Can Muslims be Secular Liberal?

[JawadKKhan]

and liberal secular atheist mindset produces the likes of hitler, stalin, mao, bush, trump, obama etc.

LMAO!.. you have mixed completely different mindsets all together under the banner of " liberal secular atheist". I mean that's the level of knowledge and have audacity to speak on such topics ?. That's unimaginable! For example, Bush is not secular. He is religious christian guy. The Nazi Party was a far-right political group. (opposite of secular) Stalin (opposite of secular) ..

To sum it up:

The seculars can never go to extreme views which attracts killings. That is why they are secular.

The secular / liberals are most of the times from left.

Few examples of Right wing groups:
TLP
JUI-F
RSS / BJP
Nazi Party ( of Germany)

They all are same!. They have same mentality, they can have different religions but same mindset.


The left-wing is characterized by an emphasis on "ideas such as freedom, equality, fraternity, rights, progress, reform and internationalism" while the right-wing is characterized by an emphasis on religion, tradition, and nationalism

 

[Patriot forever]

There is only one Islam, one Quran and one Sunnah.

Quran is the instructions and guidance of Allah and Sunnah is how you act on it ( a role model) .

Whatever your actions in this life every deed will be weighed in accordance. The reward and punishment will be eternal (no Lawhore high court or American embassy or Pervaiz hoodboy types on the day of judgment to bail you out).

Liberalism is just a term to glorify dissent to Allah by the people who do not want to follow (or be selective) about Islam which is infact a way of life.

(I am no ideal Muslim by a long margin and I hope I get the strength to become better).

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

The reading on this thread is juvenile... a circular logic that never ends flipping over and over.

Define Liberal?
On it's own what or who is a liberal? It is a very subjective term... one could be liberal on xyz... who or what is a thorough liberal?

Secularism also has different meaning in different places... French Secularism is different say from American... subjective!

One thing true though is that as both are a foreign introduction and ideas with regional and subjective understanding... cannot be considered universal or unique to one place. To each their own.

Yet Islam is very distinct... it is defined... people play with the definition but it exists in black and white!
It says, you can do xyz!!! All you want... in fact every single thing that one assumes makes others so great in your eyes.
BUT,
If, and unless you "attempt" to contain that instinct and perhaps conform to these "RIGID" lines. You "WILL" fail the final judgment.
For many the avenir never comes in this lifetime, in fact, for most it doesn't!!!
It becomes a Lure in itself, hey look... that guy made it through and yet I was privy to his private matters.
Yes that guy did!
By design.
Life goes on.
Except when it ends.

So, yes it is a judgment call.

Choose wisely.

 

[Enigma SIG]

The reading on this thread is juvenile... a circular logic that never ends flipping over and over.

Define Liberal?
On it's own what or who is a liberal? It is a very subjective term... one could be liberal on xyz... who or what is a thorough liberal?

Secularism also has different meaning in different places... French Secularism is different say from American... subjective!

One thing true though is that as both are a foreign introduction and ideas with regional and subjective understanding... cannot be considered universal or unique to one place. To each their own.

Yet Islam is very distinct... it is defined... people play with the definition but it exists in black and white!
It says, you can do xyz!!! All you want... in fact every single thing that one assumes makes others so great in your eyes.
BUT,
If, and unless you "attempt" to contain that instinct and perhaps conform to these "RIGID" lines. You "WILL" fail the final judgment.
For many the avenir never comes in this lifetime, in fact, for most it doesn't!!!
It becomes a Lure in itself, hey look... that guy made it through and yet I was privy to his private matters.
Yes that guy did!
By design.
Life goes on.
Except when it ends.

So, yes it is a judgment call.

Choose wisely.

Concur. The way I perceive it is that Muslim's need to shed the "Dictatorial Muslim" persona. People have never given in to forceful imposition of thoughts. People joined Islam in droves at the time of the Prophet PBUH not because he had mullah's with whips. They joined him because of who he was and what his message embodied.

A cursory look at how Malaysia is a good example, predominantly Muslim but it caters to a global userbase. I don't know of any extremist groups over there but even if they exist they don't make the headlines.

You can be a Muslim, keep it to your family, community etc. The masjid is literally a communal place, with Friday prayers essentially serving as a bond between fellow Muslims.

Live and let live.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

Concur. The way I perceive it is that Muslim's need to shed the "Dictatorial Muslim" persona. People have never given in to forceful imposition of thoughts. People joined Islam in droves at the time of the Prophet PBUH not because he had mullah's with whips. They joined him because of who he was and what his message embodied.

A cursory look at how Malaysia is a good example, predominantly Muslim but it caters to a global userbase. I don't know of any extremist groups over there but even if they exist they don't make the headlines.

You can be a Muslim, keep it to your family, community etc. The masjid is literally a communal place, with Friday prayers essentially serving as a bond between fellow Muslims.

Live and let live.

Conformity though desired, but perfection is not the goal here, an honest attempt and aspiration is...
We can go in depth but that isn't needed, Belief(aqeeda) and practice(Amal) are two separate but conjoined attributes... Belief must manifest in practice, though one may lag...
Build towards it...
One step at a time...
Let your quest manifest in how you improve it for the rest.

Let us not be the judge and the jury.

 

[AZMwi]

LMAO!.. you have mixed completely different mindsets all together under the banner of " liberal secular atheist". I mean that's the level of knowledge and have audacity to speak on such topics ?. That's unimaginable! For example, Bush is not secular. He is religious christian guy. The Nazi Party was a far-right political group. (opposite of secular) Stalin (opposite of secular) ..

To sum it up:

The seculars can never go to extreme views which attracts killings. That is why they are secular.

The secular / liberals are most of the times from left.

Few examples of Right wing groups:
TLP
JUI-F
RSS / BJP
Nazi Party ( of Germany)

They all are same!. They have same mentality, they can have different religions but same mindset.


The left-wing is characterized by an emphasis on "ideas such as freedom, equality, fraternity, rights, progress, reform and internationalism" while the right-wing is characterized by an emphasis on religion, tradition, and nationalism

irrelevant. lol. refer to the post i was answering to

 

[fisher1]

...

Homosexuality corrupts the whole society, it isn't a crime that doesn't affect others. Look at how faggots in west are adopting children who will be raised with mental illness and corrupt another generation. How they are legalizing faggot marriage. How they are enforcing little children to adopt this and taking them to gay bars. To the person whom this perversion is done, he spreads it to others. Also, this is fornication and zina but even worse, as it is done upon men instead of women.

This is a violation of the fitrah. The violation of the human anatomy. Just read about how faggots are full of worms and AIDS and diseases because they find fun in playing with feces. They degrade themselves to the level of animals who eat feces. They degrade themselves from the honor that Allah has given to mankind.

Anyway, keep believing whatever you want to believe. I will say this, think about the verses in Holy Quran. You are suggesting rights for Qom e Lut(AS), the Qom upon which the punishment of Allah came.

 

[terry5]

I class myself as liberal and secular as I don’t give two farts what anyone does as it has no concern for me . I am not a judge and only one can judge me .
you can wear which you like do which you want but if it contradicts my belief and way of life I will move away from you or you will move away from me free to go no pressure
I pray 5 times daily InshaAllah i try remember the lord morning noon and night and inbeteeen and talk to him and ask him as he is the one lord of the universe
I don’t profiteer off liquor gambling or woman and try live simple content life

but there is a boundary which I keep and stick to in rules actions my culture religion and way of life and like I leave people alone people have to leave me be .
Liberal to me is you treat everyone equal no better no worse . anti capitalist socialism

my brain has better things to do than get caught up in other peoples mix up
All laws and rules are from God
State system not so much for me

 

[dBSPL]

Why does discussion always shift to prostitution, homosexuality, gambling, drugs etc. when secularism is discussed on the forum?

 

[313ghazi]

Why does discussion always shift to prostitution, homosexuality, gambling, drugs etc. when secularism is discussed on the forum?

Because that is all they associate with secularism. There is no understanding of what it is.

There is also a lazy assumption that the state is responsible for policing morality.

 

[dBSPL]

Because that is all they associate with secularism. There is no understanding of what it is.

There is also a lazy assumption that the state is responsible for policing morality.

I live in a secular country and away from all this. I even have the opportunity to keep my entire social network away from them. Likewise, you can reach/find them even in a country with very strict Sharia practices...

 

[HammerHead081]

Homosexuality corrupts the whole society, it isn't a crime that doesn't affect others. Look at how faggots in west are adopting children who will be raised with mental illness and corrupt another generation. How they are legalizing faggot marriage. How they are enforcing little children to adopt this and taking them to gay bars. To the person whom this perversion is done, he spreads it to others. Also, this is fornication and zina but even worse, as it is done upon men instead of women.

This is a violation of the fitrah. The violation of the human anatomy. Just read about how faggots are full of worms and AIDS and diseases because they find fun in playing with feces. They degrade themselves to the level of animals who eat feces. They degrade themselves from the honor that Allah has given to mankind.

Anyway, keep believing whatever you want to believe. I will say this, think about the verses in Holy Quran. You are suggesting rights for Qom e Lut(AS), the Qom upon which the punishment of Allah came.

Again at end giving the example of people of Lut who did far greater crimes than just homosexuality, nice.

Also for your first paragraph, it is no mental illness to think that even the homosexuals deserve to live and dont get killed. I dont from where you heard about the "forcing" stuff because in there liberal society, children are free to do whatever after certain age and before that age they are taught everything.

But yeah go on ahead, if you think people should be killed for having same sex relation then may God give you hidayat.

 

[313ghazi]

I live in a secular country and away from all this. I even have the opportunity to keep my entire social network away from them. Likewise, you can reach/find them even in a country with very strict Sharia practices...

Exactly. I live in a secular country where all sorts of immorality is promoted, i self govern my morality. Unfortunately our people are so used to dictatorship and our understanding of religion has been so twisted by the self promoting mullah, that we think that we need others to govern morality for us.

Muslims can live with no problem in a secular country.
Muslim majority countries can have secular governments.

Now i don't think Muslim countries should be secular. The head of state of Muslim countries has an Islamic duty to implement certain Islamic principles which benefit society. We understand this in the same way that ANY head of state has the responsbility to implement general principles which benefit society. A common and most important example is law and order. However the line must be drawn at moral policing of individuals.

Where that line is drawn is subject to debate all over the world in all sorts of societies.

All societies have a definition of what is morally acceptable and what is legally acceptable, often these cross over. The amount of cross over varies, the definition of morality and legality varies too.

In Islam we have a definite source of morality and legality (relatively speaking). In some aspects there is scope for revision, or difference of opinion, but its more limited than in secular societies.

However I think our "religious community" generally tend to be ultra conservative, bigoted and unwilling to consider differences of opinion. This is because amongst these people, the tradition of scholars has finished and they pay lip service to it. Of course there are esteemed exceptions.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

Because that is all they associate with secularism. There is no understanding of what it is.

There is also a lazy assumption that the state is responsible for policing morality.

Interesting point you make... and yes it does.

By allowing or disallowing gambling, drugs, alcohol, pornography, theft(what or how much will be considered a prosecutable offense), sexuality, personal space, ownership etc.

Thing is human societies have worked on concensus and precedence. What has shifted is the theoretical part... people who were ruled or just imported values that were not grounded. It becomes a cesspool and chaos reigns... what looks beautiful somewhere doesn't harmonize elsewhere ...

Besides, who decides?

Are there universal values?

Can they be amended?

Who/what is the fountainhead of such values?

Should one really be weighing ones Islam on how Liberal/secular that person is?

Would people assume for a minute that the ease of acceptance on Western values is perhaps based on some assumptions...
how that person was raised... perhaps a conducive environment... optics...
confirmation/affirmation bias?

A spectrum works... it's selling point is optics.

So, when state or someone tells you to be tolerant of xyz... is it making concensus on your behalf or shoving tolerance down your throat because certainly it isn't the other way around... the state is perhaps not "tolerating" an existing structure or concensus.
At what point do people speak up and say enough?
When corporations run social themes and push boundaries of acceptance and tolerance... silence is accepted as affirmation.

For the past couple of centuries where cultural discourse is led by corporations and affirmed by states, who can say no?
You don't have an equal say or rights.

Values are governed!!!

 

[313ghazi]

Interesting point you make... and yes it does.

By allowing or disallowing gambling, drugs, alcohol, pornography, theft(what or how much will be considered a prosecutable offense), sexuality, personal space, ownership etc.

Thing is human societies have worked on concensus and precedence. What has shifted is the theoretical part... people who were ruled or just imported values that were not grounded. It becomes a cesspool and chaos reigns... what looks beautiful somewhere doesn't harmonize elsewhere ...

Besides, who decides?

Are there universal values?

Can they be amended?

Who/what is the fountainhead of such values?

Should one really be weighing ones Islam on how Liberal/secular that person is?

Would people assume for a minute that the ease of acceptance on Western values is perhaps based on some assumptions...
how that was raised... perhaps a conducive environment... optics...
confirmation/affirmation bias?

A spectrum works... it's selling point is optics.

So, when state or someone tells you to be tolerant of xyz... is it making concensus on your behalf or shoving tolerance down your throat because certainly it isn't the other way around... the state is perhaps not "tolerating" an existing structure or concensus.
At what point do people speak up and say enough?
When corporations run social themes and push boundaries of acceptance and tolerance... silence is accepted as affirmation.

For the past couple of centuries where cultural discourse is led by corporations and affirmed by states, who can say no?
You don't have an equal say or rights.

Values are governed!!!

Read my post just above yours, it explains my thoughts in a bit more detail.