situation isn't so much as to change our demands, but alter it to make it look different.


In the interest of time we have a couple of goals. Resources around the SCS, fishing rights, right to build and use as base, and right to police the region.


Since we would eventually start getting investments from abroad when we develop these seas anyways, what does it matter who it's from. Instead of doing it the hard way, make a co-development deal, and "regionalize" these islands as property of the region.

A set of rules for fishing, a joint resource development from all countries within the ASEAN to help push it through by offering resources to those that would otherwise not have had any stake in it.


Instead of the right to police, give same Beidou units to ASEAN fishermen, so that they can also ask for help from our coast guards and hospital ships, which in effect would make us the protector of the SCS and thus policing in all but name.

Negotiate for a right for all ASEAN countries to contribute to anti piracy and search and rescue, make others pay or we pay for the building of bases that are to be used by all ASEAN, but in effect, we are the biggest navy now, and a far bigger one in the future, both in terms of size and quality.

Since all bases would have upkeep, I doubt any nation sans China wants to pay for it year after year.


We can even invite Americans in, as long as they extend the same to us. We have much more to gain by working closely with them, and force them into a corner. They false words today will force them into opening up their door.

We are far less advanced, and are far less developed as a nation. In a game of chicken, the dude with less to lose is always the winner.


To break the TPP, American military dominance and other American containment strategy, the best way to me is to do what they want. Their strategy revolves around us not doing that, in fact we have far more to gain if we do do what they want.

One step back two step forward.

Change the Paradigm.

Do what they least expect.

Good ideas. We're in this for the long game.