Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions
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Pakistan Deal for Chinese J-10 Fighters Uncertain
October 9, 2013 | By Wendell Minnick and Usman Ansari
Deal Delayed? Pakistan's economy and other factors will probably force the country to put off plans to buy J-10 fighters from China.
TAIPEI AND ISLAMABAD — Tough International Monetary Fund conditions on Pakistan and concerns about untested technology likely will delay Islamabad’s plan to buy 36 J-10B Vigorous Dragon multirole fighters from China under a $1.4 billion deal signed in 2009, analysts said.
Current economic conditions “preclude any possibility of acquiring new weapon systems in the next two to three years, at least,” said retired Pakistani Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail, a veteran fighter and test pilot who is now an independent military analyst in Lahore.
Under IMF loan terms, the government faces harsh conditions on raising revenue and controlling spending, including on military equipment.
A Chinese defense delegation visited Pakistan the last week of September to discuss the status of stalled defense deals. Whether this included the J-10 order is unclear.
The J-10B Super-10 is an advanced variant of the J-10A, first fielded in late 2003 with China’s Air Force. The new Super-10 will reportedly be powered by the Chinese-designed WS-10A turbofan engine, which will replace the J-10A’s Russian Saturn AL-31FN. Built by Chengdu Aircraft Industries, the jet is based on Israel’s Lavi indigenous fighter program by Israel Aerospace Industries that was canceled in 1987.
Even if a friendly Arab Gulf state provided financing, Tufail said more used Lockheed Martin F-16Cs from US stocks are preferable, “rather than trying out a new weapon system that is an unknown commodity in the realm of modern-day combat.”
Tufail questioned the wisdom of buying one squadron of J-10s.
To be cost effective “at least three to four squadrons would justify the additional wherewithal and maintenance facilities that would be needed,” he said.
Over-reliance on US high-technology equipment like fighters worries Pakistani officials, and while Tufail said diversification “be explored fully, with China and Russia as suitable sources,” in the case of the fighter, the government may not have another option.
Should a deal occur, however, Tufail foresees no problems with directly or indirectly acquiring Russian equipment such as the J-10’s AL-31FN engine.
The J-10B was first revealed to the public in early 2009. Images appearing on Chinese-language military websites indicate the J-10B had a new nose configuration with an infrared search and tracking system and a “new Diverterless Supersonic Intake configured engine air intake,” also seen on the Chengdu FC-1 Xiaolong (Fierce Dragon), which is co-produced in Pakistan as the JF-17 Thunder, said Richard Fisher, a senior fellow of Asian military affairs at the International Assessment and Strategy Center.
At least one prototype J-10B has featured the indigenous Shenyang-Liming WS-10A turbofan engine, but it remains to be seen whether all production J-10Bs will feature the WS-10A or the Russian Saturn AL-31F turbofan,” Fisher said.
“I think the JF-17 arrangement has been a workable one so far, and future weapon systems with core Russian and Chinese components can be acquired by the Pakistan Air Force on a similar basis, without difficulty,” Tufail said.
Russia allowed China to supply Pakistan the JF-17s Klimov RD-93 engine despite Indian opposition, and prospects have since improved.
“The thawing of Pak-Russo relations over the past few years is certainly a welcome development, and should help override Indian objections to any military cooperation between Pakistan and Russia,” Tufail said.
Technological advances may also scrap the J-10 deal.
Tufail believes the air force may be turning to the stealthy Chengdu J-20 though this is not presently “anything beyond a mere statement of intent.”
“It is a futuristic aircraft, not yet fully operational, and its capabilities are hardly known, so reading too much into this may be rather premature,” Tufail said.
The J-10B would offer Pakistan some advanced fourth generation capabilities.
“The canted nose cone immediately led to speculation that the J-10B also featured a new fixed antennae phased array radar and this was confirmed in 2011,” Fisher said. “There remains some speculation that this radar may be a ‘passive’ versus an ‘active’ electronically scanned array [AESA], but the key point is that the J-10B is clearly a 4+ generation fighter that also included upgraded cockpit systems and electronic warfare systems.”
But if Pakistan chooses not to become the first customer for an export configured J-10B, at $50-60 million per aircraft it will become attractive to countries like Venezuela, Argentina, Peru, Malaysia and Indonesia, who are looking for an affordable multi-role fighter, Fisher said.
Pakistan Deal for Chinese J-10 Fighters Uncertain | Defense News | defensenews.com
October 9, 2013 | By Wendell Minnick and Usman Ansari
Deal Delayed? Pakistan's economy and other factors will probably force the country to put off plans to buy J-10 fighters from China.
TAIPEI AND ISLAMABAD — Tough International Monetary Fund conditions on Pakistan and concerns about untested technology likely will delay Islamabad’s plan to buy 36 J-10B Vigorous Dragon multirole fighters from China under a $1.4 billion deal signed in 2009, analysts said.
Current economic conditions “preclude any possibility of acquiring new weapon systems in the next two to three years, at least,” said retired Pakistani Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail, a veteran fighter and test pilot who is now an independent military analyst in Lahore.
Under IMF loan terms, the government faces harsh conditions on raising revenue and controlling spending, including on military equipment.
A Chinese defense delegation visited Pakistan the last week of September to discuss the status of stalled defense deals. Whether this included the J-10 order is unclear.
The J-10B Super-10 is an advanced variant of the J-10A, first fielded in late 2003 with China’s Air Force. The new Super-10 will reportedly be powered by the Chinese-designed WS-10A turbofan engine, which will replace the J-10A’s Russian Saturn AL-31FN. Built by Chengdu Aircraft Industries, the jet is based on Israel’s Lavi indigenous fighter program by Israel Aerospace Industries that was canceled in 1987.
Even if a friendly Arab Gulf state provided financing, Tufail said more used Lockheed Martin F-16Cs from US stocks are preferable, “rather than trying out a new weapon system that is an unknown commodity in the realm of modern-day combat.”
Tufail questioned the wisdom of buying one squadron of J-10s.
To be cost effective “at least three to four squadrons would justify the additional wherewithal and maintenance facilities that would be needed,” he said.
Over-reliance on US high-technology equipment like fighters worries Pakistani officials, and while Tufail said diversification “be explored fully, with China and Russia as suitable sources,” in the case of the fighter, the government may not have another option.
Should a deal occur, however, Tufail foresees no problems with directly or indirectly acquiring Russian equipment such as the J-10’s AL-31FN engine.
The J-10B was first revealed to the public in early 2009. Images appearing on Chinese-language military websites indicate the J-10B had a new nose configuration with an infrared search and tracking system and a “new Diverterless Supersonic Intake configured engine air intake,” also seen on the Chengdu FC-1 Xiaolong (Fierce Dragon), which is co-produced in Pakistan as the JF-17 Thunder, said Richard Fisher, a senior fellow of Asian military affairs at the International Assessment and Strategy Center.
At least one prototype J-10B has featured the indigenous Shenyang-Liming WS-10A turbofan engine, but it remains to be seen whether all production J-10Bs will feature the WS-10A or the Russian Saturn AL-31F turbofan,” Fisher said.
“I think the JF-17 arrangement has been a workable one so far, and future weapon systems with core Russian and Chinese components can be acquired by the Pakistan Air Force on a similar basis, without difficulty,” Tufail said.
Russia allowed China to supply Pakistan the JF-17s Klimov RD-93 engine despite Indian opposition, and prospects have since improved.
“The thawing of Pak-Russo relations over the past few years is certainly a welcome development, and should help override Indian objections to any military cooperation between Pakistan and Russia,” Tufail said.
Technological advances may also scrap the J-10 deal.
Tufail believes the air force may be turning to the stealthy Chengdu J-20 though this is not presently “anything beyond a mere statement of intent.”
“It is a futuristic aircraft, not yet fully operational, and its capabilities are hardly known, so reading too much into this may be rather premature,” Tufail said.
The J-10B would offer Pakistan some advanced fourth generation capabilities.
“The canted nose cone immediately led to speculation that the J-10B also featured a new fixed antennae phased array radar and this was confirmed in 2011,” Fisher said. “There remains some speculation that this radar may be a ‘passive’ versus an ‘active’ electronically scanned array [AESA], but the key point is that the J-10B is clearly a 4+ generation fighter that also included upgraded cockpit systems and electronic warfare systems.”
But if Pakistan chooses not to become the first customer for an export configured J-10B, at $50-60 million per aircraft it will become attractive to countries like Venezuela, Argentina, Peru, Malaysia and Indonesia, who are looking for an affordable multi-role fighter, Fisher said.
Pakistan Deal for Chinese J-10 Fighters Uncertain | Defense News | defensenews.com
araz
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This is similar to what we have been saying on the forum. There are two further connotations to discuss in relation to the acquisition of J10 by PAF. Firstly US governments willingness to provide F16s even old ones for MLU and reuse by PAF should PAF not be able to procure new ones. The subcondition would be the PAFs evaluation of threat of sanctions from US in the coming years and what other restrictions the US governemnt imposes.Thisis something that only the PAF can answer as the ordinary arm chair general will not be party to all the behind the scene negotiations. There is no doubt that there are F16s Bl 40/42s coccooned by USAF and PAF should be able to utilize the funds available to it to procure them. Even if PAF procures them from its own resources then it would be a cheaper choice of the two.
The other factor to consider is what the J10B provides now that the J31 would not provide 5-8 yrs from now. In other words and put simply can PAF wait 5-8 yrs and procure J321 which by then would be a much more potent and matured platform rahter than buy a half baked platform with unproven technology no matter how good it might seem on paper. Current financial difficulties of the indian economy means they are having to make changes as well which leaves PAF some time to consider its options and even allow the economy to improve which might improve our chances of procurement subsequently.
As I said in my earlier post PAFF finds itself in a greater dilemma than the IAF with regards to its purchases for so many reasons. My own personal thoughts are that we should go down the BL42 route and give J10B a miss altogether , allowing us to save and procure/ invewst in J31 now for a better future.
Araz
The other factor to consider is what the J10B provides now that the J31 would not provide 5-8 yrs from now. In other words and put simply can PAF wait 5-8 yrs and procure J321 which by then would be a much more potent and matured platform rahter than buy a half baked platform with unproven technology no matter how good it might seem on paper. Current financial difficulties of the indian economy means they are having to make changes as well which leaves PAF some time to consider its options and even allow the economy to improve which might improve our chances of procurement subsequently.
As I said in my earlier post PAFF finds itself in a greater dilemma than the IAF with regards to its purchases for so many reasons. My own personal thoughts are that we should go down the BL42 route and give J10B a miss altogether , allowing us to save and procure/ invewst in J31 now for a better future.
Araz
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I think PAF will go for J10B for sure.
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http://bbs.tiexue.net/post2_6958439_1.html]
Number 1031 J10B carry four LRAAM with compound weapon mount and 2 ASRAAM！
Number 1031 J10B carry four LRAAM with compound weapon mount and 2 ASRAAM！
araz
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My friend I would like to hear your reasons for your thoughts. My concern has always been about our financial state rather than the platform itself. The real question is whether china thinks it worth its while to provide PAF with the J10B as a deal which PAF simply cannot refuse.What advantage would it be to the chinese and what advantage does it give to the US to provide us with what we want. This is the equation which needs to be resolved before we can make our mind up.
Araz
airomerix
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Military build up is an essential task for every growing/developed economy. Especially if you're not located with Switzerland or some where in the middle of the pacific.
araz
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Yes but when an economy has gone"khudday line" like ours thanks to Zardari and the PPP idiots what do we do? Secondly it would be nice if you answered the question that I have posed. I really am clueless as to what the equilibrium point in this relationship is.
Araz
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The delay in acquisition of J-10BS from China might be because of the availability of J-31 till 2017 or it might be possible that PAC had joined the program as its share similar engines with JF-17s.
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