Blast outside POF

[Logic note]

Martial Law:

And you expect a progressive change from these people?



What hogwash - these people are criminals, not a 'culture', as your apologetics continuously try and cast them as, to somehow paint the GoP's efforts as those against a people, rather than bands of thugs.

The Palestinians have a 'cause', have a legitimate grievance, and even there I condemn the attacks on Israeli civilians, regardless of whose brother or sister was killed under an Israeli bulldozer. Innocent Israeli children in a school bus committed no crime whose punishment was to be attacked by a suicide bomber.

Yes, it is necessary that we sympathize with the plight of the Palestinians, and understand the conditions that drive them to rage so strong that they are willing to commit atrocities, but that does not mean we not act against those who woudl murder and maim civilians, and it does not mean we hide behind platitudes of 'it is a natural reaction', no matter what the West's double standards.

The Pakistani Taliban have not even the nobility of cause that the Palestinians do. Theirs is not a fight against 'occupation', nor a repression - their cause is in fact one of 'occupation and repression', and it is the GoP's responsibility, no matter how immoral the views of the majority of Pakistanis to appease these criminals to save themselves, to fight against the oppression and repression of the Taliban.

Dear AM
Nobality of any cause has to be ethics but then you forget these people have full faith in there cause as it is based on faith and morality (which is diff from ethics ) . they are ready to die for it .
and remember they have been fed on this by GOP to fuel there own purpose of troubling Afghanistan . they were not given any chance of education or self growth .

People are made of emotions to serve and belive ideologies .

and Most important their faith justifies it . they are doing it for faith and shariah ...

 

[Logic note]

Read the question I responded to - I even paraphrased it for Malay in my last response to him if you are incapable fo going back a few pages in the thread.

Post #50

Yes thats what i am saying Am, if you are weak anyone can take advantage .

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Dear AM
Nobality of any cause has to be ethics but then you forget these people have full faith in there cause as it is based on faith and morality (which is diff from ethics ) . they are ready to die for it .
and remember they have been fed on this by GOP to fuel there own purpose of troubling Afghanistan . they were not given any chance of education or self growth .

People are made of emotions to serve and belive ideologies .

and Most important their faith justifies it . they are doing it for faith and shariah ...

They have not been 'fed this by the GoP' - the perversion of Islam that is the Taliban school of thought came about by a unique confluence of events, the foundations of which were laid long before the Soviets invaded Afghanistan.

Absolutely nothing you have said indicates any understanding of how the Taliban came to power, and why the GoP supported them.

The issue is not Islam or sharia, the issue is the perversion of Islam and Shariah, as any ideology can be perverted, by some people.

 

[Logic note]

They have not been 'fed this by the GoP' - the perversion of Islam that is the Taliban school of thought came about by a unique confluence of events, the foundations of which were laid long before the Soviets invaded Afghanistan.

Absolutely nothing you have said indicates any understanding of how the Taliban came to power, and why the GoP supported them.

The issue is not Islam or sharia, the issue is the perversion of Islam and Shariah, as any ideology can be perverted, by some people.

Dear AM

They are fighting to establish Shariah ..which is based on quran and is used to run a society in Saudi Arabia and Iran .
Are you saying that Saudi Arabia and Iran runs on Perversion of Islam ??

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Are you saying that Saudi Arabia and Iran runs on Perversion of Islam ??

In many ways - yes.

Iran perhaps less so, since scientific advancement and learning is encouraged, and more women than men are enrolled in their universities. That is perhaps the reason why a large part of Iran's population is moderate, and given a free and fair political system, would possibly choose reformist candidates who would move Iran further away from the repressive system they have currently.

Most of all, though flawed and controlled, Iran has a political system, whereas SA does not, and the 'perversion of Islam' continues, since the 'perverters' are given carte blanche to do as they will by the Royals, so that their rule is left untouched.

 

[vish]

You completely missed my point - and there is no institutional 'moral support' for the Taliban.

Oh please... you pepped them up in Afghanistan and poked us through these fundamentalists in Kashmir...

Post 9/11, the moment you stopped these... they turned against you.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Oh please... you pepped them up in Afghanistan and poked us through these fundamentalists in Kashmir...

Post 9/11, the moment you stopped these... they turned against you.

The Taliban are not in Kashmir, and my comment was specifically with respect to the Taliban - get your facts right instead of spouting misplaced indignation.

 

[vish]

The Taliban are not in Kashmir, and my comment was specifically with respect to the Taliban - get your facts right instead of spouting misplaced indignation.

Afghan mujahideen were fighting in Kashmir under various names...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Afghan mujahideen were fighting in Kashmir under various names...

The Taliban are not the Afghan Mujahideen necessarily, and all the Afghan Mujahideen did not subscribe to the Taliban's version of Islam.

 

[vish]

The Taliban are not the Afghan Mujahideen necessarily, and all the Afghan Mujahideen did not subscribe to the Taliban's version of Islam.

True... and I see my error. My apologies for the same.

 

[Flintlock]

The Taliban are not the Afghan Mujahideen necessarily, and all the Afghan Mujahideen did not subscribe to the Taliban's version of Islam.

They are not the Taliban, because they are not under the direct control of the organization.

However, they subscribe to exactly the same ideology or interpretation of Islam as the Taliban. During the late 80s and early 90s, when these fighters roamed the streets without fear, they used to routinely impose Islamic dress code and strict moral rules in Kashmir.

 

[Flintlock]

Pakistan bans Taliban after bombing
50 minutes ago

Pakistan has banned the Taliban after the militants claimed responsibility for one of the country's worst suicide bombings.

Interior Ministry chief Rehman Malik announced the decision 24 hours after rejecting a Taliban ceasefire offer in Bajur, a tribal region along the Afghan border where recent fighting has reportedly killed hundreds and prompted more than 200,000 to flee their homes.

He said the militants were "creating mayhem" in the nuclear-armed nation.

The announcement comes as the US carefully watches whether the ruling coalition will collapse due to internal squabbling between the two main parties since they forced Pervez Musharraf to resign as president. Washington views stability in the Muslim nation as key to winning the war on terror.

Malik said the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan, an umbrella militant group, had not been banned before because the provincial government was trying to negotiate with the group.

He noted that despite a peace deal struck with a subset of the group in the Swat Valley, militants kept attacking security forces, burning schools and damaging public buildings.

They also claimed responsibility for a twin suicide bombing that killed 67 people and wounded more than 100 others outside a weapons factory near the capital, Islamabad, on Thursday, calling it revenge for military offensives in Swat, once a tourist destination, and Bajur.

It was the deadliest attack since October, when former prime minister Benazir Bhutto narrowly escaped a double suicide bombing in Karachi that killed about 150 people at a parade welcoming her back from exile. She was killed in a gun and suicide-bomb attack on December 27.

"This organisation is a terrorist organisation and created mayhem against the public life, so we decided to declare it banned," said Malik.

"Anyone having a link with this organisation, promoting its literature and message, helping it financially or in any other way will be taken to task according to the law."

The Press Association: Pakistan bans Taliban after bombing

 

[Contrarian]

In many ways - yes.

Iran perhaps less so, since scientific advancement and learning is encouraged, and more women than men are enrolled in their universities. That is perhaps the reason why a large part of Iran's population is moderate, and given a free and fair political system, would possibly choose reformist candidates who would move Iran further away from the repressive system they have currently.

Most of all, though flawed and controlled, Iran has a political system, whereas SA does not, and the 'perversion of Islam' continues, since the 'perverters' are given carte blanche to do as they will by the Royals, so that their rule is left untouched.

I completely agree mate.

 

[Energon]

Energon . . at least, you are honest about wanting the United States to militarily intervene in Pakistan.

Let me be a bit more clear about this. I don't want anybody to attack or antagonize anyone else; heck what I really want is all of us to get together and smoke a giant peace pipe. But obviously that is not a realistic scenario.

The terrorism emanating from the Pakistan-Afghanistan complex has massive potential consequences for the west. Obviously they are not willing to risk the safety of their own society and have the means to take direct action in the epicenter of said region.

Unfortunately, I do not respect anyone openly advocating the US "War On Terror" by attacking fellow Pakistanis and then offering shallow reassurances that this will be the best guarantee of Pakistani security, integrity and sovereignty.
It is - as you've pointed out - an efficient way to open Pakistani doors to an American military assault upon the state.

This is where we disagree (and I think AgnosticMuslim and I stand on the same side here). The desperate need to eliminate radicalism and militancy in Western Pakistan is first and foremost essential for her own survival and long term outlook; particularly if the people and leaders of Pakistan hope to see their country taking at least some interactive role in global affairs. Also, your last statement is incorrect. By tackling the militants effectively within the borders the probability of a western military involvement is reduced, not increased.

Oh and BTW . . . if America launches a military assault upon Pakistan, it will be the second illegal act of war that the United States has carried out since 2003 . . .

Not if there is an overwhelming consensus in support of this military action.... which it will most probably be.

America is a rogue nation that treats international law with the same respect as Israel does the human rights of Palestinians . . . i.e. zero.

As many of my posts indicate here, I am no fan of the current administration's policies; but at the same time I don't think any one can deny that the USA has also had a long standing tradition of providing significant economic, social and political assistance to many a developed and developing nation (Pakistan being one of them). The objectives behind this assistance may be self serving, and most of the nations have squandered a lot of this money on account of poor accountability within its own corrupt/inept government... but that is a different matter altogether. The point is that this is in no way a one way street. It is very fashionable to point the fingers at the USA or the west and blame them for all the world's ills; but accepting money or other forms of economic and political assistance or seeking an opportunity to migrate somehow never stands in the way, and that is hypocrisy (this applies for all western European nations as well).

Should the United States militarily intervene in Pakistan, I have not the slightest doubt that the Pakistani military and people will unite to fight her and defend the integrity of the country. Then they will take care of the traitors and hypocrites amongst them . . . the civilian political elites and the military top brass.

This is all well and good, but they are likely to lose in a military engagement with the west; and unlike Iraq, I don't think anybody has an interest in actually occupying Pakistan, so the nation will most probably stand destroyed and quarantined, which is something I doubt most Pakistanis desire.

 

[was]

Taliban backed by RAW trained Wah bombers



By Our Correspondent


TAXILA, Aug 25: The two suicide bombers who blew themselves at the Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) gates in Wah Cantonment last week were trained in Miramshah, the main town of North Waziristan Agency, by the Pakistani Taliban allegedly supported by the Indian intelligence agency – Research and Analysis Wing (RAW).

Officials privy to investigations told this reporter on condition of anonymity that the bombers were aged between 17 and 20 and they were natives of Khyber Agency.

According to the officials, the detained would-be suicide bomber, who identified himself as Hameedullah, revealed some stunning facts about the activities and involvement of proxy Taliban in the tribal areas of Pakistan.

Hameedullah described how the Taliban trained and provided arms and ammunition to the militants. They have also hired psychologists who brainwash innocent youth from different seminaries and transform them into hard-line militant or “Fidayeen”.

The officials said Hameedullah was arrested while trying to flee from the scene of the blasts in a taxi. Soon after the incident, law-enforcement agencies seized an explosive-vest that the suspect had left in a toilet at a mosque located close to the POF complex.

During initial interrogation, the man confessed that he wanted to blow himself up at the arms factory but lost heart at the last moment.

The officials declined to give more details because it could affect the ongoing investigation.



“RAW and the Afghan intelligence agencies are very much active in the tribal areas. Several Afghan agents have been arrested and they confessed that they were trained by the Indians in Afghanistan,” the officials said.

“There are more than 10,000 Indian soldiers in Afghanistan, ostensibly to protect engineers involved in road building activities. But, in fact, most of them are spies and there maybe thousands more who are causing carnage in Pakistan” they added.

‘Taliban backed by RAW trained Wah bombers’ -DAWN - National; August 26, 2008