Can Pakistan 🇵🇰 Army stay out of politics?

CAN THE MILITARY STAY OUT OF POLITICS?

If the army is, in fact, serious about reshaping its image, it will need to undertake certain reforms.

www.dawn.com

 

[Goenitz]

It seems possible when a strong leader is there, but it shouldn't be due to capacity issues of Pak police, bureaucracy, courts, etc.
Pak will collapse when the army completely alienates as Balochistan and likes will erupt. There is no genuine regional leadership, and all the writ of govt will disappear.
Army has flourished complacent, thug and incompetent police, ACs, DCs, politicians etc. These people have managed society/public with force and money and have no connection with the ground.

 

[TheSolution]

It seems possible when a strong leader is there, but it shouldn't be due to capacity issues of Pak police, bureaucracy, courts, etc.
Pak will collapse when the army completely alienates as Balochistan and likes will erupt. There is no genuine regional leadership, and all the writ of govt will disappear.
Army has flourished complacent, thug and incompetent police, ACs, DCs etc. These people have managed society/public with force and money and have no connection with the ground.

Army should have worked closely with Imran Khan solely due to the national support he had.

Young nations need motivated leaders with a vision, they should've aided him and both should have compromised where required.

Everyone is confused because there is constantly bad news and no one rallying the people as a leader into a positive direction. And Pakistanis are emotional people, they will blame everything that goes wrong on the army from today as they already dislike them and view them as the sole reason for the country's negative traits

 

[VCheng]

That is what makes the army a somewhat functioning institution in this country.

That is the reality, regardless of how one arrives at this conclusion. And therefore, the military towers over everything else in the country, by default, including the Constitution, and hence can and must do everything according to its decisions.

 

[Goenitz]

Young nations need motivated leaders with a vision, they should've aided him and both should have compromised where required

IK was weak and trusted many crooked politicians. So, IK can provide vision and lead and somewhat provide governance but cannot rule.
We are a conformist nation and lack rationality. Hence, the army or power is needed.
Then capacity issues like police lack investigation capabilities, building networks, and so on applied to all the govt departments.
Therefore, IK and army should compromise, and both need each other for Pak.
idk why corruption is a non-issue for the army. IK didn't and won't bulge for that.

 

[TheSolution]

We are a conformist nation and lack rationality. Hence, the army or power is needed.

The army is needed moreso to keep politicians in check, harsh truth is we have many traitors who easily work for our enemies. Imagine army wasn't involved in politics when you have the likes of Mohsin Dawar and his crew running around. They would hand the entire country to Afghanistan if they got the chance.

There are snakes in sheeps clothing that cannot be trusted and that's why the army feels the need to be involved deeply in politics. And it's also why I'm not against it, but I criticise the things they don't do properly.

By introducing proper meritocracy, and choosing people who are truly educated and experienced in their field for important positions, this country would go in the right direction. Just minimise money laundering alongside this.

We have too many low IQ and inexperienced people in positions which they don't deserve to be in. They are incapable of running certain institutions.

 

[Jango]

Pak will collapse when the army completely alienates as Balochistan and likes will erupt. There is no genuine regional leadership, and all the writ of govt will disappear.

You can argue just as well that it is the army that does not let that leadership grow. It is in cahoots with almost every local tribal leader, with Shahzain Bugti and BAP being the primary examples. FC has a stranglehold on all trade and bhatta in the area...

Although the situation in Balochistan is not that simple, but you cannot deny that the current policy of ruling with an iron fist through the sardars is bearing any fruit.

That is the reality, regardless of how one arrives at this conclusion.

I don't think that should be regardless.

If it is BECAUSE of the army that only the army is the functioning institution in the country, then things are amiss. If it is due to other reasons, then you have a case.

Going with a medical analogy, if a virus or ailment is taking over the body due to other reasons such as old age, bad eating habits, smoking, whatever, then you can say bas ab kia kar saktay hain banday ki apni ghalti hai/old age.

But if the bad health and ailment is due to the virus itself, then you have to eliminate the virus, or control it.

Getting my point?

 

[Goenitz]

There are snakes in sheeps clothing that cannot be trusted and that's why the army feels the need to be involved deeply in politics. And it's also why I'm not against it, but I criticise the things they don't do properly.

Yeah bro, security state.

You can argue just as well that it is the army that does not let that leadership grow. It is in cahoots with almost every local tribal leader, with Shahzain Bugti and BAP being the primary examples. FC has a stranglehold on all trade and bhatta in the area...

Although the situation in Balochistan is not that simple, but you cannot deny that the current policy of ruling with an iron fist through the sardars is bearing any fruit.

That is the point. Too many capacity issues. Police cannot save us from Wadera, businessmen, politicians, saradrs, likes of MQM or TLP etc. Nor Judiciary, ACs, DCs, can save the public from them.

The only thing that allows Islamabad to rule in Kuzdar, Bahawalpur, Lahore, Okara, Nowshera, etc is civil bureaucracy (Police and commissioners). If they are weak, the writ is gone, and the army will be needed. The thing is they are kept weak by politicians and the establishment. So, if our amry suddenly disappears (apolitical), chaos follows.

A somewhat similar happened in Libya and Iraq. Once strongman/institute was gone, all hell broke loose.
Therefore, the army in Pak will intervene, covertly/overtly, before it happens.

 

[TheSolution]

That is the point. Too many capacity issues. Police cannot save us from Wadera, businessmen, politicians, saradrs, likes of MQM or TLP etc. Nor Judiciary, ACs, DCs, can save the public from them.

The only thing that allows Islamabad to rule in Kuzdar, Bahawalpur, Lahore, Okara, Nowshera, etc is civil bureaucracy (Police and commissioners). If they are weak, the writ is gone, and the army will be needed. The thing is they are kept weak by politicians and the establishment. So, if our amry suddenly disappears (apolitical), chaos follows.

A somewhat similar happened in Libya and Iraq. Once strongman/institute was gone, all hell broke loose.
Therefore, the army in Pak will intervene, covertly/overtly, before it happens.

Are they kept weak by the establishment to keep the army relevant? Why does the army want to be relevant at such a micro-local level?

Surely it's better if police, etc, are more capable and able to effectively manage the region by themselves with greater authority. Because the army will always be relevant for external enemies and high level terror threats.

 

[Goenitz]

Are they kept weak by the establishment to keep the army relevant? Why does the army want to be rejected at such a micro-local level?

yes, and by politicians. It wasn't enough, so they went after secretaries. Still, not enough, then why not the judiciary. Then they thought of media.
It was a slow process. Civilian bureaucracy gave in to military bureaucracy in 1956. Then step by step, all other departments were compromised. Police was heavily compromised around 85 when transfer and promotion powers were given to politicians. criminals and crooks were inducted to serve the politicians and military.
ACs and DCs powers were reduced. You know Roedad was Karachi commissioner, and he didn't bulge under Ayub's pressure to rig the election.
Judiciary was made obliged 70s onward but mainly after the 90s.

 

[TheSolution]

yes, and by politicians. It wasn't enough, so they went after secretaries. Still, not enough, then why not the judiciary. Then they thought of media.
It was a slow process. Civilian bureaucracy gave in to military bureaucracy in 1956. Then step by step, all other departments were compromised. Police was heavily compromised around 85 when transfer and promotion powers were given to politicians. criminals and crooks were inducted to serve the politicians and military.
ACs and DCs powers were reduced. You know Roedad was Karachi commissioner, and he didn't bulge under Ayub's pressure to rig the election.
Judiciary was made obliged 70s onward but mainly after the 90s.

So it was for deeper control of the institutions, to give the army more power?

But even if they want more decision making control over them, surely you can at least have them be competent at their job?

 

[villageidiot]

Can the Pope stop shitting in the woods? Probably yes, there is indoor plumbing now.
But will he? The jury is still out of that and the jurors are getting phone calls and dirty videos sent to them so don't hold your breath.

@SIPRA

 

[VCheng]

If it is BECAUSE of the army that only the army is the functioning institution in the country, then things are amiss. If it is due to other reasons, then you have a case.

Things are "amiss" according to your definition, since now the situation, regardless of how we arrived here, is clearly that the military will simply not, and can not, allow any competitors to rise that can challenge its supremacy.

You are correct, that is not how things should be, but yet, that is indeed how they are.

Changing this state of affairs is a different debate in which I will refrain from participating at this time, if I may.

 

[Goenitz]

So it was for deeper control of the institutions, to give the army more power?

But even if they want more decision making control over them, surely you can at least have them be competent at their job?

Bro.. An Independent mind can question. A competent mind can create creative ways to challenge authority.
You need submissive, emotional, conformist and heartles people to control others.

 

[RealNapster]

The very least and most urgently required thing the army can do is to at least allow educated and competent high IQ people in important positions!

How can you be involved in every aspect the country and still do a shit job at managing it, you're just making things worse

Then what will army officers class do post retirement ? Set at home ?

It's better to keep millions of inexperienced youth at houses then all knowing officer class of armed forces.

 

[N.Siddiqui]

Pakistan Army got out of East Pakistan politics only when the eastern wing broke away from West Pakistan, and the Army surrendered. This is the only likely scenario.

They will never learn, never retreat and restrospect. It is some intrinsic trait by default.