Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

[A1Kaid]

When is Pakistan receiving the J-10? 416 pages later and Pakistan still hasn't received these J-10's...

 

[itaskol]

When is Pakistan receiving the J-10? 416 pages later and Pakistan still hasn't received these J-10's...

it will take time.
till now china itself only purchase 4 J10b.
the first order is only 4...

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

it will take time.
till now china itself only purchase 4 J10b.
the first order is only 4...

It take time to develop plane , its not develop over night.....

 

[Inception-06]

Good if that is the case, sadly we don't have similar KJ10 specs, but why would the Chinese develop 2 different puls doppler radars for 2 fighters, if only the diameter size is the difference? They could have simply downsized the KJ 10, or used a bigger KJ7 for their own fighters right?


More that there is a difference between J10 and JF17, although both were mainly developed by China and that China neither seems to procure the latter for their own forces, while PAF should procure J10. And that has nothing to do with the budget or loans, I am aware of that, but as I said earlier, J10 makes only sense for PAF if there is a clear operational advantage, but if the only difference as you say is the design, while techs, payload capabilities and weapons will be the same, I agree with Araz that J31 offers more than J10B.
I just think, there must be technical capabilities that makes J10B different to a future JF17 B3 as well and where China does draw a line between both fighters.

Und Sie sprechen auch deutsch ?

 

[SBD-3]

Our F-6 farmers were made by Shangyang,, so we have been doing business with them since 1965, CAC only stepped in during 80s There is no rivalry between the two, CAC is known recently for their innovation and original design (excluding the F-7 series off course) whereas Shangyang is more known for copying, modifying Russian Sukhois, borrowing intel from existing and tested designs.

Agreed we have been using F-6s made by shenyang so we do have a history of doing business. However, there is a significant degree of competition between the two manufacturers for example
1- CAC competed with SAC on naval procurement leading to J-10s induction in PLANAF.
2- CAC and SAC competed on JXX as well where CAC came out as winner.
3- CAC's J-10 and SACs J-11X has also been competing against eachother for PLAAF service as well.
Some old news with reference to how many J-10s PAF was looking for

Defence spending exceeds Budgetary Allocation
April 16, 2008

MUSHTAQ GHUMMAN

ISLAMABAD: Procurement of Swedish military technology, and JF-17 Thunder aircraft from China for Pakistan Air Force has increased Defence budget by 27 percent to Rs 350 billion from Rs 275 billion allocated in the 2007-08 budget.

Finance Minister Ishaq Dar, in his briefing to the Cabinet a few days ago had disclosed that the government had spent additional Rs 38.5 billion on procurement of defence equipment and aircraft under the Armed Forces Development Program (AFDP) for which not a single penny was allocated in the 2007-08 budget.

"Previous government did not allocate a single penny under AFDP in the budget but later on projected Rs 75 billion for this purpose, of which Rs 38.5 billion has already been paid to procure early warning system from Sweden and JF-17 Thunder from China," sources said.

An official of Finance Ministry confirmed that the government had projected Rs 75 billion over and above the allocated defence budget for procurement for military hardware, of which Rs 38.5 billion has already been paid.

"PAF has seriously lagged behind over the years, mainly due to various geo-political and economic constraints. In order to redress this capability deficit, PAF has very carefully evaluated the hi-tech options against well-defined air staff requirements," sources said.

It is not clear when it was decided to purchase these very expensive items: at the time of the budget, when this item was deliberately kept out to show a lower deficit or at a later time by the PAF for which approval must have been sought by the President.

Attempt was made to contact Secretary, Defence, Kamran Rasool, and PAF spokesman Sarfraz Ahmad, but no response was received. The government had allocated Rs 275 billion for defence in the federal budget, of which Rs 170.2 billion has already been spent during July-February against the projections of Rs 167.5 billion.

On April 12, 2006, federal cabinet had decided to purchase 98 hi-tech aircraft from the United States and China besides missiles and other equipment to improve the capabilities of Pakistan Air Force (PAF). When the proposal had been approved, PAF's combat fleet consisted of around 350 aircraft.

The bulk of its inventory comprises old Mirages and Chinese-origin A-5, FT-6 and F-7 aircraft. With the exception of F-7 PGs, most of these aircraft are more than 20 years old and are scheduled to retire between 2008 and 2015.

Foreseeing this retirement schedule and the known difficulties associated with replacing all old aircraft with western equipment, PAF embarked upon the co-development of JF-17 aircraft. The induction of JF-17 had been planned so as to have a systematic replacement of the retired fleet.

According to an official document, exclusively obtained by Business Recorder, mixed package of hi-tech aircraft and equipment, being purchased from USA and China, is as under: FC-20 aircraft (36), SD-10 BVR missiles (300), F-16 A/B, ex-Pakistan (26), F-16 C/D (18 with an option for 18 more), BVR, 500(American), targeting pods 18 and joint direct attack munitions (500). The expenditure on the entire package would be met from PAF share in Armed Forces Development Program (AFDP-2019), the document says.

The Cabinet, according to the document, has allowed PAF to set up Joint Working Group (JWG) with CATIC for procurement of 36 FC-20 aircraft. The government would also help PAF in securing long-term credit financing for the FC-20 aircraft from Chinese government, besides allowing PAF to initiate a Letter of Request (LoR) for the F-16 package and equipment through the Defence Ministry.

While the US F-16 C/D and Swedish Grippen qualified against the PAF requirements, the Chinese FC-20, in its present state, lagged behind due to the lack of advanced avionics systems and weapons. For the future, however, PAF termed it as a good option with very promising growth potential to become one of the frontline fighters to face the challenges of the 21st century, the sources maintained.

 

[Anony]

I think instead of waiting for J -10 Pakistan should invest some extra dollar and bring following changes to Jf-17.

1. Avionics: They should upgrade avionics of Jf-17 or better to say make a new one.

2. Airframe: They should try modify their airframe and try use composites instead of aluminium which results in very high RCS and also increase operating cost.

3. Radar: They should try and include AESA radar into it and they have 3-5 years to make it become a reality. As their only adversary India too will not have AESA platform before 2015.

 

[Armstrong]

I think instead of waiting for J -10 Pakistan should invest some extra dollar and bring following changes to Jf-17.

1. Avionics: They should upgrade avionics of Jf-17 or better to say make a new one.

2. Airframe: They should try modify their airframe and try use composites instead of aluminium which results in very high RCS and also increase operating cost.

3. Radar: They should try and include AESA radar into it and they have 3-5 years to make it become a reality. As their only adversary India too will not have AESA platform before 2015.

On the avionics - Some of the more informed members on PDF think that they're already good enough & they'd go through life cycle upgrades subsequently !

On the composites - Yup reduced maintenance cost is an advantage but using more composites per unit may off-set the advantage a low-cost Multi Role platform the JF-17 accrues by raising the costs. From what I've heard the maintenance costs aren't that intensively high either !

As for the RCS reduction - It doesn't matter ! And I'll tell you why because RCS is effected by even small bumps on the airframe, from what I've read here on PDF & so using composites to reduce its RCS would be massively off-set by the JF-17 carrying its full armaments of WVR, BVR, A2G missiles along with the external fuel tanks ! It may, however, help with a better T/W ratio, increased range & more payload ability but that would again betray the purpose of the platform being a low-cost multi role aircraft that provides value for money unlike anything in the same price or class range. Plus we appear to be pretty happy with its current specifications to loose much sleep over that.

On to the AESA radar - Thats complected stuff but I do hope that a Sino-Pak JV of a sorts is signed between the two of them to bring something to that effect available but then again the same 'Price' issue would pop up !

 

[Anony]

On the avionics - Some of the more informed members on PDF think that they're already good enough & they'd go through life cycle upgrades subsequently !

On the composites - Yup reduced maintenance cost is an advantage but using more composites per unit may off-set the advantage a low-cost Multi Role platform the JF-17 accrues by raising the costs. From what I've heard the maintenance costs aren't that intensively high either !

As for the RCS reduction - It doesn't matter ! And I'll tell you why because RCS is effected by even small bumps on the airframe, from what I've read here on PDF & so using composites to reduce its RCS would be massively off-set by the JF-17 carrying its full armaments of WVR, BVR, A2G missiles along with the external fuel tanks ! It may, however, help with a better T/W ratio, increased range & more payload ability but that would again betray the purpose of the platform being a low-cost multi role aircraft that provides value for money unlike anything in the same price or class range. Plus we appear to be pretty happy with its current specifications to loose much sleep over that.

On to the AESA radar - Thats complected stuff but I do hope that a Sino-Pak JV of a sorts is signed between the two of them to bring something to that effect available but then again the same 'Price' issue would pop up !

Dude I don't want to talk about avionics, as I have not read what others members has posted but on composites you are highly mistaken. Aluminium body increases the RCS like anything. This is why whole world has gone for composites and as far as cost is concerned, even with these upgrades Jf-17 will cost far lesser than J-10.

 

[SBD-3]

Dude I don't want to talk about avionics, as I have not read what others members has posted but on composites you are highly mistaken. Aluminium body increases the RCS like anything. This is why whole world has gone for composites and as far as cost is concerned, even with these upgrades Jf-17 will cost far lesser than J-10.

Composites have more to do with weight than RCS which is primarily dependent upon shape of the aircraft.

 

[SQ8]

Dude I don't want to talk about avionics, as I have not read what others members has posted but on composites you are highly mistaken. Aluminium body increases the RCS like anything. This is why whole world has gone for composites and as far as cost is concerned, even with these upgrades Jf-17 will cost far lesser than J-10.

urm..a very vague description.
Composites are useless unless they are used within a structure that minimizes RCS.
Their transparency means that even if Radar waves pass through they will reflect off the inner structure of the aircraft.
If your statement was even close to true than the Mosquito being made of all wood would have an RCS comparable to the F-117.

Please read up on what are the actual properties of composites vis-a-vis RCS reduction.

 

[Viper0011.]

I think instead of waiting for J -10 Pakistan should invest some extra dollar and bring following changes to Jf-17.

1. Avionics: They should upgrade avionics of Jf-17 or better to say make a new one.

2. Airframe: They should try modify their airframe and try use composites instead of aluminium which results in very high RCS and also increase operating cost.

3. Radar: They should try and include AESA radar into it and they have 3-5 years to make it become a reality. As their only adversary India too will not have AESA platform before 2015.

Absolutely not. The JFT has three specific purposes: 1: To replace aging jets with 4th gen capability. 2: Reduced cost to capability (1:3) when compared to capability measurement against F-16 B-30's and Mirage 2000's and Mig 29 (before SMT). 3: Work horse (2nd tier that can hold it's own) with bvr missiles, modern radar, in house development and NO STRINGS ATTACHED.
So the above were and are being accomplished by the JFT very effectively.
Now you can't take this jet and try to turn it into an F-15 or EFT. That would be terrible. In fact, now that Pakistan has the know how. It needs to move up a notch and get some 4.5 gen tech transferred from Pakistan. I personally think it is time for J-11B and J-31 for Pakistan but I know $$$$ are a huge issue. So FC-20 is definitely a better option for the high end of PAF's jets. On paper, this jet's future version B-batch II is equivalent to EFT and Rafale's class. So that's a lot.
Introduce this and build it in Pakistan without strings, you've turn the tables around from a capability's standpoint. Next step for the PAF would be to introduce J-11 or J-16 and J-31. These would change the equations from a balance's standpoint. By then, Pakistan may also be operating Stealth UAV's with tactical payload capability.

 

[HAIDER]

In late-February 2006, the President of Pakistan, Pervez Musharraf, toured the J-10 and JF-17 production facilities during which the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was offered the J-10,and the purchase of 40 J-10s was approved on 12 April 2006. The J-10s would equip two PAF squadrons from 2014–2015 and be known as the FC-20.

********.com - Pakistan will get 40 Chinese J10?in 2014

 

[sancho]

On paper, this jet's future version B-batch II is equivalent to EFT and Rafale's class. So that's a lot.

On what paper? There is no reliable source for any of J10Bs capabilities so far, let alone the versions that PAF might get. First it needs to be seen if it catches up to Gripen NG capabilities, rather than EF T3 or even Rafale F3+.
The changes that can be seen so far, makes them more comparable to the changes of latest Mig 29s, reduction of RCS, improved radar and avionics mainly, but important points to make it a really capable medium class fighter are lacking. No additional hardopoints, not additional fuel, limitation to 3 wet/heavy stations only. That's actually the same limitation the EF has, to be a good multi role fighter. But with China diverting their focus on NG fighters, a more comprehensive upgrade like Gripen C to Gripen NG might not be important anymore.

 

[Viper0011.]

On what paper? There is no reliable source for any of J10Bs capabilities so far, let alone the versions that PAF might get.

Oh yes there is a 'paper'!!!! I can tell you that much . BUT, you'll have to wait for about 6-8 more months till this information becomes public (o may be much earlier). So just hang tight and wait. Time cures everything.

 

[SLR722]

Absolutely not. The JFT has three specific purposes: 1: To replace aging jets with 4th gen capability. 2: Reduced cost to capability (1:3) when compared to capability measurement against F-16 B-30's and Mirage 2000's and Mig 29 (before SMT). 3: Work horse (2nd tier that can hold it's own) with bvr missiles, modern radar, in house development and NO STRINGS ATTACHED.
So the above were and are being accomplished by the JFT very effectively.
Now you can't take this jet and try to turn it into an F-15 or EFT. That would be terrible. In fact, now that Pakistan has the know how. It needs to move up a notch and get some 4.5 gen tech transferred from Pakistan. I personally think it is time for J-11B and J-31 for Pakistan but I know $$$$ are a huge issue. So FC-20 is definitely a better option for the high end of PAF's jets. On paper, this jet's future version B-batch II is equivalent to EFT and Rafale's class. So that's a lot.
Introduce this and build it in Pakistan without strings, you've turn the tables around from a capability's standpoint. Next step for the PAF would be to introduce J-11 or J-16 and J-31. These would change the equations from a balance's standpoint. By then, Pakistan may also be operating Stealth UAV's with tactical payload capability.

this is exactly what i think..JF 17 in not meant to counter Sukhois and Rafale, instead it is being built to replace the aging fleet of PAF and serve till 2035-40. This time frame would be enough for PAF to look for other fighters like J10,J11,J31 to counter any adversary. By 2015 j10 or any other 4.5gen fighter would be in our skies and by 2020 PAF would be looking for stealth fighter. This is how modernization should be done. We can not simply go for j10s when there are mirages and other old aircraft still serving PAF.
JFT is a 4th gen fighter, which makes it self dependent and it can protect itself.
people in serving PAF are not dumb. they know exactly what they are doing