Chak Shehzad Power Scandal

[MastanKhan]

Hi Folks
We should stick to the Chak Shehzad Power Scandal.
Who is chief justice and what his character we can discuss this on some other thread.

Today I spoke with my family in Pakistan. I am told that in some areas (middle class areas) of Lahore tomatoes are more than 100 Rs /kg. I am very poor in math can some one help me in calculations, if I grow tomato in one acre how much I will make in Pak Rs. Also how many acres I have to grow to buy one flat in London.

Hi Murshad,

Like a river flows and makes its own course so does a discussion takes its natural course---it will change direction---but will come back.

Have you seen this board lately---wimpy as a diddly doo---

Secondly----with only 34 posts on the board and not one in detail and of an article type---I don't think that you have earned the right to direct the discussion.

Lastly----in order to buy a flat in london---firstly you may direct your inquiries to Zardari, then to Nawaz and in a few days to Musharraf and Shaukat Aziz,.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi Qsaark,

I maybe in error, I maybe be wrong, but my judgement is never flawed. You see the CJ has all been a hype---he never had the cojones to put one police officer in prison full time---not one---the actions that he took agaist getting some hari's released from police custody, were picked up again by the police and brutalized.

You see---it is not the job of the CJ to go do the petty stufff---for that he has junior staff and junior judges---it is his job to create a system where the judges are forced to do their jobs and put in a 8 hour work day---and not spend 4 hours of the day taking tea breaks and lunches.

So now you have the chief justice of the supreme court looking into every petty stuff---and taking it upon himself to do the job---when that happens who is going to respect the junuior judges---.

If the medical superintendant MS of a district picks up a broom and starts to clear the sh-it and dirt and ***** everytime there is dump created on the corner---then who is going to ask the sweeper to do his job. Well everybody will ask the the MS to pickup the sh-it from the corner next time there is a dump. Nobody would ask the sweeper----why ask him when you can force the higher authority to do your job.

The CJ's job is to designate authority and let the staff do the job---force the junior judges to step upto the plate and take appropriate action.


Now as for all the millitary men who came into power----it was absolutely the failure of the civilian government that the millitary came into power every single time----on more than one occassion it was the civilians that put the millitary to shame and forced them to accede to power by over throwing the govt. Once the millitary came into power---they were distributing sweet meats on the streets----there was jubiliations and parties by the civilians all over---there were prayers of thanks offered in the mosques when the millitary came into power.

Was the millitary made of saints---absolutely not---the politicians have used and abused the millitary and so has the the pakistani civilian society for their personal gains as well.

Now as for as Musharraf goes---he was as good as his team---it is a misnomer that he made all the decisions himself---he asked Shahbaz Sharif to make a govt---he asked Imran to make one---he even asked Amin Fahim to form one too---everyone of them passed----because they too were incompetent and were clueless what to do---what you see is what you get----.

The way the pakistan govt is run is truly reflective ot the intellect of the pakistani civil society---the way the pakistani government and its machinery is run is also reflective of the mindset of the nation----if there is no electricity available----it is not the govt's fault only----it is the people's fault as well----the fruit never falls too far away from the tree.

If Musharraf failed----he was the reflection of the majority of the pakistanis---. When our govt fails---it is us civilians who have failed---we need to standup and take the ownership of our failures---we need to stop pointing fingers at our millitary dictators and elected officials---we put them in that position---when they fail---we have failed. The nation has failed.

What is the big deal about the billings of chuk shahzad---4 lak ruppees is chicken sh-it. Mr Ansari or whatever the name of the writer is---ought to be ashamed of following up on this petty issue----he needs to go after the wealth of Benazir Bhutto / Zaradri / Nawaz Sharif and co.

 

[Rafael]

i will take sir CJ as an actual savior of this country the day he would succeed in getting the cases solved a rate rapid and is able to provide speedy justice to all, till then he can lead long marches and can carryon with sumoto stuf![QUOTE]

Well atleast he has started it with new judicial policy.

 

[Xeric]

MK has said it all! Anybody who have the genes to comprehend things 'positively' would not debate any further, otherwise God Bless You!

i have other things to take care of, till then bye bye dear thread.

 

[qsaark]

My dear Mastan Saheb, how difficult it is for me to get into a heated debate with you whom I consider my elder brother and a mentor. But I will say what I think is correct.

The job of the CJP as a lower rank official: Mastan Saheb, I do not know for how long you are living in the USA. But I am here for almost 4 years now. Among several other things that I like about this wonderful country is the habit of people to finish the job whether it belongs to them or not. Maybe it is a bit different in your profession, but at least in my profession, we do not wait for somebody to do the job, we act proactively and finish the job. It has happened several times that my Professor asked me or others to work on some paper, report or on some presentation but we were not able to finish it in time. He won’t wait for us, realizing that we may be busy in doing other stuff; he would go ahead and finish the job. That way, not only the work is done in time, but he also sets up an example for the rest of us, who are working for him. Next time we do our best to finish something before he steps in to do it by himself.

I can see the same motive behind the habit of the CJP when he goes ahead and do the job. Let me make one thing very clear here, the CJP knows the law and very well. He never does anything that does not fall into his jurisdiction as this would cause a lot of trouble for the system and also for him. So I for one do not find anything wrong with the fact that he goes ahead and acts proactively. We all know how things happen in Pakistan and if all of us make it our habit (which indeed we have) to let the work hang until it is done by the person responsible, than it would never be done. Now the lower Judges are not respected because of this, I guess that is the whole point. To make them realize that they are not being respected for not doing their job.

CJP never sent police officers behind the bars: A justice can only give a ruling and CJP has given rulings several times against the inefficient Police officers (for which several members have condemned him as well). However, it is the job of the executive branch of the Government to respect the court orders and execute them. If the executive branch does not cooperate with the judiciary branch, than things do not move forward. That is exactly what has happened between the CJP and the Police department.

Failure of civilian Governments is responsible for Military intervention: First we need to settle what is the meaning of the ‘failure’? In different places or under different circumstances, the standards that determine the pass and fail are different. Expecting kind of democracy or governance of EU and US in Pakistan would be unfair. And the million dollar question is, what Pakistan achieved under the Military dictatorship? Two major wars, one was a stalemate only because the Indians did not want to continue the war, and the other was a full defeat? Separation of the two halves of the country? Drug and illegal arm culture in Pakistan? Religious extremism? Can you hold the civilian governments of Pakistan responsible for any one of these ‘achievements’? You are saying civilians put the military to shame, I do not agree with you. When and how the civilian government put the military to shame? In fact the military has put the civilian governments to shame, did you forget Kargil misadventure?

I agree with you that it is a collective failure of Pakistan ‘civil society but who has given a chance to the civil society to bring about a change? Democracy as we know is a slow and very inefficient process by default, it takes time to take roots and much longer to actually produce the fruit. How long it took for the Europe to come to this point, or America or even India which no matter what it claims is still in the infancy of democracy? But albeit of the failures of their civilian governments, the armed forces always avoided to take the control.

 

[Murshad]

Hi Murshad,

Like a river flows and makes its own course so does a discussion takes its natural course---it will change direction---but will come back.

Have you seen this board lately---wimpy as a diddly doo---

Secondly----with only 34 posts on the board and not one in detail and of an article type---I don't think that you have earned the right to direct the discussion.

Dear MastanKhan

Thanks for reminding me that I have only 34 posts. And I think if some one wants to short and precise you should not be angry. I did not have any intention to direct this discussion. I said this to all friends who believe in mutual respect. I have no intention to earn any right to do so. Majority of the members are very senior and they have commanded respect.

I am wondering what I said, which instigated you so badly that you went through all my posts. I don’t know what kind of physiological complex you have about Nawaz and Zardari. Each time when some one points finger towards “Mr Clean” Mushraff , you shout about Zardari and Nawaz.

Lastly----in order to buy a flat in london---firstly you may direct your inquiries to Zardari, then to Nawaz and in a few days to Musharraf and Shaukat Aziz,.

Any way thanks a lot at least you admitted that Zardari, Nawaz, Shaukat Aziz and Mr Clean are of same category.

Only Nawaz and Zardari have clear edge over”Mr Clean” that both can come in power through legitimate political process and “Mr Clean” is now out of country because of article six of constitution of Pakistan

 

[sob]

Sorry to butt in the discussion, just for academic purposes how much power can Gen. Musharraf consume in a month

Gen (retd) Musharraf’s electricity bill for the month of April for which the reading was done on May 2 shows that despite consuming 5,600 units, his current bill was calculated at Rs 25,841 at the flat rate of Rs 4 per unit.

April would not have been a terribly hot month also. Is this figure of 5600 units correct or is it just a case of inflating the figures to give the article a bit of spice.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi Qsaark,

It should not be difficult to get into a heated debate with me---it gets the best out of both of us as we know of it and also when other parties get into it ,it just opens up new frontiers and different venues.

I have been living in this country for 25 plus years---the first thing I learnt in here was that there was no free lunch---it is your job to complete your assignment---if you can't somebody else will be found to complete it and you will be fired. I also learnt that nobody else has the time to do my job----I am the designated person for my job---my general manager is not going to put on the hat of a salesman or a sales manager to finish my job---end result is termination and being fired from that position asap.

Nobody is expected to finish my job but only me---I personally don't know of any business here in america where someone else would come in to finish your job and you still have that job after a month---if you can't finish your job in a timely manner---the door next to youi has an exit sign written on it.

And it is not working for some small companies---worked as a manager for Autonation, Hendricks automotive group and as sales for norm reeves superstore--at one time number one selling honda dealer in the 'world' the store selling over a thousand cars a month.

As a salesman, I was also the victim of a pre-emptive strike by the general sales manager---first day on the job---first sale I made had a $5000 profit---which meant $1250 commission---the manager called me and told me---I am going to tell this other salesman to deliver this car to the customer---I am also going to split this deal with him---just for showing you how to do your job right, it is going to cost you $650---but I will tell you what---you will never in your life forget to make an incomplete delivery of a new car and will learn to do your job assigned to your in an appropriate manner, and trust me---never ever I forgot to make the right delivery of a new or a used car.

Self grandiosement left aside----consider the CJ as a 50 lb sledge hammer---this 50 lb hammer can put so many strokes on its own---it can not be everywhere---it is also not needed everywhere---some jobs only need a 2 lb hammer for the right stroke---this 2 lb hammer is your local magistrate---now when you strike this same job with a 50 lb hammer---the issue will bend out of shape---it will be pulverized beyond recognition, smashed and be beaten out of its original shape and there will be nothing left of what it was.

Then it is the disrespect factor---when CJ can stick his neck into any issue---who is going to respect the local judges---this man has not done his job---his first goal was to get the judges put in their 8 hour shifts every day and go to work to work---his next job was to send to prison the corrupt judges and make examplary punishments---he had a sob story of not sending the police officers to jail for contempt of court---not one time---gutless---.

For the muslims---democracy is not a hundred year process---rather it is a process completed in days and months---in this day and age---no nation has time for a 100 year democracy---our religion teaches us democracy---we don't have to look too far. Any kind and form of govt we can have---give equality to all and provide expedited justice to the weak and poor and you will automatically have democracy in pakistan---.

Who brags about the islamic history---not india---not america and neither does europe---but only and only pakistan----but nobody wants to remember or acknowledge the basic fundamentals of why people converted to islam.

If the pakistani muslims don't remember then tell them----this is for what the people in arabia converted to islam by prophet Mohammad---justice to the weak and the poor and equality for all---how wrong can you be on that.

Kargil was never a failure---it brought india to the peace table. From being high and mighty,india had to eat the humble pie for a change---so what if there were screw ups---the purpose was well served. As far as the 71 fiasco goes---that was the doing of our dear beloved Z A Bhutto and not the millitary---the millitary did and played the game that Bhutto mapped out for them.

 

[MastanKhan]

Dear MastanKhan

Thanks for reminding me that I have only 34 posts. And I think if some one wants to short and precise you should not be angry. I did not have any intention to direct this discussion. I said this to all friends who believe in mutual respect. I have no intention to earn any right to do so. Majority of the members are very senior and they have commanded respect.

I am wondering what I said, which instigated you so badly that you went through all my posts. I don’t know what kind of physiological complex you have about Nawaz and Zardari. Each time when some one points finger towards “Mr Clean” Mushraff , you shout about Zardari and Nawaz.

Any way thanks a lot at least you admitted that Zardari, Nawaz, Shaukat Aziz and Mr Clean are of same category.

Only Nawaz and Zardari have clear edge over”Mr Clean” that both can come in power through legitimate political process and “Mr Clean” is now out of country because of article six of constitution of Pakistan

Hi Murshad,

I do apologize for my comments---you have every right to make that statement---I am sorry.

A discussion takes its natural course and will move around topics within the frameworks of the arguments---it is but natural.

 

[Xeric]

i though that i should retire from this useless thread but the lovely posts of qsaark and Mk keep bringing me back

Thankyou both of you sirs.

@Qsaark
Among several other things that I like about this wonderful country is the habit of people to finish the job whether it belongs to them or not. Maybe it is a bit different in your profession, but at least in my profession, we do not wait for somebody to do the job, we act proactively and finish the job. It has happened several times that my Professor asked me or others to work on some paper, report or on some presentation but we were not able to finish it in time. He won’t wait for us, realizing that we may be busy in doing other stuff; he would go ahead and finish the job. That way, not only the work is done in time, but he also sets up an example for the rest of us, who are working for him. Next time we do our best to finish something before he steps in to do it by himself.

I have been to the States but never knew that such bhai chara is so common there. I knew that the Americans are known for their charity and philanthropy but I never knew that the Americans also do their jobs on charity basis. What I saw there was that if you don’t do something right your boss has the guts to kick your butt there and then and make you to sit at home, as opposed to what happens in our beloved Pakistan; when you want to kick someone out you would find an 100 men vouching for that a$$hole and ‘begging’ you, sir gareeb ka bacha hai, chotay chotay bachay hai, maaf kar dain ji isko. There is nothing bad in being big hearted and merciful but you must see that at what cost you are trying to become a hero: letting an incapable chap stay at some job, thus allowing a brighter chance for any mishap. In the US if you don’t do your job no one comes and pampers you if your teacher just bluntly failed you, instead he would come and tell, dude you should have done the assignment instead of visiting the prom night! Speaking frankly I have seen father firing sons and children firing grandpas there! And it is only and only because of this materialistic approach that they have been successful. Now I don’t say that one should be hard core materialistic but then we have to keep in mind that the thin line of being inefficient due to inept hirings and making the things work with capable people.

I think dear qsaark you have mixed up the ‘cooperation’ in school/colleges with the actual life.

A justice can only give a ruling and CJP has given rulings several times against the inefficient Police officers (for which several members have condemned him as well). However, it is the job of the executive branch of the Government to respect the court orders and execute them. If the executive branch does not cooperate with the judiciary branch, than things do not move forward. That is exactly what has happened between the CJP and the Police department.

Well that’s something new for me. How can someone rule out the ruling of the SC! It would simply invite more stringent measure from the court and the dude refusing to act would be taken to task ASAP. Yes if someone out maneuvered Mr CJP’s ruling as it was defunct at the first place and was just another act of getting cheaply popular then that would be separate debate.

Kargil was never a failure---it brought india to the peace table. From being high and mighty,india had to eat the humble pie for a change---so what if there were screw ups---the purpose was well served. As far as the 71 fiasco goes---that was the doing of our dear beloved Z A Bhutto and not the millitary---the millitary did and played the game that Bhutto mapped out for them.
Thnx for the clarification MK.
As I have mentioned at various thread on this forum that the aim of Kargil was never to reach Mumbai….it was to send a very strong, clear, concise and lucid signal/message across the border that dude there is no more happy go marry between the two of us and now we too are capable of kicking your ***** at will. And we and you all are quite sure and confident that the message was received very well! Though we all know that it were the Mujahidin who reached the Indian posts when they have vacated them and then after the Indians over-reacted the battle was imposed on our military. (Now no more Kargil ‘debacle’ discussion please, I have had enough of the BS previously!)

MK!

I have been living in this country for 25 plus years---the first thing I learnt in here was that there was no free lunch---it is your job to complete your assignment---if you can't somebody else will be found to complete it and you will be fired. I also learnt that nobody else has the time to do my job----I am the designated person for my job---my general manager is not going to put on the hat of a salesman or a sales manager to finish my job---end result is termination and being fired from that position asap.

Nobody is expected to finish my job but only me---I personally don't know of any business here in america where someone else would come in to finish your job and you still have that job after a month---if you can't finish your job in a timely manner---the door next to you has an exit sign written on it.

Well sir MK, you have just summed up what the Americans are, they are the most capable, dedicated and hard workers and they like to work themselves and make others also work for what they are paid for. They don’t do charity and don’t like excuses. They are just hard task masters and that’s why they are capable of kicking anyone whenever they want!

 

[moha199]

^^^^^^ I totally agree with you sir, You are so right on your points.

 

[qsaark]

Self grandiosement left aside----consider the CJ as a 50 lb sledge hammer---this 50 lb hammer can put so many strokes on its own---it can not be everywhere---it is also not needed everywhere---some jobs only need a 2 lb hammer for the right stroke---this 2 lb hammer is your local magistrate---now when you strike this same job with a 50 lb hammer---the issue will bend out of shape---it will be pulverized beyond recognition, smashed and be beaten out of its original shape and there will be nothing left of what it was.

Please provide me with the report on the actual incident(s) when and where it happened so I can reply to you more objectively.

Then it is the disrespect factor---when CJ can stick his neck into any issue---who is going to respect the local judges---this man has not done his job---his first goal was to get the judges put in their 8 hour shifts every day and go to work to work---his next job was to send to prison the corrupt judges and make examplary punishments---he had a sob story of not sending the police officers to jail for contempt of court---not one time---gutless---.

Again a reference of the case(s) is needed to reply to you more objectively.

For the muslims---democracy is not a hundred year process---rather it is a process completed in days and months---in this day and age---no nation has time for a 100 year democracy---our religion teaches us democracy---we don't have to look too far. Any kind and form of govt we can have---give equality to all and provide expedited justice to the weak and poor and you will automatically have democracy in pakistan---.

Who brags about the islamic history---not india---not america and neither does europe---but only and only pakistan----but nobody wants to remember or acknowledge the basic fundamentals of why people converted to islam.

If the pakistani muslims don't remember then tell them----this is for what the people in arabia converted to islam by prophet Mohammad---justice to the weak and the poor and equality for all---how wrong can you be on that.

So you think Martial Law or totalitarian rule is democracy. I may be reading different history books which reveal that in the entire history of the Muslims, there has never been any democracy. Even the first 4 caliphs were not elected, Imam Hussein was killed for the same problem, Imam Hassan was sidelined by the Muawiah for the same reason. The entire Umayyad dynasty and after them, the Abbasids, who were democratic? Which of the Muslim rulers were elected or chosen by the Muslims?

Kargil was never a failure---it brought india to the peace table. From being high and mighty,india had to eat the humble pie for a change---so what if there were screw ups---the purpose was well served.

Just one question for those who think Kargil was not a failure. What changed in Kashmir after Kargil? The opposition of General Jamshed Gulzar Kiyani, General Ali Quli Khan, Qaiser Tufail, General Iftikhar Ali Khan, General Majeed Malik for the Kargil plan is on the record. I have read accounts of our able Generals in defense of Operation Gibralter as well, so was that right?

Following is an excerpt from the book “Pakistan’s Drift into Extremism: Allah, the Army, and America’s War on Terror” by Mr Hassan Abbas.

"This operation had been discussed at least twice before in earlier years and turned down both times. General Zia-ul-Haq was the first army chief invited by the Military Operations (MO) directorate to see a presentation on this operation. After sitting through it, he resorted in his most chaste Urdu, which he would normally do only when he wanted to take someone to task. His ensuing conversation with the Director General of Military Operations (DGMO), as narrated by a senior army officer, went somewhat like this:

Zia: When we take Kargil, what do you expect the Indians to do? . . . I mean, don’t you think they will try and recapture it?
DGMO: Yes sir, but we think that the position is impregnable and we can hold it against far superior forces.
Zia: Now that’s very good, but in that case, don’t you think the Indians will go for a limited offensive elsewhere along the line of control, take some of our territory, and use it as a bargaining chip?
DGMO: Yes sir, this is possible, but . . .
Zia: And if they are beaten back there also, don’t you think they will attack across the international frontier, which may lead to a full-scale war?
DGMO: That’s possible, sir.
Zia: So in other words, you have prepared a plan to lead us into a full-scale war with India!

This sardonic observation by Zia ul-Haq caused the demise of the first Kargil proposal. The second time the plan was mooted, it was shot down on the same grounds, that is, it was an easy tactical operation that was untenable in the long run unless Pakistan were prepared to go into a full-scale war with India, in which Kargil would be a secondary objective.

The third and final operational plan for Kargil was put forward by its inspirational father, Lieutenant General Mohammad Aziz Khan, chief of the general staff (CGS).”

As far as the 71 fiasco goes---that was the doing of our dear beloved Z A Bhutto and not the millitary---the millitary did and played the game that Bhutto mapped out for them.

Who was the head of the state? Bhutto or Yahya? Who had the power to invite the leader of the majority party to make the Government? Bhutto or Yahya? Who did military action in East Pakistan? Bhutto or Yahya? Please read the famous Asma Jilani versus state case and try to understand why the Chief Justice of that time had recommended a Court Martial for Yahya Khan. Please go through the Hamood ur Rahman Commission report as well.

 

[SSGPA1]

Gen. Musharraf just proved that he is a great and honest leader.

He thought he was right to have the subsidized cost but as soon as he realized that this is wrong he got that corrected.

Now Ansar Abbasi is jumping up and down saying that now Gen. Musharraf will have to run his property like a farm. If this will be required by law then I am sure that Gen. sahib will meet the minimum requirement set.

There is no scandal here buddy! At least he is better than Zaradri and NS who claim that they are completely honest!!

As for CJP, please see my signature.

 

[qsaark]

Gen. Musharraf just proved that he is a great and honest leader.

He thought he was right to have the subsidized cost but as soon as he realized that this is wrong he got that corrected.

General Musharraf can prove that he is a great and honest leader by correcting his earlier mistakes but Iftikhar Choudhary can not prove himself to be an upright and honest person by correcting his previous mistakes? What a high degree of hypocrisy! Iftikhar Choudhary might have made mistakes like the one you pointed out when he as a bench member gave verdict in favor of the former Dictator, but realizing he made a mistake he changed his line.

 

[SSGPA1]

General Musharraf can prove that he is a great and honest leader by correcting his earlier mistakes but Iftikhar Choudhary can not prove himself to be an upright and honest person by correcting his previous mistakes? What a high degree of hypocrisy! Iftikhar Choudhary might have made mistakes like the one you pointed out when he as a bench member gave verdict in favor of the former Dictator, but realizing he made a mistake he changed his line.

The magnitude of mistakes bother me. One has to correct the subsidy on his residence but other changes the course of this nation.

BTW, I was reading SCoP rules and it shows that judges go on vacation from June 17 till mid September each year.

Do you know if this is correct or not?