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Britain seethes, Germany sulks, and France gloats

Developereo

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EU pushes ahead with fiscal union, UK isolated

December 10, 2011 - 8:06AM

Europe has secured an historic agreement to draft a new treaty for deeper economic integration in the euro zone, but Britain, the region's third largest economy, refused to join the other 26 countries in a fiscal union and was left isolated.

The outcome of a two-day European Union summit left financial markets uncertain whether and when more decisive action would be taken to stem a debt crisis that began in Greece in 2009, spread to Portugal, Ireland, Italy and Spain and now threatens France and even economic powerhouse Germany.

A new treaty could take three months to negotiate and may require loseable referendums in countries such as Ireland. While nine non-euro-zone countries said they would join the euro zone in backing it, there were quickly notes of caution from some corners, including the Czech Republic and Hungary.

Two ECB sources told Reuters the European Central Bank would keep purchases of euro zone government bonds capped for now and take no extra firefighting action. Debt markets were wary. Interbank lending rates eased but Italian 10-year bond yields rose to around 6.5 per cent.

Under the new treaty plan, the leaders agreed to pursue a tougher budget discipline regime with automatic sanctions for deficit sinners in the single currency area, but Britain said it could not accept the proposed treaty amendments after failing to secure concessions for itself on financial regulation.

"This is a breakthrough to a union of stability," German Chancellor Angela Merkel said. "We will use the crisis as a chance for a new beginning."

After 10 hours of talks that ran into the early hours of Friday, Britain found itself without any allies around the table, diplomats said. All the other nine non-euro states said they wanted to take part in the fiscal union process, subject to parliamentary approval.

"Once Cameron said for sure he wasn't in, it only took minutes for the other 26 to agree that they would push ahead with an intergovernmental treaty," one senior official involved in the discussions told reporters.

The rift, which could widen into a permanent divide between London and the continental mainland, occurred 20 years to the day after European leaders agreed at the Maastricht summit to create the single currency, with Britain opting to stay out.

Prime Minister David Cameron insisted at a news conference that it remained in Britain's interest to stay in the EU and take advantage of its single market.

One senior EU diplomat called Cameron's negotiating tactics "clumsy". Among other things, he had sought a veto on a proposed financial transaction tax, which may now be voted through by a majority over the objections of London's financial centre.

No big bazooka

ECB President Mario Draghi called the EU's decision a step forward for the stricter budget rules he has said are necessary for the euro zone to emerge stronger from the turmoil.

"It's going to be the basis for a good fiscal compact and more discipline in economic policy in the euro area members," Draghi said. "We came to conclusions that will have to be fleshed out more in the coming days."

Two ECB sources said the bank's governing council decided on Thursday to keep bond buying limited to around 20 billion euros a week and there was no need to review the decision in the light of the summit outcome.

"You will see some further purchases but not the huge bazooka that some people in the markets and the media are awaiting," one central banker said on condition of anonymity.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy told reporters the ECB's move to provide unlimited three-year funds to cash-starved European banks would be more effective, by enabling them to continue buying government bonds.

"This means that each state can turn to its banks, which will have liquidity at their disposal," he said.

Analysts said the notion that commercial banks could step up their purchases of government bonds looked optimistic given the same banks are being asked to deleverage and recapitalise.

"The lesson for banks from the stress tests was don't buy Italian bonds," said Berenberg bank economist Holger Schieding. "Buying Italian bonds is probably the last thing banks will do with this extra liquidity."

'Seethes, sulks, gloats'

Merkel said the world would see that Europe had learned from its mistakes and avoided "lousy compromise".

Sarkozy sounded elated at having united a big group around the euro zone as the EU's core, long a French objective, and many diplomats perceived France as being the big winner.

"This is a summit that will go down in history," he said. "We would have preferred a reform of the treaties among 27. That wasn't possible given the position of our British friends. And so it will be through an intergovernmental treaty of 17, but open to others."

One EU diplomat summed up the outcome as: "Britain seethes, Germany sulks, and France gloats."

Active ECB support will be vital in the coming days with markets doubting the strength of Europe's financial firewalls to protect vulnerable economies such as Italy and Spain, which have to roll over hundreds of billions of euros in debt next year.

Traders said the ECB bought Italian bonds on Friday to steady markets.

The euro rallied in Europe and US shares gained, but analysts said the summit had done little to convince markets that a solution to the crisis was at hand.

Asked if the euro was safe now, Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said: "I'm not sure."

Britain outside?

Britain refused to allow its partners to amend the EU treaty, demanding guarantees in a protocol protecting its financial services industry, roughly one-tenth of the country's economy. Sarkozy described Cameron's demand as unacceptable.

Cameron hinted London may now try to prevent the others from using the executive European Commission and the European Court of Justice, saying: "Clearly the institutions of the European Union belong to the European Union, they belong to the 27."

But European Council President Herman Van Rompuy, who chaired the summit, said the EU institutions would be fully involved in the new treaty, which would be signed in early March at the latest. The euro zone plus nine may hold a summit without Britain as early as January, diplomats said.

The rift may increase pressure from Eurosceptics within Cameron's Conservative party and outside it for Britain to hold a referendum on leaving the EU, which it joined in 1973. The prime minister strongly opposes such a course, which he has said would be disastrous for British interests.

Britain conducts more than half of its trade within the EU and could suffer on a broad range of financial regulation issues if the other countries decided to move forward as 26.

Van Rompuy said the summit's key achievement was to tighten fiscal limits, including the need for countries to bring budgets close to balance.

"It means reinforcing our rules on excessive deficit procedures by making them more automatic. It also means that member states would have to submit their draft budgetary plans to the (European) Commission," Van Rompuy said.

But a new treaty will take weeks of wrangling as countries like Finland and Slovakia oppose a Franco-German drive to take decisions on future bailouts by an 85 percent supermajority to avoid being taken hostage by a single small country.

Last-chance saloon?

In a meeting billed by some as a last chance to save the euro, the leaders also took several decisions on the permanent bailout fund, the European Stability Mechanism, which will come into force a year early in July 2012.

The ESM's capacity will be capped at 500 billion euros ($650 billion), less than had been suggested was possible before the summit, and the facility will not get a banking licence, as Van Rompuy originally had proposed, due to German opposition.

It also was agreed that EU countries would provide up to 200 billion euros in bilateral loans to the International Monetary Fund (IMF) to help it tackle the crisis, with 150 billion euros of the total coming from the euro zone countries.

Cameron's decision to stay out of the treaty-change camp could spell problems for Britain. Deeper integration on the continent could involve changes to the single market and financial regulation, both of which could have a profound impact on the British economy.

"Cameron was clumsy in his manoeuvring," a senior EU diplomat said. It may be possible that Britain will shift its position in the days ahead if it discovers that isolation really is not a viable course of action, diplomats said.

Reuters
 
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I was surprised that there were no threads on this issue. This is a big issue for the global economy.

Anyway, the future of the Euro does look quite bleak from this point. 17 countries in the Eurozone, all forced to accept the same monetary policy... regardless of whether they are trade-surplus nations like Germany, or debt-ridden nations like Italy. That is a recipe for big problems in the future.

The Eurosceptics in Britain (like Cameron) must feel vindicated when they see the current problems of the Eurozone. But it is a Pyrrhic victory, since they will suffer along with the rest of them. Despite being outside the common-currency Eurozone, their economy is still very much intergrated with the rest of Europe.
 
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This is just a political statement to calm the markets. The real test will be the per-country referendum to approve the measures. Last time the Greek PM backed down from a referendum because it was too politically risky.

German taxpayers are already double-minded about having to bail out freeloaders and tax-cheats in these other countries. Let's just wait and see.

Most people in Europe would be strongly in favor of the EU because of the obvious benefits. However, they now have to face up to the costs of that union also.
 
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Germany prepares for 'inevitable' Greek crash

Bruno Waterfield, Brussels
February 20, 2012

PLANS for Greece to default, potentially leaving the euro, have been drafted in Germany as the European Union faces up to the fact that Greek debt is spiralling out of control, with or without a second bailout.

The German finance ministry is pushing for Greece to declare itself bankrupt and to agree to a ''haircut'' on the bulk of its debts held by banks, a move that would be classed as a default by financial markets.

Euro zone finance ministers meet today to approve the next tranche of loans from the EU and the International Monetary Fund, designed to stave off national bankruptcy while the new Greek government puts the country's finances in order. But the severe austerity measures being demanded have caused such fury in Greece, and the cuts required are so deep, that German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schauble does not believe that any government would be able to implement them.

His pessimism has been tipped into despair with a secret report by the European Commission, European Central Bank and IMF that says even if Greece made good on its promises, it would not be enough to reach the target of bringing total debt to 120 per cent of GDP by 2020.

''He just thinks the Greeks cannot do what needs to be done,'' said a euro zone official. ''And even if by some miracle they did what has been promised, he - and a growing group - are convinced it will not pull Greece out the hole.

''The idea instead is that the Greek government should officially declare itself bankrupt and begin negotiating an even bigger cut with its creditors.

''For Schauble, it is more a question of when, not if.''

Mr Schauble's comments are certain to plunge Athens into deeper gloom. Officials tried to sound optimistic over the weekend, with a cabinet meeting to thrash out the final details of an austerity package.

The cuts sparked rage on the streets of Athens last week, with buildings set on fire.

Mr Schauble's scepticism is not yet fully shared by German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who is said still to be determined to prevent Greece's collapse.

''She thinks Greece going bust could cause a shock wave that buries others - with Spain and Italy among them. It could break apart the entire monetary union,'' said an official.

But it has support from Austria and Finland - holding the prospect that a euro zone meeting today will fail to agree to the next set of EU-IMF payments.

Greece must service €14.5 billion ($A17.8 billion) of debt on March 20 and, before EU-IMF cash can flow into its accounts, persuade private creditors to give up on 70 per cent of their claims.

''The private sector involvement takes at least four weeks to issue the prospectus and to get subscribers, and without a deal on Monday time will run out in March,'' said an EU diplomat.

Rumours are already circulating in Wall Street that banks are preparing for a ''credit event'', meaning a default, in the days after March 20.

But for now the ECB and the EC are lining up with Dr Merkel to push for the rescue attempt to continue.
Mr Schauble maintains that since Greece is already regarded by the financial world as bankrupt, a formal bankruptcy would have no negative consequences for other members of the euro zone.

TELEGRAPH
 
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There has to be some solution for Greece. I think it is best if they move out of the EU and return to Drachma. They were better off outside EU and now see where it has gotten them.
 
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There has to be some solution for Greece. I think it is best if they move out of the EU and return to Drachma. They were better off outside EU and now see where it has gotten them.
it is not what said the prime minister there:
"if Europe doesn't help us, the extremists will win"
 
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thx

did you hear about that story here? :
Par solidarité, je suis Grec aussi.: Germany owes to Greece 575 billion euros from Second World War ? l'Allemagne doit à la Grèce 575 milliards d'euros ?
a hero of the country of Greece, hero of second world war, and hero of resistance against the colonel'dictatorship is following the statement here:
On July 2, 2011, the French economist and consultant to the French government Jacques Delpla stated that Germany owes to Greece 575 billion euros from Second World War obligations (Les Echos, Saturday, July 2, 2011). On September 18, 2011, the German newspaper Die Welt admitted that Germany owes to Greece many billions of euros from obligations arising, at least, from a forcibly obtained loan from Greece during World War II.
and they ask penalties ... lol as revenge from behavior of Germany ;)

Already few days ago it was this:
Greek president criticizes German Finance Minister for "insulting Greece"
Greek president criticizes German Finance Minister for "insulting Greece"
 
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Germany and France are the strongest supporters of Greece in this situation and German taxpayers are already angry. Germany has already forked out billions in WW2 reparations. If the Greeks try to use WW2 guilt on the Germans, it will completely backfire on them and, if Germany abandons Greece, France won't be able to save them.
 
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Germany and France are the strongest supporters of Greece in this situation and German taxpayers are already angry. Germany has already forked out billions in WW2 reparations. If the Greeks try to use WW2 guilt on the Germans, it will completely backfire on them and, if Germany abandons Greece, France won't be able to save them.
They all think they don't have the choice but to give a picture of a strong Europe.

By the way, no Germany didn't pay : Greece paid a high price of war losts
13% of population dead, high damages
and you know what? Germany asked Greece during war to pay the cost of occupation !!! 3.5 billions dollars that time !
The cost that Germany never paid is described in an economic article by Jacques Delpla, reputation economist
This is approved by the German side: Dr. Albrecht Ritschl, a famous economy historian, said it and asked German government to more wise with their approach: the article was in Der Spiegel, 21 june 2011
 
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They all think they don't have the choice but to give a picture of a strong Europe.

By the way, no Germany didn't pay : Greece paid a high price of war losts
13% of population dead, high damages
and you know what? Germany asked Greece during war to pay the cost of occupation !!! 3.5 billions dollars that time !
The cost that Germany never paid is described in an economic article by Jacques Delpla, reputation economist
This is approved by the German side: Dr. Albrecht Ritschl, a famous economy historian, said it and asked German government to more wise with their approach: the article was in Der Spiegel, 21 june 2011

I am sure what you, and these economists, are saying is technically correct, but I still think it would be a bad move. It will turn the German public strongly against Greece.
 
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Germany and France are the strongest supporters of Greece in this situation and German taxpayers are already angry. Germany has already forked out billions in WW2 reparations. If the Greeks try to use WW2 guilt on the Germans, it will completely backfire on them and, if Germany abandons Greece, France won't be able to save them.

That's because it's French greedy banks that kept on lending the money even after realizing that Greek have gone beyond the point where they can pay.
 
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That's because it's French greedy banks that kept on lending the money even after realizing that Greek have gone beyond the point where they can pay.

It's beyond financial considerations now. It's about European pride and proving that Europe can stay united through tough times.
 
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That's because it's French greedy banks that kept on lending the money even after realizing that Greek have gone beyond the point where they can pay.
yeah the banks here they are kind of .. bullshit. which country sees a bank that doesn't want invest in economy of the country???
i hear in USA when you need money and you have a project they trust you. here you need money? then proove you already have money. stupid mentality.


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