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Cant Stop the Madness

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A.Rahman

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Can't Stop the Madness

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High Alert: Pakistani soldiers check the readiness of a
guided-missile launcher.



AUGUST 23-30, 1999 VOL. 154 NO. 7/8


Phil Goodwin--AP


With the downing of a Pakistani military aircraft, familiar accusations fly between New Delhi and Islamabad over who provoked the latest round of tensions on the subcontinent
By MASEEH RAHMAN Kutch




It seems only fitting that hostilities between India and Pakistan should break out in the most inhospitable of settings. In June, the bitter subcontinental enemies clashed in the mountainous moonscape of Kashmir&#39;s Kargil district. Now, they are threatening to do the same in the Rann of Kutch, a vast, salt-soaked wasteland by the Arabian Sea that is the last refuge of Equus hemionus, the untamable wild ***.

Lying mostly below sea level, the 20,000-sq-km badlands separate India&#39;s Gujarat state from Pakistan&#39;s Sind province. A small stretch of the Gujarat-Sind border along an estuary is already hotly disputed, resulting in the frequent arrests of each other&#39;s fishermen. The two sides have fought here twice before--in 1965 and again in 1971. Last week, there was concern that a third clash loomed after an Indian Air Force jet shot down a Pakistan Navy reconnaissance aircraft, killing the five officers and 11 men on board.

As is typical for a dispute between India and Pakistan, the two sides offered dramatically different versions of the incident. Pakistan says the French-made Atlantique--a long-range, twin-engine turboprop aircraft designed for electronic snooping, as well as anti-ship and anti-submarine warfare--was on a routine training mission. It had taken off from the Mehran naval base at 9:15 a.m. on Aug. 10 and disappeared two hours later. Part of the wreckage was discovered in the wasteland 2 km inside Pakistani territory. The downing of the aircraft was "a barbaric act," Prime Minister Mohammed Nawaz Sharif fumed at a service in Mehran honoring the dead airmen. "The aircraft was unarmed, and it had not violated Indian air space."

For its part, New Delhi insisted the plane had been hit while on the Indian side of the border on a spying mission. What&#39;s more, said the Indians, the plane had entered Indian air space on at least eight previous occasions since May, when armed intruders from Pakistan were first detected on the ground in Kargil. The aircraft had managed to slip away after the earlier incursions; this time two Indian Air Force MiG-21 jets succeeded in intercepting it 10 km inside Indian territory. When the MiGs tried to escort it to a nearby base, the Pakistani aircraft turned abruptly and headed back for the border. Some 5 km short of the border, a missile fired by one of the pursuing MiGs hit the port engine of the Atlantique. It was last sighted by Indian radar at 11:23 a.m. as it hurtled back into Pakistan territory. "No training aircraft flies so close to the border," said IAF chief Anil Tipnis. "It was a planned information-gathering mission." Tipnis&#39; men even brought pieces of the downed aircraft for display in New Delhi; Pakistan promptly accused the Indians of stealing from the wreckage site inside Pakistani territory.

Not unlike the barren ridges of Kargil, the badlands of the Rann are suddenly bristling with weaponry and soldiers. The two sides put their forces on high alert, and fighter aircraft aggressively patrolled the skies. Pakistan airlifted a company of commandos, equipped with laser-guided, shoulder-fired, surface-to-air missiles, to the wreckage site. The men dug trenches in the soft earth, and there was talk of war. "We haven&#39;t eaten for 22 hours," said Abdul Razzak, a navy commando. "Food will come, but we will forget everything, food and water, if the fighting starts. We&#39;re ready for a war." The mood was even more ominous back at the Mehran naval base. Said a Pakistan Navy officer: "The government is acting like a eunuch. We should kill 300 Indians against our 16." An Indian MiG-21 jet and an Mi-17 helicopter were shot down in Kargil at the end of May, killing five airmen. More than two months later, the scoreboard has changed with the downing of the Atlantique. But the game may not be over yet.

Even those watching from the sidelines can be jolted by the rivalry, as a group of journalists from Indian and international media discovered last Wednesday. They were flying to a waterlogged area of the Rann, where, according to the Indian side, some of the debris from the Pakistani plane had fallen. The IAF helicopter carrying them was still 4 km from the border when it suddenly banked steeply to the left, losing height rapidly. The pilot claimed he had spotted a plume of smoke from a surface-to-air missile that had exploded, he said, about 400 m ahead. The helicopter and two others following it were ordered back to their base. Had a missile been fired by one of the angry commandos lying in wait on the Pakistani side of the border? Again, the two sides disagreed, with Pakistan insisting that the missile was fired not at the helicopter but at an Indian jet fighter, and much earlier in the day.

As temperatures rose in the waterlogged Rann, the rest of the world looked on with a mixture of alarm and resignation. The subcontinent is in a state of "continued high-stakes tension," said U.S. State Department spokesman James Rubin. Washington urged the bellicose neighbors to honor their own 1991 agreement imposing a 10-km-wide no-fly zone for combat aircraft on either side of the border. President Clinton&#39;s quiet diplomacy helped defuse the Kargil crisis last month, but the 52-year-old dispute over Kashmir continues to claim lives. In recent days, an Indian army colonel, a captain and 13 soldiers have been killed in rocket attacks by Pakistan-backed insurgents on military camps there.

To complicate matters further, India is gearing up for a general election next month. National security is an important plank for the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party, so the downing of the Pakistani aircraft will only help Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee&#39;s prospects. More difficult to ascertain is the impact of the incident in Islamabad, where Nawaz Sharif faces increasing pressure from the military and rightwing radicals to exact revenge. His response to this challenge will determine what happens next on the subcontinent.

With reporting by Ghulam Hasnain/Mehran

Source: TIME Magzine
 
Not unlike the barren ridges of Kargil, the badlands of the Rann are suddenly bristling with weaponry and soldiers. The two sides put their forces on high alert, and fighter aircraft aggressively patrolled the skies. Pakistan airlifted a company of commandos, equipped with laser-guided, shoulder-fired, surface-to-air missiles, to the wreckage site. The men dug trenches in the soft earth, and there was talk of war. "We haven&#39;t eaten for 22 hours," said Abdul Razzak, a navy commando. "Food will come, but we will forget everything, food and water, if the fighting starts. We&#39;re ready for a war." The mood was even more ominous back at the Mehran naval base. Said a Pakistan Navy officer: "The government is acting like a eunuch. We should kill 300 Indians against our 16." An Indian MiG-21 jet and an Mi-17 helicopter were shot down in Kargil at the end of May, killing five airmen. More than two months later, the scoreboard has changed with the downing of the Atlantique. But the game may not be over yet.

Interesting.

Miro
 
The most interesting this is that those Indian pilots who shotdown the unarmed Pakistani aircraft also died shortly after of some causes.
 
The most interesting this is that those Indian pilots who shotdown the unarmed Pakistani aircraft also died shortly after of some causes.

:) can u give a link to prove it thanks
 
Originally posted by VisionHawk@Nov 25 2005, 03:01 PM
:)  can u give a link to prove it thanks
[post=3663]Quoted post[/post]​

No he can&#39;t.

But if you wish, I will give you the link that they are alive and serving the nation happily.

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Sqn Ldr P.K. Bundela (left) of No.45 Squadron and fg. Off. S. Narayanan (right) at a press conference after the incident. Sqn. Ldr. Bundela fired the R-60 missile that downed the Atlantique.

Also I would like to mention further that Sqn Ldr P K Bundela and Wg Cdr V S Sharma (ATC Nalia - Fighter controller of the Interception) were awarded with Vayu Sena Medal in the year 2000 for their achievements and services for the nation in this incedent.

Thanks,

Miro
 
Also I would like to mention further that Sqn Ldr P K Bundela and Wg Cdr V S Sharma (ATC Nalia - Fighter controller of the Interception) were awarded with Vayu Sena Medal in the year 2000 for their achievements and services for the nation in this incedent.

given vayu sinha for drowning an unarmed aircraft with in pakistani territory which was just patrolling and was not armed :p: :lol:
 
an unarmed aircraft with in pakistani territory

well its not a big matter because pakistan also drowned some of the indain helis in 1999 in kargil war pak drowned 14 indian helis which includes chetak and some Mi helis 11 were drowned with in pakistani territory and the other 3 in the indian beside this pak also drowned 2 indian migs which also includes one mig-29 all the credit goes to PAKISTAN AIR DEFENCE UNIT IR SAM Nickname The Mohammedens for shooting them down their wreckege can still be seen with in the unit musaeum the unit has also been recenetly equipped by american Green berrie missles which upgraded its capabillity its batteries are deployed in kashmir and other areas the unit have also been awarded 9 HILLALE JURAT for their outstanding reputition and performance for the mother land :PakistanFlag:
 
Originally posted by VisionHawk@Nov 26 2005, 05:52 PM
given vayu sinha for drowning an unarmed aircraft with in pakistani territory which was just patrolling and was not armed :p: :lol:
[post=3752]Quoted post[/post]​
Atlantique was unarmed that dosent allows it to intrude into the Indian Airspace by breaking all the international laws and agreements between India and Pakistan and do spying.

THE ATLANTIQUE INCIDENT

On 10 Aug 99 at 10:51 hrs IST an IAF ground radar picked up an aircraft track inside Sind region of Pakistan near Badin, approaching the Indo-Pakistan international border (IB) on a South-Easterly course. The track was moving at a speed of 370 kmph maintaining a height of 3000-3500 feet. It first touched the international border (at point 68 degree 48 min E, 24 degrees 18 min North) at 10:54 hrs. For the next 17-18 minutes it carried out a series of manoueveres over this area. (In this process, the track stayed within or close to 10 km of the boundary.

The 1991 air agreement between India and Pakistan requires all aircraft (other than helicopters) of the two countries to maintain a minimum distance of 10 km from the border; on two occasions the PN Atlantique actually violated Indian airspace at two points.

Two MiG-21 fighter interceptors of No.45 Squadron, which were on operational readiness at the IAF base at Naliya in Kutch, were brought to a higher state of scramble alert as the track approached the IB. When the track crossed the international border the first time at approximately 10:57 hrs, both the interceptors were scrambled, getting airborne at 10:59 hrs.

The fighter controller of the ground radar vectored the fighters in a Northerly direction, to bring them in the general area at approximately 11:10 hrs (see map above). By 11:12 hrs, the bogey (unidentified Pakistani track) proceeded initially west, subsequently turning and heading south till the IB (at point 68º 32 min East, 23º 58 min North), then turning onto a westerly heading initially. At this time, the IAF interceptors were also directed southwards by the radar controller and generally kept abreast of the bogey, keeping on the Indian side of the IB.

The bogey turned south once again and entered Indian airspace for the third time at approximately 11:14 hrs and penetrated 10 km into Indian territory before turning on an easterly heading. At this stage, the fighter controller maneuvered the IAF MiG-21s so as to place the lead aircraft flown by Sqn. Ldr. P.K. Bundela between the border and the intruder (to stop the intruder from escaping) and the wingman fg. Off. S. Narayanan was accelerated and brought behind the unknown intruder from the other side in a pincer movement.

Sqn. Ldr. Bundela made radar contact between 10-15 km range with the intruder. Both interceptors visually sighted the intruder and identified it as an Atlantique of the Pakistani Navy. Sqn. Ldr. Bundela closed in to 300 meters of the Atlantique, on his left, intending to formate on him and signal him visually and, if possible, communicate with him on radio to direct him to land at the nearest IAF base.

By now, of course, both interceptors had not only identified the intruder as an Atlantique but visually seen its identification markings. As Sqn. Ldr. Bundela was jockeying into position, the Atlantique turned into him in an aggressive evasive attempt. This was a hostile act. As per international norms he ought to have maintained his course and height and in fact lowered his under-carriage as a sign of submission as per the Rules of Engagement.

The Atlantique had earlier been declared hostile after it had been identified, as the Atlantique falls into the category of "hostile" as per established procedure. A hostile aircraft does not have the option to return home; he has only two options - follow instructions to forceland at an IAF base, or be shot down. When the intruder turned into Sqn. Ldr. Bundela in an obvious attempt to throw him off and make a dash for the border, on clearance from the fighter controller Sqn Ldr Bundela maneuvered his fighter for a missile launch on the PN Atlantique to prevent him escaping.

On being cleared to fire by the ground radar, the Sqn. Ldr. Bundela fired an R-60 air-to-air infra-red heat-seeking missile at the Atnalantique. The missile hit the intruder on the left engine which immediately caught fire and started smoking. This happened at approximately 11:17 hrs when the Atlantique was still 5 Km South of the IB on the Indian side.

The interceptors were immediately ordered to break away to the right to ensure that they stayed within Indian territory. The Atlantique after being shot continued to be seen on IAF ground radars. It entered a loose descending spiral turn to the left, burning fiercely with wreckage falling off; in the process, it described an arc 5 km within Pakistani territory before facing an approximately south-easternly direction again close to the IB before it disappeared from the IAF ground radar screen.

The behavior of the intruder while it was deliberately operating for approximately 18 minutes in the earlier part of the sortie had confirmed that it was neither lost nor violating the border inadvertently. The possibility of it being on a training mission is ruled out beyond all doubt by the profile it followed.

The relevant fact is that the PN Atlantique was military combat aircraft classified as &#39;hostile&#39; deliberately violating Indian airspace on an operational mission. In such a situation, the Rules of Engagement dictate the shooting down of the aircraft after clearance from the controlling radar. In actual fact, the lead IAF interceptor approached it from the front quarters, showing himself plainly and was intending to formate on the Atlantique to be able to communicate with him and get him to land at an Indian airfield. The PN Atlantique did not respond to this, his last option for survival, but instead acted in a hostile manner by turning aggressively into the IAF interceptor. There was no alternative thereafter but to shoot down the Pakistani intruder to prevent it from running away after being caught while on an obvious illegal operational mission in Indian territory.

In the final analysis, the bottom line is..... the IAF acted in a thoroughly professional manner as per the existing Rules of Engagement, even going so far as to give the intruder a chance for survival which was rejected. The IAF continues to maintain its high state of vigilance and is confident in dealing with any future intrusions is an equally firm manner.

From the Official Indian AirForce Website

Thanks,

Miro
 
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A composite map showing the flight paths of the intruder and the
intercepting aircraft. This was released by the Indian Air Force.


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The final moments as the R-60 streaks towards the Atlantique - captured in this still photo taken from the HUD/VTR recording from the MiG-21.


Thanks,

Miro
 
Originally posted by VisionHawk@Nov 26 2005, 06:36 PM
SORRY MIRO SLAV IS RIGHT PAK SHOT A MIG 21 AND A MIG 27
[post=3771]Quoted post[/post]​

I dont lie.

IAF lost....................
MiG-21 over Kargil. Shot by Stinger. Pilot Dead.
MiG-27 Over Pakistan. Shot by PA air defences. Pilot captured later gave back to India.
Mi-17 Helicopter shot down over Kargil by a Stinger. Crew of 4 dead.

Other than these IAF didn&#39;t loose anything in Kargil.

Miro
 
Originally posted by miroslav@Nov 26 2005, 01:08 PM
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A composite map showing the flight paths of the intruder and the
intercepting aircraft. This was released by the Indian Air Force.


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The final moments as the R-60 streaks towards the Atlantique - captured in this still photo taken from the HUD/VTR recording from the MiG-21.
Thanks,

Miro
[post=3757]Quoted post[/post]​

what internation nuetral source made that map??

why, are maps all accurat?? and not false?? cant some one just simply bloody draw lines on a map?

why did the atlantic behave so smoothly in its last moments??? why such a streght line???

your bloody map sais the debris landed on indian soil..why the frell on earth where pakistani men with mistrals there??? why would indian security forces let a foriegn army invade its land? why did the embassadors of the world on the mision to pakistan go into india to view it? india would remain happy if pakistan takes over a terratory of india and shows the world its pakistan?
 
Originally posted by Yahya@Nov 29 2005, 08:03 PM
what internation nuetral source made that map??

why, are maps all accurat?? and not false?? cant some one just simply bloody draw lines on a map?

why did the atlantic behave so smoothly in its last moments??? why such a streght line???

your bloody map sais the debris landed on indian soil..why the frell on earth where pakistani men with mistrals there??? why would indian security forces let a foriegn army invade its land? why did the embassadors of the world on the mision to pakistan go into india to view it? india would remain happy if pakistan takes over a terratory of india and shows the world its pakistan?
[post=4036]Quoted post[/post]​

You and your other countrymen on pak-defence are saying that the IAF intruded into Pakistani airspace and shot down the Atlantique.


So let me ask you something............................

What were the PA/PAF air defences were doing when the MiG-21&#39;s interuded into the PAF airspace??

Those MiG&#39;s flew from Naliya airbase of IAF.

So PAF/PA radars would have picked them up quite early into the Indian Airspace only (Radar Range) and should have known that they are approaching towards the PAF airspace and especially towards the Atlantique.

So why didn&#39;t they warned the unarmed Atlantique??

Why didn&#39;t they called for an backup of Mirages or F-7&#39;s????

As your countrymen on Pak-Defence are convinced that Mirages and F-7&#39;s can eat MiG-21&#39;s anytime.

and most importantly..........................

Why there was no escort to the innocent and unarmed Atlantiuque while it was on the IB????

Ok we were lying. I am also a liar.

Why wouldn&#39;t Pakistan Government released the Radar recordings??? which would have shown the world the incoming bogies into PAF airspace and that would have solved the case.

At the time of funeral of the crew Mr.Sharif (Pakistani PM that time) declared that Pakistan will go to the UN and file a case against India in International Court. He was also suppose to claim the money for the Atlantique.

What happened to that?

Thanks,

Miro

P.S: - and where is BDMILITARY??? who claimed that those IAF pilots died after some time.

VisionHawk where are the photos of the wreckage of IAF MiG-29 whichPAF shot downand which is displayed at some museum????
 
Miro,

Even if the Atantique entered in the Indian Air Space, it was unarmed. Why was it shot down?

Regards,
Ahsan F.
 
Originally posted by WebMaster@Dec 4 2005, 12:54 AM
Miro,

Even if the Atantique entered in the Indian Air Space, it was unarmed. Why was it shot down?

Regards,
Ahsan F.
[post=4312]Quoted post[/post]​

When someone unwanted,unexpected,uninvited comes in it is identify as an intruder.

That plane was warned thrice. After getting declared as hostile it had an option to land on the Indian Airbase.

The captain of the plane decided his and his men&#39;s fate.

Read the posted article by me carefully.

IAF followed all the international and Indo-Pak agreed protocals.

Miro
 
Originally posted by WebMaster@Dec 4 2005, 01:24 AM
Miro,

Even if the Atantique entered in the Indian Air Space, it was unarmed. Why was it shot down?

Regards,
Ahsan F.
[post=4312]Quoted post[/post]​
Technically the Atlantique is:-
- An anti-submarine aircraft and hence can carry 3.5 tons of munitions, and
- it can also be used for recee and surveillance.

One must remember that during the Kargil ops the IAF MiG-21 pilot (Sqn Ldr Ajay Ahuja) who had ejected and fallen near Pakistani Army lines was shot point blank in the head. It looked like an execution to us. Tempers were high the IAF was itching to hit back. It was unfortunate for the 16 PN chaps who did not have a chance.
 

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