Bringing Kalash back home

[krash]

They are not different from their chitrali cousins, they look the bloody same, just different dress sense for women, I have been their, it's all myth that they are Greek, I have been to Athens ,kalash look different than those folks and their language is a dardic language ,not a hellenic language. As for DNA evidence , I am not qualified to comment on that either way.

I have been there as well, many times. And they do look different. Nowhere else in those valleys (or anywhere else in our region) do you get such a ratio of blond hair and blue eyes, not even close to it.

One of the DNA studies did make the same mistake as you just did; compared them to the modern day Greeks. It was criticized a lot.

Their language is indeed Dardic and their customs, rituals, etc. are a lot closer to the Indo-Iranian region, however there still remain some similarities in them to ancient Greece proposing some Greek exposure. Furthermore, classification of "Dardic" is more geographical than characteristic. I can tell you this personally too since I am a Kashmiri with massive exposure to Shina, Khowar and Kohistani which are all Dardic languages. This is not to say that languages sharing the same parent language cannot be markedly different as well, e.g. Balti and Tibetan.

What I'm trying to do here is present the arguments and the counter arguments to the Kalasha's own claim of being of Greek descent so that the people reading the thread would have a better idea of the argument instead of just self-baked nonsensical statements such as ArsalanKhan21's. None of what I stated was my own. At least to me, having met them does not qualify one, even remotely, to present a judgement in a matter which overwhelmingly pertains to anthropology and the science of DNA testing (both of which are still battling it out on the subject).

They speak Indo-European language and so they related to all Indo European speakers. I said few Greeks came over in 1980s to teach them Greek and influence with modern Greek culture. You are just another idiot ! These are Dardic speakers not descendents of Alexanders soldiers.

One who resorts to hurling insults when left with nothing else is a very small man indeed and thus beneath me. So, this will be my last reply to you. Apart from what I have stated above, the language classifications do not work as racial classifications. They present geographical and phonetic traits of languages, which can come about due to a thousand different reasons, instead of just hereditary traits which would denote clear ancestry. While most of the Omani population is of Balochi descent their predominant language is Arabic which unlike Balochi (which is also spoken by many of them) is not an Indo-Iranian language. Another example on the opposite end is of the South Americans who now speak south-western European languages while being of predominantly native american descent. You just aren't very well accustomed to academics now are you?

Furthermore, you have now stated three times, like a broken record desperate for someone to pay attention to what its saying, that this claim of the Kalasha being of Greek descent spawned from the Greek visits in the 1980s. I have told you already that their folklore which is hundreds of years old actually claims this and their language which has supposed similarities with ancient Greece is also hundreds of years old. The funny bit is that the Greeks actually visited the Kalasha tribes because of their claim of Greek descent. So kindly refrain from speaking out of your behind and go educate yourself.

ps: Greek and all other Hellenic languages are also Indo-European languages. The word you should have used was Indo-Aryan or Indo-Iranian. Or did you mean that since they do speak an Indo-European language and seeing how ancient Greek is also an Indo-European language then they indeed are related? All you have are nonsensical statements concocted by yourself.

They are pagans and any attempts to convert them into christians or muslims should be prevented. Thats the only way to preserve this ancient culture.

There must be no compulsion in religion either way. Apart from that, evolution is a natural part of any culture. Currently around half of the Kalasha people are Muslim and they do retain most of their culture.

 

[django]

I have been there as well, many times. And they do look different. Nowhere else in those valleys (or anywhere else in our region) do you get such a ratio of blond hair and blue eyes, not even close to it.

One of the DNA studies did make the same mistake as you just did; compared them to the modern day Greeks. It was criticized a lot.

Their language is indeed Dardic and their customs, rituals, etc. are a lot closer to the Indo-Iranian region, however there still remain some similarities in them to ancient Greece proposing some Greek exposure. Furthermore, classification of "Dardic" is more geographical than characteristic. I can tell you this personally too since I am a Kashmiri with massive exposure to Shina, Khowar and Kohistani which are all Dardic languages. This is not to say that languages sharing the same parent language cannot be markedly different as well, e.g. Balti and Tibetan.

What I'm trying to do here is present the arguments and the counter arguments to the Kalasha's own claim of being of Greek descent so that the people reading the thread would have a better idea of the argument instead of just self-baked nonsensical statements such as ArsalanKhan21's. None of what I stated was my own. At least to me, having met them does not qualify one, even remotely, to present a judgement in a matter which overwhelmingly pertains to anthropology and the science of DNA testing (both of which are still battling it out on the subject).



One who resorts to hurling insults when left with nothing else is a very small man indeed and thus beneath me. So, this will be my last reply to you. Apart from what I have stated above, the language classifications do not work as racial classifications. They present geographical and phonetic traits of languages, which can come about due to a thousand different reasons, instead of just hereditary traits which would denote clear ancestry. While most of the Omani population is of Balochi descent their predominant language is Arabic which unlike Balochi (which is also spoken by many of them) is not an Indo-Iranian language. Another example on the opposite end is of the South Americans who now speak south-western European languages while being of predominantly native american descent. You just aren't very well accustomed to academics now are you?

Furthermore, you have now stated three times, like a broken record desperate for someone to pay attention to what its saying, that this claim of the Kalasha being of Greek descent spawned from the Greek visits in the 1980s. I have told you already that their folklore which is hundreds of years old actually claims this and their language which has supposed similarities with ancient Greece is also hundreds of years old. The funny bit is that the Greeks actually visited the Kalasha tribes because of their claim of Greek descent. So kindly refrain from speaking out of your behind and go educate yourself.

ps: Greek and all other Hellenic languages are also Indo-European languages. The word you should have used was Indo-Aryan or Indo-Iranian. Or did you mean that since they do speak an Indo-European language and seeing how ancient Greek is also an Indo-European language then they indeed are related? All you have are nonsensical statements concocted by yourself.



There must be no compulsion in religion either way. Apart from that, evolution is a natural part of any culture. Currently around half of the Kalasha people are Muslim and they do retain most of their culture.

Now where did I say DNA evidence was conclusive, I said nothing of the kind, what I was merely suggesting was that I am not qualified to interpret the results as leading scientists in this field are at odds with each other when it comes to the validity of these tests.
You talk about having been to this area many times, well my dear chap I am sure you may well have observed a high frequency of folks from Chitrali villages and other adjacent non Kalash areas exhibiting blonde/red hair colored eyes. From my observations it was pretty much the same frequency as with the Kalash, I have lots of friends from the Tora Bora area, they too exhibit a high number of blonde/red hair, are you now going to suggest all these groups have Hellenic influence, and to finally cap off my post could you provide evidence ,indeed if you have any, that blond hair was a common trait amongst Alexander's Hoplites.kudos

 

[krash]

Now where did I say DNA evidence was conclusive, I said nothing of the kind, what I was merely suggesting was that I am not qualified to interpret the results as leading scientists in this field are at odds with each other when it comes to the validity of these tests.

You mistook something I said, I never meant anything of the sort. Instead I agree with you on this point. I further extend it saying that the whole argument remains undecided with a plethora of people claiming and supposedly proving the opposites. I further also have already stated that I myself am in no position to declare a verdict in either's case and hence refrain from it. I clarify again that what I have stated is all other people's work to which I hold no opinion since no scientific decision has yet been reached.

ps: The DNA tests are all valid, the contentions are on the conclusions drawn from them.

You talk about having been to this area many times, well my dear chap I am sure you may well have observed a high frequency of folks from Chitrali villages and other adjacent non Kalash areas exhibiting blonde/red hair colored eyes. From my observations it was pretty much the same frequency as with the Kalash, I have lots of friends from the Tora Bora area, they too exhibit a high number of blonde/red hair, are you now going to suggest all these groups have Hellenic influence, and to finally cap off my post could you provide evidence ,indeed if you have any, that blond hair was a common trait amongst Alexander's Hoplites.kudos

First I must explain that I am not a one time tourist. A substantial portion of my life has been spent roaming the valleys and climbing the mountains in our North. This is sort of what people know me on this forum for. But then these are just mere words, like your's, on an anonymous internet forum. So,

It is specifically blue eyes and golden blond hair that has always been of great interest to DNA research due to the hereditary and rare nature of the gene which is responsible for them (remember the whole Nazi thing). Let's get this out there that no other people in Pakistan or the region exhibit the blue eyes and blond hair hereditarily in such a high ratio, except the Kalasha. One-off mutations (like albinism or melanism) are possible but extremely rare. This was exactly the reason for the first DNA researches that were done on them, not that it pointed towards them being european but because having such distinct racial features, in such a small population, which were absent in the ethnic majority surrounding them was interesting in and of itself (I never claimed their higher ratio of blond hair and blue eyes as an indication of them being european, just that it showed that they were different than the surrounding populations, please keep up). This gave rise to 2 possibilities; 1) the Kalasha were aboriginal people now surrounded by originally foreign settlers/invaders or 2) they were outsiders stuck in the middle of the native population. The Kalasha's claim of being Greek only further added spice to the mystery. Search any DNA report on them and you will find all this mentioned. Now keep in mind that these claims in these reports aren't based on the approximate number of people one thinks one saw in a city of 20,000 compared to a total population of 4000 spread out in many villages....if only it was that simple.

All the DNA reports have further confirmed the Kalash of being a distinct ethnicity. The predominant population of the rest of Chitral is Kho (Khowars) and Pushtoons in the larger towns and cities (can you tell the difference between them? Or between the Hazara tribe and the Baltis? Or the Baltis and the Gilgitis?). This isn't even a question being asked by the researchers, its just you. Rosenberg et al. (2006) ran simulations dividing autosomal gene frequencies in selected populations into a given number of clusters. His findings were that the Kalash clusters were nearly unique,

Zooming in the below map will give you a clearer view,

The question isn't even about whether the Kalash are outsiders any more. All the DNA reports (like the one above) have also shown that their population is more aboriginal than anything else. The question which does remain is whether the Kalasha, as per their claims, have any links to the ancient Greeks, any mixing of ancient Greek blood in their lineage, so to speak. On this the jury is still out.



ps: The gene resulting in light colored hair & eyes is thought to have originated in Europe from where it spread and diluted to other parts of the world with migration and then population mixing (some studies although have suggested that it could also have originated independently on several occasions). The 'aryan' people of our region do share DNA links to ancient Europeans denoting ancestry to which their lighter skin, hair and eye colors are also attributed (the people of Afghanistan, Central Asia and our North-West more so than the others). The Kalasha's higher proportion of these traits signified the possibility of a more pronounced exposure to European DNA than the rest. Now add to that the only significant European invasion of the land being Greek and the Kalasha's own claim, one suddenly finds the notion worth investigating. Furthermore, the question is not of how many 'blond greek soldeirs' fathered children in the valley but of the introduction of a stronger/more pure strain of the said gene there, which then could and would have been concentrated or diluted in the successive generations due to inbreeding (which btw is what the Kalasha do). This is genetics101.... Mary Stieber, "The Poetics of Appearance in the Attic Korai", has some research done on the prevalence of blond hair in ancient Greece.

Do you actually have any premise to support your argument except that "I've been there" and that "I saw other people with light colored hair and eyes too"?

In a country where everyone claims Arabian descent, people are surprisingly unwilling to entertain the possibility of the Kalasha's claims

 

[ArsalanKhan21]

I think that the Kalash are Genetic isolate in remote area of Afghanistan and Pakistan. The Greek connection is totally absurd and based on folk tales than on science and histiography.

 

[django]

You mistook something I said, I never meant anything of the sort. Instead I agree with you on this point. I further extend it saying that the whole argument remains undecided with a plethora of people claiming and supposedly proving the opposites. I further also have already stated that I myself am in no position to declare a verdict in either's case and hence refrain from it. I clarify again that what I have stated is all other people's work to which I hold no opinion since no scientific decision has yet been reached.

ps: The DNA tests are all valid, the contentions are on the conclusions drawn from them.



First I must explain that I am not a one time tourist. A substantial portion of my life has been spent roaming the valleys and climbing the mountains in our North. This is sort of what people know me on this forum for. But then these are just mere words, like your's, on an anonymous internet forum. So,

It is specifically blue eyes and golden blond hair that has always been of great interest to DNA research due to the hereditary and rare nature of the gene which is responsible for them (remember the whole Nazi thing). Let's get this out there that no other people in Pakistan or the region exhibit the blue eyes and blond hair hereditarily in such a high ratio, except the Kalasha. One-off mutations (like albinism or melanism) are possible but extremely rare. This was exactly the reason for the first DNA researches that were done on them, not that it pointed towards them being european but because having such distinct racial features, in such a small population, which were absent in the ethnic majority surrounding them was interesting in and of itself (I never claimed their higher ratio of blond hair and blue eyes as an indication of them being european, just that it showed that they were different than the surrounding populations, please keep up). This gave rise to 2 possibilities; 1) the Kalasha were aboriginal people now surrounded by originally foreign settlers/invaders or 2) they were outsiders stuck in the middle of the native population. The Kalasha's claim of being Greek only further added spice to the mystery. Search any DNA report on them and you will find all this mentioned. Now keep in mind that these claims in these reports aren't based on the approximate number of people one thinks one saw in a city of 20,000 compared to a total population of 4000 spread out in many villages....if only it was that simple.

All the DNA reports have further confirmed the Kalash of being a distinct ethnicity. The predominant population of the rest of Chitral is Kho (Khowars) and Pushtoons in the larger towns and cities (can you tell the difference between them? Or between the Hazara tribe and the Baltis? Or the Baltis and the Gilgitis?). This isn't even a question being asked by the researchers, its just you. Rosenberg et al. (2006) ran simulations dividing autosomal gene frequencies in selected populations into a given number of clusters. His findings were that the Kalash clusters were nearly unique,

Zooming in the below map will give you a clearer view,

The question isn't even about whether the Kalash are outsiders any more. All the DNA reports (like the one above) have also shown that their population is more aboriginal than anything else. The question which does remain is whether the Kalasha, as per their claims, have any links to the ancient Greeks, any mixing of ancient Greek blood in their lineage, so to speak. On this the jury is still out.



ps: The gene resulting in light colored hair & eyes is thought to have originated in Europe from where it spread and diluted to other parts of the world with migration and then population mixing (some studies although have suggested that it could also have originated independently on several occasions). The 'aryan' people of our region do share DNA links to ancient Europeans denoting ancestry to which their lighter skin, hair and eye colors are also attributed (the people of Afghanistan, Central Asia and our North-West more so than the others). The Kalasha's higher proportion of these traits signified the possibility of a more pronounced exposure to European DNA than the rest. Now add to that the only significant European invasion of the land being Greek and the Kalasha's own claim, one suddenly finds the notion worth investigating. Furthermore, the question is not of how many 'blond greek soldeirs' fathered children in the valley but of the introduction of a stronger/more pure strain of the said gene there, which then could and would have been concentrated or diluted in the successive generations due to inbreeding (which btw is what the Kalasha do). This is genetics101.... Mary Stieber, "The Poetics of Appearance in the Attic Korai", has some research done on the prevalence of blond hair in ancient Greece.

Do you actually have any premise to support your argument except that "I've been there" and that "I saw other people with light colored hair and eyes too"?

In a country where everyone claims Arabian descent, people are surprisingly unwilling to entertain the possibility of the Kalasha's claims

Neither myself or yourself has any hard evidence to claim with certainty the true origins of Kalash, we can go by our observations, which we can interpret in our own ways, you yourself have admitted that the results of DNA testing are contentious yet you have based your entire post on evidence which you claim to have no opinion on..Remove the so called genetic data and it comes down to what you observed and what I observed.kudos

 

[krash]

Neither myself or yourself has any hard evidence to claim with certainty the true origins of Kalash, we can go by our observations, which we can interpret in our own ways, you yourself have admitted that the results of DNA testing are contentious yet you have based your entire post on evidence which you claim to have no opinion on..Remove the so called genetic data and it comes down to what you observed and what I observed.kudos

What? No...Did you even read what I posted?

You contend that the Kalasha are just like the Kho in different dressing:

They are not different from their chitrali cousins, they look the bloody same, just different dress sense for women

I contend they are not related to Kho, do look different and are a different ethnic group. DNA results and research results , respectively, show indisputably that they are an independent ethnicity and their general appearance is markedly different from the Kho people. There is no uncertainty about it. Conclusion: They are a different ethnic group than the Kho and look different too.


You contend the Kalasha are not linked to Greeks:

I have been their, it's all myth that they are Greek

I contend you cannot say anything about that yet. Some DNA researches say they are, some say they aren't. Conclusion; you cannot say anything about that yet.


You want me to throw away part A of the DNA results which is indisputably correct, shared in all the reports, has no contention, is unanimously accepted by the scientific community because part B of the result which is independent of part A is still being debated on? Why? While we're at it, shall I also throw away every other DNA test ever done as well?

You keep going to your own visual observations while I present you empirical research data done by people who actually know what they are talking about...you couldn't even distinguish between Kho and Kalasha (Don't even get me started on that 'friends from Tora Bora' part)...is it that hard to stop replying when proven wrong?

The latest research is now suggesting the Kalasha to be an ancient tribe from northern Eurasia while others have successfully cross matched the dates of the admixing of European DNA into the Kalasha through statistical analyses with the timeline of Alexander's invasion.....and here you are claiming them to be Kho because to you "they look the bloody same".

 

[Butchcassidy]

You mistook something I said, I never meant anything of the sort. Instead I agree with you on this point. I further extend it saying that the whole argument remains undecided with a plethora of people claiming and supposedly proving the opposites. I further also have already stated that I myself am in no position to declare a verdict in either's case and hence refrain from it. I clarify again that what I have stated is all other people's work to which I hold no opinion since no scientific decision has yet been reached.

ps: The DNA tests are all valid, the contentions are on the conclusions drawn from them.



First I must explain that I am not a one time tourist. A substantial portion of my life has been spent roaming the valleys and climbing the mountains in our North. This is sort of what people know me on this forum for. But then these are just mere words, like your's, on an anonymous internet forum. So,

It is specifically blue eyes and golden blond hair that has always been of great interest to DNA research due to the hereditary and rare nature of the gene which is responsible for them (remember the whole Nazi thing). Let's get this out there that no other people in Pakistan or the region exhibit the blue eyes and blond hair hereditarily in such a high ratio, except the Kalasha. One-off mutations (like albinism or melanism) are possible but extremely rare. This was exactly the reason for the first DNA researches that were done on them, not that it pointed towards them being european but because having such distinct racial features, in such a small population, which were absent in the ethnic majority surrounding them was interesting in and of itself (I never claimed their higher ratio of blond hair and blue eyes as an indication of them being european, just that it showed that they were different than the surrounding populations, please keep up). This gave rise to 2 possibilities; 1) the Kalasha were aboriginal people now surrounded by originally foreign settlers/invaders or 2) they were outsiders stuck in the middle of the native population. The Kalasha's claim of being Greek only further added spice to the mystery. Search any DNA report on them and you will find all this mentioned. Now keep in mind that these claims in these reports aren't based on the approximate number of people one thinks one saw in a city of 20,000 compared to a total population of 4000 spread out in many villages....if only it was that simple.

All the DNA reports have further confirmed the Kalash of being a distinct ethnicity. The predominant population of the rest of Chitral is Kho (Khowars) and Pushtoons in the larger towns and cities (can you tell the difference between them? Or between the Hazara tribe and the Baltis? Or the Baltis and the Gilgitis?). This isn't even a question being asked by the researchers, its just you. Rosenberg et al. (2006) ran simulations dividing autosomal gene frequencies in selected populations into a given number of clusters. His findings were that the Kalash clusters were nearly unique,

Zooming in the below map will give you a clearer view,

The question isn't even about whether the Kalash are outsiders any more. All the DNA reports (like the one above) have also shown that their population is more aboriginal than anything else. The question which does remain is whether the Kalasha, as per their claims, have any links to the ancient Greeks, any mixing of ancient Greek blood in their lineage, so to speak. On this the jury is still out.



ps: The gene resulting in light colored hair & eyes is thought to have originated in Europe from where it spread and diluted to other parts of the world with migration and then population mixing (some studies although have suggested that it could also have originated independently on several occasions). The 'aryan' people of our region do share DNA links to ancient Europeans denoting ancestry to which their lighter skin, hair and eye colors are also attributed (the people of Afghanistan, Central Asia and our North-West more so than the others). The Kalasha's higher proportion of these traits signified the possibility of a more pronounced exposure to European DNA than the rest. Now add to that the only significant European invasion of the land being Greek and the Kalasha's own claim, one suddenly finds the notion worth investigating. Furthermore, the question is not of how many 'blond greek soldeirs' fathered children in the valley but of the introduction of a stronger/more pure strain of the said gene there, which then could and would have been concentrated or diluted in the successive generations due to inbreeding (which btw is what the Kalasha do). This is genetics101.... Mary Stieber, "The Poetics of Appearance in the Attic Korai", has some research done on the prevalence of blond hair in ancient Greece.

Do you actually have any premise to support your argument except that "I've been there" and that "I saw other people with light colored hair and eyes too"?

In a country where everyone claims Arabian descent, people are surprisingly unwilling to entertain the possibility of the Kalasha's claims

Nice analysis , very thorough

 

[django]

What? No...Did you even read what I posted?

You contend that the Kalasha are just like the Kho in different dressing:


I contend they are not related to Kho, do look different and are a different ethnic group. DNA results and research results , respectively, show indisputably that they are an independent ethnicity and their general appearance is markedly different from the Kho people. There is no uncertainty about it. Conclusion: They are a different ethnic group than the Kho and look different too.


You contend the Kalasha are not linked to Greeks:


I contend you cannot say anything about that yet. Some DNA researches say they are, some say they aren't. Conclusion; you cannot say anything about that yet.


You want me to throw away part A of the DNA results which is indisputably correct, shared in all the reports, has no contention, is unanimously accepted by the scientific community because part B of the result which is independent of part A is still being debated on? Why? While we're at it, shall I also throw away every other DNA test ever done as well?

You keep going to your own visual observations while I present you empirical research data done by people who actually know what they are talking about...you couldn't even distinguish between Kho and Kalasha (Don't even get me started on that 'friends from Tora Bora' part)...is it that hard to stop replying when proven wrong?

The latest research is now suggesting the Kalasha to be an ancient tribe from northern Eurasia while others have successfully cross matched the dates of the admixing of European DNA into the Kalasha through statistical analyses with the timeline of Alexander's invasion.....and here you are claiming them to be Kho because to you "they look the bloody same".

Yes I read your post, full of contradiction
As for the Kho and Kalash, once again you sound like a oxymoron, claiming DNA evidence yet in earlier posts you admit adamantly that it is contentious. You state they look markedly different , I suggest you go an ophthalmologist as you seem to have a severe case of myopia , both the Kho and the Kalash have a very fair olive complexion, hawkish features and dolichocephalic head shape (large and long).
As for your final paragraph, I guess your a bigger oxyMORON than I thought, I suggest you go find another playmate to pester as you and your contradictory drivel has ,well frankly speaking becoming totally and utterly boring and annoying.kudos

 

[krash]

Yes I read your post, full of contradiction
As for the Kho and Kalash, once again you sound like a oxymoron, claiming DNA evidence yet in earlier posts you admit adamantly that it is contentious. You state they look markedly different , I suggest you go an ophthalmologist as you seem to have a severe case of myopia , both the Kho and the Kalash have a very fair olive complexion, hawkish features and dolichocephalic head shape (large and long).
As for your final paragraph, I guess your a bigger oxyMORON than I thought, I suggest you go find another playmate to pester as you and your contradictory drivel has ,well frankly speaking becoming totally and utterly boring and annoying.kudos

You know I was perfectly satisfied with proving you wrong, but this^, this is just icing on the cake. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings this bad....

Anyway, like I said before, one who resorts to hurling insults when left with nothing else is a very small man indeed and thus beneath me....and desperate too.

 

[django]

You know I was perfectly satisfied with proving you wrong, but this^, this is just icing on the cake. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings this bad....

Anyway, like I said before, one who resorts to hurling insults when left with nothing else is a very small man indeed and thus beneath me....and desperate too.

Proving me wrong lol.....you must be hallucinating, the only use your posts/drivel could possibly have is if one patented them as a cure for INSOMNIA.

 

[ghazi52]

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