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China: Doing it all yourself has its drawbacks

Yeti

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When, in January 2011, China publicised the first test flight of the stealth fighter it is developing, the fact that the J-20 was advanced enough to get off the ground surprised many in the aviation world.

Since then, the Chengdu-made aircraft has had more practice. According to Chinese state media the first prototype completed its 60th test flight late last year and the second of four prototypes started test flights this year.

In addition, military experts in China say the country is developing a second lighter-weight stealth fighter, the J-60.

Without doubt, these projects are powerful symbols of China’s emerging military might.

“It puts China in the company of very few nations that have the wealth and the determination to develop such a programme,” says Tim Huxley, head of the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) in Asia.

The only potential rivals for the J-20 are the Lockheed Martin-produced F-22 Raptor and a stealth fighter under joint development by Russia and India.

But, while the January 2011 surprise showed the risk of underestimating China’s military development programmes, experts now say they should not be overestimated either.

The Pentagon has said it expects the J-20 to be operational no sooner than 2018 – in line with an estimate given by the Chinese deputy air force chief in 2009.

Tai Ming Cheung, an expert on the Chinese military’s technological development at the University of California in San Diego, says: “Whether the Pentagon’s estimate that the J-20 will go into service by 2018 is accurate is anyone’s guess, but my sense is that is wildly optimistic.”

Pointing to the gap of more than a decade between the first flight of the US F-22 fighter and its coming into service, he argues the J-20 will have at least a decade of testing and evaluation before it is ready for production.

“Finding the right engines remains a major obstacle. The [domestically made] WS-10 is still plagued by problems, especially of high quality manufacturing, and there appears to be no quick fix in sight,” he says. “The J-20 is a leading priority in the 12th Five Year defence development plan, so will require plenty of funding and high leadership attention.”

Industry sources agree that engine development remains the soft spot in the Chinese military air power.

An executive at a western aerospace company says: “In missile and satellite technology, China has managed greatly to narrow the gap with the US. But aircraft engines are an area where, despite decades of reverse engineering of licensed technology, they are still far behind.”

Avic, the state-owned aerospace conglomerate, plans to invest Rmb10bn ($1.6bn) over the next five years in the development of the high-end turbofan engines needed in an aircraft of the J-20 type. Meanwhile, the People’s Liberation Army Air Force remains dependent on Russian and Ukrainian supplies.

The J-10 and J-11, China’s fourth-generation fighters, are powered by Russian Salyut AL-31 FN engines.

In July 2011, Beijing ordered another 123 of those engines, bringing total orders of this engine model since 2001 to more than 1,000.

Beijing this year requested 48 Sukhoi Su-35 fighters from Russia, a deal still being delayed because of Moscow’s concerns that China could copy its technology.

But the request could reflect China’s desire to insure itself against the risk of relying only on domestic development.

But, despite the challenges, China’s growing air power has already thrown its large shadow ahead.

James Hardy, Asia-Pacific editor at IHS Jane’s Defence Weekly, says: “China’s military modernisation over the past decade and its more assertive posture, for example in the South China Sea since 2008, has driven south-east Asian countries such as the Philippines to step up fighter procurement.


“US allies in the region, such as, Japan, South Korea, Singapore and Australia are buying – or thinking of buying – F-35s to maintain interoperability with US forces and stay at the cutting edge of combat aircraft technology.”



China: Doing it all yourself has its drawbacks - FT.com
 
“Finding the right engines remains a major obstacle. The [domestically made] WS-10 is still plagued by problems, especially of high quality manufacturing, and there appears to be no quick fix in sight,”


China wanted the SU-35 for it's 117S engine which has increased thrust a new high and low pressure turbines as well a new digital control system, they are far superior to the WS-10. Irbis-E radar is also something of interest to the Chinese but Russia wont share the technology unless China signs a watertight contract which so far they are refusing to do so.
 
“Finding the right engines remains a major obstacle. The [domestically made] WS-10 is still plagued by problems, especially of high quality manufacturing, and there appears to be no quick fix in sight,”


China wanted the SU-35 for it's 117S engine which has increased thrust a new high and low pressure turbines as well a new digital control system, they are far superior to the WS-10. Irbis-E radar is also something of interest to the Chinese but Russia wont share the technology unless China signs a watertight contract which so far they are refusing to do so.
Chinese reverse engineer everything...so Russian are skeptical and don't trust Chinese.....They will also keep in mind that if J-20 becomes ready fr export, it will be competition for PAK-FA.(If they are to be exported).
 
Chinese reverse engineer everything...so Russian are skeptical and don't trust Chinese.....They will also keep in mind that if J-20 becomes ready fr export, it will be competition for PAK-FA.(If they are to be exported).


China will use any tactic to get their hands on military secrets they have shown this in the past, it has helped them but also it means they have a trust deficit with other countries.


BBC News - US spy for China Noshir Gowadia jailed for 32 years
 
Götterdämmerung;3153954 said:
The US and USSR didn't even bother with contracts. They just looted our technologies, patents and scientists. You dared to say no? The gulag in Siberia or the gallow in Nurmberg were compelling enough.


To the victor belong the spoils your country lost the war and the rest is history but this is not 1940's anymore. The reason why Russia does not share it's most advance technologies with China is because of trust pure and simple but with India it does not have this concern.
 
To the victor belong the spoils your country lost the war and the rest is history but this is not 1940's anymore. The reason why Russia does not share it's most advance technologies with China is because of trust pure and simple but with India it does not have this concern.
Because Russia knows that India does not have the capability to even understand how to copy it let alone produce working copy...
 
Yes, it has drawback, but it also has its advantage. Even china want to trust Russia completely, but can Russia can be trusted completely? USA will give china their advanced weapon to china? Maybe, If we as his dog, or follow him completely. even now they block the access to their advanced technology!!Trust india? Kidding, Could india forget 1962 completely?
As a country, you can't do it everything yourself, but as a big country, especially a big country contained by the only superpower in the world, at least, the key things you should do it yourself, especially in defence.
I know many key things in india depend on alien countries, Russia, Israel, USA, France, Sweden, especially in defence!
In defence, the key things should be done by yourself, India know it, but can't change their status quo!!
Anything have their advantages and disadvantages, but If the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, we should do it. And something that we must do, so we should do, it doesn't need to calculate the cost!!

Sure :lol: thats why we build the Sukhoi MKI using Indian materials from start to finish in our own country but we do not steal or clone like the Chinese we have standards.
Indian materials? Which part of Sukhoi? Under the license, Russia give your key components and material, then you assemble it, it is nothing hard!! And, after more than 10 years, how much do you learn from it? You even can't finish LCA project, after more than 30 years, you have to turn to alien countries for help, So that's your standard, beside talk big, what can you do? Talk bigger!! I have heard that you official want to develop LCA III, the stealth one, bigger joke.
as a normal people, many like talking big, it is not a big thing, but If the person in charge of the project like talking big and then bigger, and can't reach their target and schedule, it is big thing.

To the victor belong the spoils your country lost the war and the rest is history but this is not 1940's anymore. The reason why Russia does not share it's most advance technologies with China is because of trust pure and simple but with India it does not have this concern.
Seems, Russia share their most advanced technologies with you? If it is true, why they don't share the technology of Submarine, Rocket, Missile, Fighter, Space station with you? Why Russia don't let you modified the Carrier with the sharing technology, but instead of ripping you off? When I think of these, I have to admire Russia, they are smart, Ripping indian off, then using indian money to practice their technicist and renew rust and long unused equipment. After "sharing" technology more than 30 years, you still can't finished basic LCA, Arjun!!
Yes, you don't need concern this in peace time, but in war time, even you concern on it, you have no time to solve it, rival will not give you time!
 

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