Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

[SBD-3]

Well On official PAF calender 2009 there is J-10A next to description of FC-20. So it may be J-10A but I think J-10B came after those calenders were printed.(Late 2008)

J-10A can't be better than Falcons. It should be J-10B otherwise PAF would've exercised the option for Vipers

 

[Rank]

J-10A can't be better than Falcons. It should be J-10B otherwise PAF would've exercised the option for Vipers

Fully agreed even i dont think so J10B better thn F16... F16 is pure battle proven and most high performance bird in the world.

 

[PakShaheen79]

J-10A can't be better than Falcons. It should be J-10B otherwise PAF would've exercised the option for Vipers

Brother every matter must be seen keeping geo politics of world. J-10B are the best we can afford and ask out great friends (China) to make it as good as they can.

Number of vipers are not very big (36) whereas according to Pakdef PAF is in need of More than 100 J-10s will be procured after first 36 can't say if US would have given us 100 Vipers (New One)...

 

[SBD-3]

Brother every matter must be seen keeping geo politics of world. J-10B are the best we can afford and ask out great friends (China) to make it as good as they can.

Number of vipers are not very big (36) whereas according to Pakdef PAF is in need of More than 100 J-10s will be procured after first 36 can't say if US would have given us 100 Vipers (New One)...

but one thing must be kept in mind is that we could also buy J-10s after 16 Vipers. And we also had Grippen on offer. I doubt PAF would drop that beauty in favor of J-10A. It gotta be a J-10B.

 

[truepakistani17]

as far as i know it wont be the J10A. infact what we call the FC20 is not even the J10B as the specs of FC20 may well be further modified if required after the idaina MRCA deal in finalized.

 

[wangrong]

 

[monitor]

fc-20 will be custom build for pakistan ?or it will be build in pakistan by pakistan as the indian doing with their su-30miki by instaling israeli and french parts.
if not i think pakistan should try to produce some avionics parts in pakistan under licensce from any western company to use in their fc-20 and also for jf-17 and gradualy try to degine and build their own avionics just as the turkey doing for their f-35 beside this it would be wise to even try to produce engine of jf-17 in pakistan under tot from any country

 

[wangrong]

 

[SBD-3]

fc-20 will be custom build for pakistan ?or it will be build in pakistan by pakistan as the indian doing with their su-30miki by instaling israeli and french parts.
if not i think pakistan should try to produce some avionics parts in pakistan under licensce from any western company to use in their fc-20 and also for jf-17 and gradualy try to degine and build their own avionics just as the turkey doing for their f-35 beside this it would be wise to even try to produce engine of jf-17 in pakistan under tot from any country

There are rumors that it will be coming with ToT , however PAF will be installing western avionics produced under license in these birds, French avionics seem to be the winner in this case

 

[deathfromabove]

Hui Tong's site has updated J-10B info:
(Initially AESA then to PESA and now X-band AESA!)

The 01/1031 prototype of the new J-10B was unveiled in March 2009, 3 months after its maiden flight in December 2008. This much improved variant features a DSI/bump engine inlet which not only cuts weight but also reduces RCS, after a similar design was first tested onboard FC-1/JF-17. The aircraft also features a J-11B style IRST/LR and a wide-angle holographic HUD. IRST enables passive detection of enemy aircraft, making J-10B more stealthy in combat. Its nose appears flatter too, similar to that of American F-16, and fire-control radar is thought to be an X-band AESA developed by the 607 Institute, the first of such type ever being developed for a Chinese fighter aircraft, giving J-10B a stronger multi-target engagement and ECCM capability. Two large ECM pods are attached under the wings. The tip of vertical tailfin was redesigned as well, featuring a large fairing containing communication and ECM antennas, which resembles that of French Mirage 2000. A rear facing MAWS sensor can be seen underneath the parachute boom. A similar system was tested onboard FC-1/JF-17 as well. All these improvements suggest that J-10B is equipped with a new generation of integrated electronic system, ranging from radar to EW system. The aircraft thus serves likely as a testbed for various advanced avionics onboard the 4th generation J-14. Its mission may be changed from air-superiority to multi-purpose, such as AG or EW. In addition, the aircarft is expected to be powered eventually by an indigenous WS-10A turbofan. Overall J-10B is thought to be comparable to American F-16E/Block 60.

Chinese Military Aviation

 

[ice_man]

ok as for J10As or J-10Bs i just hope we sign the deal soon...maybe at the 60th anniversary of the PLAAF.....we haven't signed the agreement officially yet!!!

 

[deathfromabove]

All you need to know about J-10B

The Dragon's New Claws: The J-10B Emerging

In December 2008, rumors were rife of the J-10's latest incarnation, the J-10B, had taken off for the first time. Now in April 2009, we see the initial leak of images for this plane. The J-10B appears as the next iteration of China's vaunted 4th Generation fighter and looks to take the J-10 to the 4.5 Generation level.

The differences that have been identified from the earlier J-10 include a DSI intake, similar to the one on the FC-1/JF-17. The nose is now oval, more similar to an F-16's and is slightly canted downwards. An IRST similar to the J-11Bs also feature on top of the nose. Slanted radome paint along with some of the other features suggest an AESA radar.

The J-10B incorporates a new small ECM housing on the vertical stabilizer and this stabilizer also appears to be longer and ending in a "shark-fin". The ECM housing is similar to the housing on the JF-17. The two ventral fins are also extended further and are larger irrespective of the shark-fin. The aerodynamic refinements of the longer vertical stabilizer and the ventral fins appear to be a result of the DSI intakes which create greater lateral forces on the aircraft.

The wide angle HUD featured on the J-11Bs seem to have also appeared on the J-10B. While it cannot be confirmed, it appears that the cockpit itself has been redesigned extensively. Other than the new ECM housing on the vertical stabilizer, new MAWs appear on the tail bump. Just below these, curious breaks appear on the fuselage that some observers are referring to as possible formation lights "slime lights", but expert opinion from a Lockheed Martin source suggest that they are FLIR sensors. A redesigned satellite communication unit appears right behind the cockpit.

A retractable refueling probe is likely, given the development of the J-10 thus far, and is possibly located on the port side, not visible in the latest photographs. The photographs also suggest new under-wing pylons. These appear to be strengthened for a variety of possible uses, ranging from larger drop tanks to ASMs.

The engine is likely to be either a redesigned WS-10A (B?) or possibly the WS-15, a new generation engine currently in advanced development. This would not only have higher thrust than the AL-31s, but also feature TVCs, giving the J-10Bs vaunted agility an even greater boost. The actual engine on the aircraft presently on the released pictures, is the AL-31.

Like the J-10S, a J-10BS is also eventually likely. This would be an advanced trainer with the 360 degree view similar to the J-10S. EW/Wild Weasel variants could also eventually be possible.

PAF

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has shown a great deal of interest in the J-10 project as a possible substitute for Western combat aircraft for its high end requirements. The PAF, however, wanted a more modern version. Just as the FC-1s (and before the FC-1, the F-7s) were significantly upgraded due to the PAF's push for improvements, the J-10 appears to be going through a similar phase. The reason for this is that the PAF has a far closer view of Western technologies and trends and thus can provide deeper insight than more insulated Chinese expertise. The J-10B in all likelihood has had major input from the PAF and is the FC-20 that the PAF has ordered.

While there were rumors of the PAF receiving its first J-10s as early as 2009, the purchase has been delayed to 2014/2015. However, there is no doubt that the PAF sees its future inextricably linked to the J-10Bs/FC-20s. Informed sources suggest that PAF is not only looking to purchase, but to set up the necessary infrastructure to maintain and upgrade these birds. According to well informed sources, the aforementioned delay is primarily as a result of engine issues. The AL-31 would create maintenance and logistics problems for the PAF, given the lack of a working relationship with Russia. The WS-10A/B has not met quality standards. This leaves the PAF high and dry for now vis-a-vis the J-10. Their engine options now are to either to wait for a more reliable WS-10A version or to go for the WS-15, a new generation engine with similar dimensions.

The delay in procurement is critical for PAF as it needs a quality high end to counter the larger IAF with her MKIs, Mirage-2000s and MRCA. With a new sensor rich environment dominated by AWACS on both sides and a large number of BVR platforms, higher altitude BVR engagements would become vital. J-10s are ideally suited for such combat given their aerodynamics including low wing loading in an A2A configuration. The instantaneous turn rates achievable on the J-10 (or the Euro canards) are likely to give an advantage in such engagements, as opposed to the high wing loadings on the over-evolved F-16s which were essentially designed for turning dog fights rather than high altitude BVR slash and dash maneuvers.

With the AESA equipped new J-10Bs, higher thrust engines and better EW/Avionics, PAF would reclaim the qualitative edge over the IAF. These J-10s would be superior in air combat than anything that the IAF fields today and would only be matched by a possible MRCA acquisition by India. Even then, with the 5 present contenders left in the MRCA, only the Eurofighter (assuming AESA radars) would be able to match the J-10 in air-to-air combat.

The PAF is looking for a total of 150 high end aircraft like the F-16 Block 52s and the FC-20 (J-10Bs or J-10Ps). The FC-20s could be procured in greater numbers, depending on relations with the U.S. and the operability of the F-16s. The J-10Bs and the JF-17s make a perfect pair - one ideal for high altitude air superiority and deep strike missions while the other ideal as a true multirole fighter. Where the J-10 lacks in deep strike, the F-16s make up for it. Where the J-10s lack in CAS, the JF-17s make up for it. Where the JF-17 lacks in high altitude BVR engagements, the J-10s make up for it.

The J-10s, F-16s and JF-17s also fit into the AFDP-2019 requirements. The AFDP-2019 is the core document on the strategic planning of Pakistan's armed forces over 15 years. While this document is not available in the public domain, informed sources note that the PAF has been assigned procurement of only single engine combat aircraft. The J-10Bs/FC-20s coupled with the JF-17s and F-16s thus ideally meet these requirements.

In the event that the Indian Air Force decides to procure massive numbers of Western 4.5 generation fighters, beyond the 126 MRCA, while increasing the Su-30MKI numbers and upgrades their MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s, the PAF has a clear charted path in increasing JF-17s and FC-20s, having by then set up the infrastructure and training for these planes. Further, the JF-17s would not only allow PAF to counter numbers, but also allow her to maintain larger numbers of FC-20s and F-16s for war-time and lower their depreciation - providing a low cost training aircraft to fly liberally during peacetime. This would be a similar arrangement to how the Israeli Air Force uses F-16s to keep meet the flight time allocations of its F-15 pilots.

The PAF is looking to add as much potency as possible, within its budget constraints; shopping for avionics from Western sources to add further potential to its JF-17s and FC-20s. Thus far, Chinese developments have been so rapid that by the time decisions were to be made at the PAF, the Chinese would meet or exceed requirements and the competition at a lower price. It remains to be seen if this can be pulled off again by the Chinese when PAF goes shopping for the next block of JF-17s and the new FC-20s. For the FC-20s, EW, cockpit interface and reliability of the new Chinese AESA radar will play a critical role. The PAF is meanwhile keeping open options with European equivalents, including the M-AESA (Multi-role Active Electronically Scanned Antenna) being developed by Saab and Selex and a French AESA, yet to be revealed.

By 2014, some of PAF's F-16s would be ready for retirement as well. While they have been better kept than many other air forces, some of these birds would by then have been in service for more than 30 years. FC-20s could also be used to replace these.

J-10Bs for Iran?

There have been some reports of Iran being interested in purchasing the J-10Bs from China. Looking at Iran's present arsenal, there is no doubt Iran needs new planes. In fact, it has been seen as surprising that Iran has not procured new fighter planes from China since a small purchase of J-7s. They certainly have shown interest in the new J-7Gs and the JH-7s, both perfect substitutes for Iranian F-5s, Su-24s and F-4s. With some Israeli lineage in the J-10s, some commentators have questioned if their may not be an agreement that these birds never be sold to Iran, as a condition for Israeli technical help. Another reason is that Iran and China have not always seen eye-to-eye on patent related issues. Life is stranger than fiction it appears, as China has had issues with its products being reverse-engineered by Iran.

J-10 Vs F-16 Technical Comparison

The F-16 was designed from the outset as a dog-fighter. The moderate sweep of the wings and aspect ratios were ideal for this. The trade-off however, was greater supersonic resistance. The thrust offered by the two engine options on the F-16 is impressive even to this day. TWR in air combat is about 1.15, ensuring impressive climbing rates and sustained turn rates. As noted, the F-16 sacrificed supersonic performance, not only in its wing design but also in its fixed air intakes. In supersonic flight, engine thrust is lost. While it can reach Mach 2.0, pragmatically it has poor supersonic performance.

While the F-16 sacrificed supersonic performance for subsonic dogfighting, the J-10 did not make the same sacrifice. Thus, while when the F-16 was designed, turning dogfights were what was projected as the bread and butter of air combat, when the J-10 was being designed, the BVR era had arrived (or re-arrived). The J-10s aerodynamic design, including wing design and inlet design, take this into account. For instance, the J-10 visibly has greater wing sweep and a variable inlet. With the J-10B, a DSI intake. While the J-10B sacrifices maximum theoretical top speeds with its DSI intakes, for all relevant combat speeds, it gives the J-10 superior performance.

Under modern BVR conditions and higher altitude combat, the J-10 is significantly superior to the F-16. This is also reflected in its higher instantaneous turn rates. The Mirage-2000s have been a point of major concern both for the Pakistanis and the Turkish air forces, because of these aerodynamic issues, despite the Mirages weak engines. The Greeks, who operated both the Mirage 2000 and F-16C considered the F-16 to be better at low altitude, low speed, hard turning fights, and Mirage 2000 to be superior at hi-hi.The F-16 would have to attempt to survive the first merge in an air combat scenario, which becomes increasingly suicidal with high off-bore sight missiles. BVR further compounds these problems for the F-16s. In previous eras, flying hi and fast was fine, but you often had to come down low to engage a low flying enemy aircraft. Today, that becomes less relevant with longer range BVR missiles and look-down shoot-down capabilities.

The F-16 has also been adding weight over time and attempting to counterbalance this with increased engine thrust. However, since wing area remained the same, maneuverability has been sacrificed. Higher wing loading is particularly detrimental for higher altitude maneuverability. The J-10 on the other hand, has all the wing area it could ever need with a delta canard layout.

The newer block F-16s however, are great for low altitude air-to-ground missions. The high wing loading favors low fliers and the moderate wing sweep helps handling at lower speeds often necessary during ordnance delivery. The J-10 is thus not ideal for the CAS role. However, because of the range and payload advantages, the J-10 can be considered an effective deep striker. CAS was never a pressing need for the PLAAF, and the PAF has the JF-17 which is ideal for that role.

Three Different J-10s?

The reported total estimated number of J-10s is 1,200. This figure is according to Russian sources from the Moscow Airshow and is also reported in the Department of Defense annual reports to the U.S. Congress on Chinese military modernization. Given these numbers would go to the various J-10 variants. This author's view is that China has no limits set for the production of J-10s. They'll take as many as Chengdu can produce. However, the real question is - which J-10?

Firstly, we have the First Generation J-10s with AL-31 engines. Chengdu was to follow these with a J-10A with WS-10A engines. This evolution has encountered obstacles related to reliability issues. The J-10B, represents a 4.5 generation plane but it remains to be seen what engine is used with this plane. Meanwhile, according to informed commentators, a J-10C with twin engines around the size of RD-33s and incorporating similar features to the J-10B has arrived. This is supposedly a direct competitor to the Eurofighter and has the same layout - twin engined canard delta with a single tail. The PLAAF will have to decide whether to go with the J-10B or the J-10C at some point. Pakistan will not go for the J-10C as the twin engines do not comply with their doctrine of single-engined fighters and with the AFDP-2019.

A carrier based J-10 has also been reported but this is in direct competition with the J-13, a dedicated 4.5++ carrier fighter with a conventional layout similar to the F/A-18 Super Hornets. Lastly, we have a stealth 5th Generation evolution of the delta canard, but this has reportedly lost out to a conventional layout based on the F-22. Chengdu has reportedly not lost out completely but is taking part in the project jointly with Shenyang.

Chinese 5th Gen

The 5th Generation Chinese stealth plane is what would eventually close down J-10 production. The XXJ or J-XX as it is often referred to, has been the subject of intense competition between China's two premier fighter design institutions - CAC and SAC. While CAC's 611 Institute lost the bid to SAC's 601 Institute, both entities have begun joint development of the new fighter. How the rivalry plays out remains to be seen. It appears Chengdu has the upper hand as it is perceived to have been more successful. J-10 program director Liu Gaozhou recently stated that, " we are researching and developing a fourth generation to meet the requirements of defending the motherland." China's fourth generation is of course, the 5th generation we refer to in the West.

The design is a conventional layout in direct similarity to the F-22. The J-XX will be powered by the WS-15, a new generation engine in development. Normal TO weight would roughly measure to 20 tons and thus be in the heavy fighter class.The J-XX would possibly be superior to all but the PAKFA and the F-22, being inferior to the latter.

What has escaped most observer radars is the MiG-E and a yet unnamed fighter from China that represent a direct counterpart to the F-35. According to an informed source, the configuration of the MiG-E is a canard delta while the configuration for the Chinese equivalent is hitherto not known. It is however, this author's opinion that we will not see (as in leaked photographs on the internet) any development on the 5th Generation front for at least the next decade. Meanwhile, we will see steady evolution of the J-10 and J-11 with every new block and reworked configurations.

Credits:
Forums: Keypublishing Forums, Defence.pk, Sino Defence Forums, China-Defense Forums

Special Credits:
Crobato
Deino
FaisalK (Mark Sein)
Farooq
GAF
Huitong
Jawad
Murad (Muradk)
Munir
Pinko, CDF
vikasrehman
Zia ul haq

http://www.grandestrategy.com/2009/04/559695923848203-dragons-new-claws-j-10b.html

 

[Chanakyaa]

With the AESA equipped new J-10Bs, higher thrust engines and better EW/Avionics, PAF would reclaim the qualitative edge over the IAF. These J-10s would be superior in air combat than anything that the IAF fields today and would only be matched by a possible MRCA acquisition by India. Even then, with the 5 present contenders left in the MRCA, only the Eurofighter (assuming AESA radars) would be able to match the J-10 in air-to-air combat.

Is J10B Really Going to be better than F16IN Blk 60 , F/A 18IN and Rafale ( All 3 will have AESA ) ?
In A2A Frame.
Plz Explain. Thanks.

 

[deathfromabove]

Is J10B Really Going to be better than F16IN Blk 60 , F/A 18IN and Rafale ( All 3 will have AESA ) ?
In A2A Frame.
Plz Explain. Thanks.

Dude, I'm not really the guy to ask. Check out the credits. I hope some senior member will be able to address your query.

 

[mean_bird]

Is J10B Really Going to be better than F16IN Blk 60 , F/A 18IN and Rafale ( All 3 will have AESA ) ?
In A2A Frame.
Plz Explain. Thanks.

You do realize you are asking a question about a plane that is not even out yet? Nobody can tell you for sure what it will be because nobody knows...and if anyone knows, he/she will not disclose it.

At the moment, all is speculation. If we are to believe chinese officials, then even the J-10A is superior in A2A than the J-11 (upgraded Su-27). However, even the basic data about J-10 is not available for the general public and is mostly guess work. We do see from the exterior pictures some improvements like ECM housing, slightly slanted cone that suggests a PESA or an AESA, etc.

My personal opinion is that it will be more manuevarable in A2A than F-16 and F-18 but 'might' lack in avionics and missiles (in terms of technology) but thats just my personal opinion based on stuff I have read around and is purely a guess work at this stage. But even if it does, I do not think it will be far behind.

Lets wait and see for more information to surface before drawing any definitive conclusions.