Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[Beast]

I think the J-10 entered production in mid-2002, perhaps early 2003.

Here's a rather old post dating back to 2001 from the Key Publishing forum regarding the AL-31FN.

J-10A to enter mass production? [Archive] - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums

You posted in the thread btw.

I know Kanwa isn't official news. But they actually got it right. My point is that there were at least rumors regarding the engine being used for the original J-10 before production started. In my opinion, the Russian defense industry has never been known for their discretion. If the Russians were providing the engines for the J-20 program, some insider would have said something by now.

Absolutely agree! Somebody just living in their fantasy that J-20 a highly important project will have any Russian involvement.

 

[BoQ77]

The J-20 is no longer in its early stages of development. If rumors are correct, production begins next year. I find it very hard to believe that Salyut will remain silent about the fact that they are providing next-gen engines for the production J-20 beginning next year. On their website, they announce tests and milestones concerning the AL-31FN Series 3. But no mention for their own participation in China's highest profile aircraft program?

Maybe the engines they provided aren't next-gen engines at all.
It's logical.
Btw, there's no official statement from China about production of J-20 next year. Why Russian could make those for China?

Similar to J-31, Russian claimed that Chinese J-31 with RD-93 engines could defeat F-35

RD-93 engines made in Russia will power the Chinese J-31 fifth generation fighters, Sergei Kornev an official from the Russian Rosoboronexport said. He mentioned that there is a solution to the problem of China’s reverse engineering of Russian weapons.
“J-31 with the Russian engine RD-93 is considered to be an export program, able to compete with the American F-35 fifth generation aircraft on the regional markets,” Kornev told RIA Novosti news agency.

 

[Beast]

Maybe the engines they provided aren't next-gen engines at all.
It's logical.
Btw, there's no official statement from China about production of J-20 next year. Why Russian could make those for China?

Similar to J-31, Russian claimed that Chinese J-31 with RD-93 engines could defeat F-35

It so absurd you think PLAAF will release statement about J-20. But obvious evidence could tell us LRIP could be next year becos of unusual grand celebration for prototype 2017 initial flight test at Chengdu test center unseen for other prototype debut.

 

[BoQ77]

It so absurd you think PLAAF will release statement about J-20. But obvious evidence could tell us LRIP could be next year becos of unusual grand celebration for prototype 2017 initial flight test at Chengdu test center unseen for other prototype debut.

We are talking about why Russian would not make the official statement about their engine in J-20 project.
The presence of their engines in any picture of J-20 prototype is the answer, no need any statement.

The success is relative, and depend on what they made for target achievements, and time frame. The celebration as I guess should be the day J-20 complete the design, because China proceeded the running changes for J-20 design. We should notice less change in J-20 appearance by now.
Similar to J-10 design.

Just like we celebrate the first day at school of our kid which he/she doesn't cry, or when he/she graduated from his/her university. It's time frame

 

[Beast]

We are talking about why Russian would not make the official statement about their engine in J-20 project.
The presence of their engines in any picture of J-20 prototype is the answer, no need any statement.

The success is relative, and depend on what they made for target achievements, and time frame. The celebration as I guess should be the day J-20 complete the design, because China proceeded the running changes for J-20 design. We should notice less change in J-20 appearance by now.
Similar to J-10 design.

Just like we celebrate the first day at school of our kid which he/she doesn't cry, or when he/she graduated from his/her university. It's time frame

The obvious is the engine on J-20 is not Russian. That is why they could not make any statement nor could have any talks on importing more so called high thrust engine.

 

[Deino]

The obvious is the engine on J-20 is not Russian. That is why they could not make any statement nor could have any talks on importing more so called high thrust engine.

Funny ... obvious is NOTHING and even more to the contrary all physical details give hint to a Russian engine.

I know all Your arguments and I clearly understand them .... but facts are facts and none of them hints a WS-10 or even already WS-15 like some fan boys dream.

IMO the Sino-Russian relationship - esp. in regard to military cooperation - is a much healthier one than some want to accept.

Deino

 

[BoQ77]

Could we accept the scenario that J-20 would be powered with imported engines?
there's still not anything which is "obvious"

Practically, China should try to replace all of J-10 engines ( hundreds ) with domestic ones first.
It's easier job but delayed too long.

 

[hk299792458]

Could we accept the scenario that J-20 would be powered with imported engines?
there's still not anything which is "obvious"

Practically, China should try to replace all of J-10 engines ( hundreds ) with domestic ones first.
It's easier job but delayed too long.

WS-15 is planned to be used with J-20, this is the target.

Before that, J-20 might use other engines, this is not excluded.

Henri K.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

The 117S got nothing to do with the J-20, the Chinese media has just confirmed it.

And the TVC engine of the J-20 is completely indigenous.

中国矢量发动机获突破 助歼-20格斗秒杀F-22-20151207军迷前线-凤凰视频-最具媒体品质的综合视频门户-凤凰网

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

The 117S got nothing to do with the J-20, the Chinese media has just confirmed it.

And the TVC engine of the J-20 is completely indigenous.

中国矢量发动机获突破 助歼-20格斗秒杀F-22-20151207军迷前线-凤凰视频-最具媒体品质的综合视频门户-凤凰网

How reliable is the media report?

 

[Martian2]

How reliable is the media report?

Why are you surprised?

The J-20 engines have been unknown. This means it can be either Chinese or Russian.

China's WS-10A engine has been around at least since 2005. The original WS-10 engine has been around even longer.

Clearly, China has the capability to build a next-generation turbofan engine.

The WS-10A is based on DD3 nickel-superalloy technology.

The WS-15 is based on DD6 next-generation superalloy technology.

The WS-15 is widely expected to debut around 2018. However, it should not be a surprise if the prototype(s) is available a few years earlier. If things go well, the WS-15 is ready earlier. If there are unexpected delays, the WS-15 would take longer.

Thus, 2018 +/- 3 years is very reasonable. We are three weeks away from 2016. For the WS-15 to appear now is perfectly within the expected time window.
----------

Let's review the known facts.

1. The WS-15 core was first tested in 2005.
2. China has prior experience in building the WS-10A turbofan engine.

Thus, after ten years of work (2005 --> 2015), China could have the WS-15 prototype(s) ready. This is not their first turbofan engine. This means China's experience with the WS-10A turbofan engine should hasten the development of the WS-15. China should know what to expect.

WS15

----------

Here's the probability tree.

Unknown J-20 engine -----> 50% probability Russian
|
|
v
50% probability Chinese -----> 25% probability WS-15 engine
|
|
v
25% probability improved WS-10 variant

On Chinese television, footage was shown of a Chinese WS-10A November 10, 2005 test (see third picture below).

 

[Deino]

How reliable is the media report?

That's indeed the question since so far the J-20 does not use a TVC-engine and the engine shown in this video looks very much like an AL-31FP.

I do not question, that there's is research and testing under way, but the images in the film are questionable...

 

[Deino]

The 117S got nothing to do with the J-20, the Chinese media has just confirmed it.

And the TVC engine of the J-20 is completely indigenous.

中国矢量发动机获突破 助歼-20格斗秒杀F-22-20151207军迷前线-凤凰视频-最具媒体品质的综合视频门户-凤凰网

Honestly I don't think so ...

To admit as far as I understand that video from Phoenix Channel – and honestly I would not rate this channel as a reliable, semi-official source ! – reports about a breakthrough in the research of thrust-vectoring engine by Prof Wang. He is a pioneer in 3D printing and his current research is about a novel delayering technique as applied to a certain thrust-vectoring engine flame tubes driven under high-temperature and heavy-load conditions. Reportedly with this new technique there was no apparent abrasion after a cumulative 216 hours of testing, whereas a maximum of 2 mm abrasion depth occurred after about 10+ hours of testing under traditional configurations.

In consequence this video sequence is more explaining to the audience what TVC does and what use it. To demonstrate this they simply use stock footage of any certain TVC nozzles and aircraft using it …. For me not a clear proof that this is a Chinese engine (esp. since it looks like a AL-31FP) but it implies to me even more this is not a Chinese engine.
Even more I think (at about 02:30) they are explicitly claiming that the "engine of Su-35" can be used to power J-20 and J-11; … for me a clear hint that the current engine used on the J-20 is also a Russian engine, since no other type would be so easily interchangeable for the Su-35, J-11 and J-20.

Again I do not question Mr. Wang’s success (see also 中国激光3D打印带路人王华明当选工程院院士 参与运20C919研制 but IMO the images shown in this video, what a few call right away as proof for a Chinese TVC-engine even today on the J-20 is plain wrong.

I hope I am not again bashed as anti-Chinese – since I’m indeed not – but I’m simply interested in facts and not in wishful thinking.
Deino

 

[Brainsucker]

to be honest, I can't see the difference between AL31 and WS10 series. It's so confusing. People said that it is AL31 or WS10, but I can't see the difference. They have even kindly explained to me, but I still can't understand it.

 

[Deino]

O.k. ... another attempt - even if a bit OT !

But IMO it is not that difficult: first image: Top = WS-10A - bottom = AL-31F ... second image: left = AL-31F - right WS-10A.