Blast in Pune

[DaRk WaVe]

These Mullahs are NON-STATE ACTORS.

yes they are do you have doubt about it?

I know you people are more emotional but let the investigations be completed

 

[kumar_V1.0]

yes they are do you have doubt about it?

When they are vomiting venom and u let them do that on streets of Lahore , Islamabad and Karachi its no longer.

Then its called proxies & strategic assets.

And wrt investigation I m not blaming Pakistan for this act yet, But the bloody guy said attack Pune Kanpur in lahore under full state security and media scanner and is roaming free and Pune is attacked

 

[DaRk WaVe]

When they are vomiting venom and u let them do that on streets of Lahore , Islamabad and Karachi its no longer.

Then its called proxies & strategic assets

JuD Chief has been subjected to Trail but there is not enough proof to Convict him
& for that Bhaktal story, its more of a story of Jason Bourne I mean he Escaped everything

Let the investigations complete then we can have a mud slinging competition

 

[DaRk WaVe]

Since STATE ACTORS can't fight they need some NON-STATE ACTORS for this.

i can use this same line for India, what are going to say then, our nationals got killed on your soil has India convicted & executed them?
Hold your Mud Slinging & let the investigators do their Job, You ain't achieving anything using this blame game

 

[Icarus]

Since STATE ACTORS can't fight they need some NON-STATE ACTORS for this.

Oh that hurts coming from a guy who's country is arming two insurgencies on Pakistani soil.........................

 

[TechLahore]

There is a difference here. What we say is resounded by the world community, while you stand alone in your claim.

You can definitely find statements by politicians and some government officials about the ISI and links with Taliban and crap of that variety. But then I can quote several instances of politicians and political commentators in other countries blaming India for genocides, occupation of illegal territory and so on. That is not important.

What is important is how different nations shape their policy with respect to your stance and your interests. India wants to use world opinion to isolate Pakistan in meaningful ways - not through mere statements. These 'meaningful' ways would be sanctions, blocking arms supplies, diplomatic boycots, curbs in economic activity, stoppage of project support from institutions like the ADB etc. To give you an example, when China wanted to poke India in the eye, for instance, it used its clout to block billions of $ of assistance to India. That would be a meaningful measure of whether you have the clout to cause other countries or international institutions to fall in line behind you. Statements are a dime a dozen, and political opinions are cheap.

Now, with this in mind, please explain to me how Pakistan has been isolated, or why you think Pakistan's stance is not "believed". If that were the case, would you have:

1. Pakistan still being used as the primary conduit to supply ISAF (Whatever became of those central asian routes? Hmmm.)

2. The Pakistan Army still being called upon to be, alternatively, both the hammer and the anvil to ISAF's forces. Do you have close military coordination with someone you don't "believe" or have truly deep doubts about?

3. Pakistan continues to participate in international military exercises and is constantly invited by western, middle eastern and eastern nations in this regard.

4. Pakistan continues to participate in strong and growing economic partnerships with countries as diverse as the US, China, Iran, Turkey, the EU, Malaysia etc. A lessening of these being totally out of the question, trade, JVs and participation across almost all parameters has been increasing YoY. How can this be looked upon as the world "believing" India in its usually vicious claims about Pakistan?

5. Basically, the entire world looking upon Kashmir as disputed territory. Remember, India's claim is that Kashmir is part of India. Pakistan's claim is that it is disputed territory. You would be hard pressed to find even a third the number of countries in India's camp as would agree with Pakistan's characterization of this issue.

And one can go on at length. But other than meaningless statements which are not reflected in official national policies, what can you point to that would substantiate your rather broad claim?

There is another important difference. India has no intention to harm Pakistan nor any intention to take back P o K by force, which it still claims to be an integral part (please do not confuse the intentions of some hooligans with that of India). Now that may sound odd to some Pakistanis, but there are valid reasons for that. Firstly, it is against India's own interest to destabilize Pakistan. It wants a nation wherein democracy prevails in all strength so that any kind of negotiations on all outstanding issues can be talked through. Secondly, India is focused on issues it should focus on and not on Kashmir.

India, Sir, has taken every opportunity during the last 63 years to destabilize and harm Pakistan. Whether it was refusing to give us our rightful share of resources at the time of partition - particularly military resources - or the refusal to honour UN resolutions prior to any 1965, Simla Accord or other issues, or the support of insurgents and terrorists on Pakistani soil, or diplomatic campaigns against Pakistan, or the nuclearization of South Asia at Pokhran, or the completely unprovoked nuclear tests of 1998, or the assistance to Mukti Bahini during 1971 etc., the crystal clear violation of the IWT (and PLEASE don't ask me "how" - I have replied to this specifically in 3 other threads you can search TechLahore IWT and get the answer) and on and on and on.

I don't wish to debate the above issues with you because I know the gulf is way too wide. I am just telling you that your gracious statement about India meaning no harm to Pakistan when 80% of your army is at our borders, and in the context of the above history, is not going to find sympathetic ears in Pakistan. We have exactly ZERO trust in the Indian government, military and Indian policies. That is just a fact.

Since it was acceded to India, it is legally the part of India. If some people do not find it appropriate they can leave for some other nation. They have every freedom to decide what they want for themselves, however, how is it justified to want what is not theirs? Kashmir belongs to the whole of India and not just to the Kashmiris.

Hyderabad was ruled by a Muslim who wanted to maintain an independent Muslim state. What happened there? India invaded it. That's what happened. Basically, the Indian argument boils down to the theory that any means of India obtaining control of a territory was legal, and everything else was illegal. Muslims were in majority in both Bengal and Punjab (overall), yet those states were divided. Kashmir had a significant muslim majority but ruled by a Hindu, so accession was legal in that case. Hyderabad was hindu majority (though not to the extent that Kashmir was muslim majority) but muslim ruled, so therefore the decision of the Nizam to stay independent had no weight and invasion by India was legal.

Yes indeed. Everything you do is legal. And everything someone else does is illegal. And then you ask why we don't believe your pure intentions viz Pakistan.

Let's just face the facts. Kashmir was captured by India because Nehru was a Hindu Pandit from Kashmir and couldn't live with the thought of giving up his ancestral home. As simple as that. The man couldn't overcome his personal desire for the sake of peace in the sub continent. But then, overcoming personal desires was never a strong suit with him, as Edwina Mountbatten might confirm.

When the time is ripe for that, it will happen. But as ordinary citizens we should understand the implications of war. I would never advocate war unless there is no other option left. And Pakistan's unjustified pursuit for Kashmir are taking us near to that day. Now if citizens of Pakistan see justice in this pursuit, by all means, they should follow their conviction. But I request that you do some considerable introspection because you will end up losing more than you have now.

Pakistan's pursuit of Kashmir is completely justified. Unless India resolves this dispute the sub continent will remain a nuclear flashpoint, both India and Pakistan's progress and standing in the world will remain hostage to this issue and there will be no peace in the mind or on the ground.

As to the "you will lose more than you have", I assure you, if it comes to a full fledged conflict, India will lose exactly as much as Pakistan. And the answer in both cases will be 100%.

I agree but please leave some scope for consideration from the other side's point of view as well. And also weigh your options and the justifications of your pursuit for which this whole game is being played.

I mean no disrespect, but the first sentence above truly made me laugh. After reading your post - entirely from an Indian perspective - you are asking us to consider "the other side's point of view".

Our options are pretty simple. I) We can either give up our legitimate demands and make a forced peace with India until the next issue (water, air, fire - whatever) comes up, II) We can give better than we get and make sure that if there is no resolution and we aren't given what we believe is rightfully ours, then we ensure that India is made to pay a price for its unfairness also. And please. Let's not go down the "terrorism" path here. Afghanistan is one good example of Pakistan using its position to harm and destroy Indian interests without any question of "terrorism" coming up. III) Destroy each other and ensure that not a single soul on either side survives and those that do, pray for their end IV) We can both understand that there will be no long term peace until the core issue of Kashmir is addressed, and then sit down at the table - like President Musharraf and PM Vajpayee did - and hammer out a mutually acceptable solution with both sides considering the other an equal.

So far, all I hear is brain-dead "You are a terrorist! No, you are a terrorist!" sloganeering. Let us see if the future holds something different.

P.S. Thank you for a calm post, it makes discussion easier.

There is nothing to get worked up about. We have been here for thousands of years and are not going anywhere. Kya jaldi hay.

 

[Treatment]

Oh that hurts coming from a guy who's country is arming two insurgencies on Pakistani soil.........................

Arming Two insurgencies on pakistani soil ? or is it a story of terrorists turning against their masters ?

Thats quiet debatable aint ?

 

[Treatment]

i can use this same line for India, what are going to say then, our nationals got killed on your soil has India convicted & executed them?
Hold your Mud Slinging & let the investigators do their Job, You ain't achieving anything using this blame game

State agencies from accross the border have employed these people and paid them handsome salaries for very long time, dont u think its time to do some staff trimming and channel the saved money where its needed the most?

I bet everyone agrees these guys are not doing any favours - instead they are brining more hatred, killings, bombings, sarrow, death & pain on both sides of the border ?

These people are very interested in keeping pakistan in those dark ages while rest of the world progressess to acheive their own agenda which is installing their view on islam (we have seen TTP doing it).

I wont be surprised if you disagreed with me!

 

[Halaku Khan]

Ilyas Kashmiri & 313 Brigade claim credit for Pune terrorism.

Al-Qaeda chief delivers a warning
By Syed Saleem Shahzad

ISLAMABAD - Asia Times Online has received a message from top guerrilla commander Ilyas Kashmiri, whose 313 Brigade is an operational arm of al-Qaeda. The message arrived on Monday morning, shortly after the deadly weekend bombing of the German Bakery in the western Indian city of Pune. The message does not specifically claim responsibility for the bombing, but implies the Brigade's involvement.

The text of the emailed message reads, in rough translation:

“We warned the international community to play their role in getting the Kashmiris their right of self-determination and preventing India from committing brutalities in Kashmir, especially in Badipuar, raping the women and behaving inhumanly with Muslim prisoners.

“We warn the international community not to send their people to the 2010 Hockey World Cup, IPL [Indian Premier League - a cricket competition involving international players] and Commonwealth Games [to be held in Delhi later this year]. Nor should their people visit India - if they do, they will be responsible for the consequences.

"We, the mujahideen of 313 Brigade, vow to continue attacks all across India until the Indian Army leaves Kashmir and gives the Kashmiris their right of self-determination. We assure the Muslims of the subcontinent that we will never forget the massacre of the Muslims in Gujarat and the demolition of Babri Masjid [a Muslim mosque destroyed by Hindu militants in 1992]. The entire Muslim community is one body and we will take revenge for all injustices and tyranny. We again warn the Indian government to compensate for all its injustices, otherwise they will see our next action.

"From 313 Brigade"

The bombing and Kashmiri's warning come as Washington tries to bring India and Pakistan together to work as allies in fighting the "war on terror". The intention seems to be to reignite conflict between the two countries, diverting Pakistan’s attention from Afghanistan and the Pakistani tribal areas and preventing India playing a strategic role.

The Pune bombing killed nine people, including two foreigners, and injured 57. It came a day after India and Pakistan agreed to foreign-secretary-level talks in New Delhi on February 25.

Typically, 313 Brigade does not claim responsibilty for its actions, which are said to include attacks on foreigners in India and Afghanistan and the Mumbai carnage of last November. The Brigade has also been linked to the so-called "Chicago Conspiracy" to massacre Indian military officers, attack the Indian nuclear arsenal, and attack the cartoonists whose anti-Muslim illustrations were published by a Danish newspaper.

It is unprecedented that 313 Brigade should send a message to a news outlet. However, Asia Times Online has previously been in contact with Kashmiri, and interviewed him last October. The interview, conducted in the Pakistani tribal agency of South Waziristan, was arranged by Kashmiri, primarily to discount rumors that he had been killed in a US drone attack. (See Al-Qaeda's guerrilla chief lays out strategy.)

The Indian government said on Monday that there would be no knee-jerk reaction to the Pune bombing and that the talks with Pakistan would go ahead. If more attacks are carried out in India, however, the tension between the countries would soar, and the US-led "war on terror" would be an early casualty.

Syed Saleem Shahzad is Asia Times Online's Pakistan Bureau Chief.

(Copyright 2009 Asia Times Online (Holdings) Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact us about sales, syndication and republishing.)

Asia Times Online :: South Asia news, business and economy from India and Pakistan

 

[Halaku Khan]

The hang-out will not be the same again

Siddhesh Inamdar

At German Bakery, you could mingle with strangers without reservations: Iranian

PUNE: Mariam Abuhaideri, 25, an Iranian national from the United States, hangs outside the Intensive Care Unit of the Inlaks Budhrani Hospital. She is on a two-month visit with her family, none of whom, thankfully, was hurt in Saturday’s blast here. Friends, she has few in Pune. Yet, she is awaiting word on the condition of the patients in the ICU.

“I’m very worried about the workers of the Bakery,” she says. “They knew me very well. I used to visit the Bakery every evening, around the same time the blast took place.” That fateful day, however, she was away at a concert by the Indian rock music band Parikrama.

Pointing out that the Bakery was popular with foreign nationals, Ms. Abuhaideri says: “Foreigners, who love to travel through different countries, are socialites. And German Bakery had the perfect ambience for socialites. Here, you could mingle around and sit at tables with strangers without reservations. That was how I made friends there.”

A hit with locals too

The place was no less loved by the locals. Rakesh Singh, 29, who has been living in Koregaon Park for the past 10 years, says he had breakfast at the Bakery every Sunday. He says the food there was a huge hit with its health-conscious customers. “My favourite was cheese omelette and toast.”

Both Mr. Singh and Ms. Abuhaideri fondly talk about the lip-smacking fresh fruit juices served there.

As Mr. Singh walks past the Osho International Meditation Resort, it is difficult for him not to notice the contrast between the serenity of the densely-wooded, lush green lane and the mayhem caused by the blast just round the corner.

Those who were meditating inside the Resort on Saturday between 6.30 and 8.30 p.m. did not hear the blast at all, as though they were in a world far removed from the scene.

“When the blast happened, thousands of us were meditating,” says Amrit Sadhana, public relations officer of the Resort. “Perhaps it was the meditation that created an aura of security.”

She says security at the Resort was stepped up in October last itself when it was learnt that American terror suspect David Coleman Headley had surveyed the place. Any given time, there are over 1,000 foreigners from over 120 countries at the Resort,

Ms. Abuhaideri speculates that as foreigners at the Resort could not be attacked because of the tight security, the terrorists chose the German Bakery, which was frequented by visitors to the Resort most of the day. But the blast took place at a time when most of them were at the Resort as it was meditation time.

On Valentine’s Day eve, the terrorists snapped the relationship between Pune and its beloved hang-out. “German Bakery will bounce back,” Ms. Abuhaideri says, confidently. “But it won’t be the same again. The World Trade Center wasn’t after [9/11], nor is the Taj [after 26/11].”

----------------------

Five Iranians were injured and one was killed in the attack: List of dead and injured in Pune blast - dnaindia.com

 

[fawwaxs]

 

[fawwaxs]

I am willing to bet its Shev Sena behind this bombing also. Very conveniently just before the two side ministers meet. Has to be the Thakray terrorists

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Just one comment and dont want it to be taken as another salvo in I won, You didn't discussion

In 1965, the aim of Pakistan was to annex Kashmir. India's aim was to ensure Pakistan did not succeed in that. Now I agree that 1965 was a stalemate from a territory perspective, but didnt Pakistan fail in its goals and India succeed..??

Pakistan's goal through Operation Gibralter was to instigate a rebellion in Kashmir - the Operation failed, the infiltrators were found out.

So what did India do next?

P.S: Haven't really read most of the other posts since my last response here, so someone who responded to me may not get ant replies - no time to read all that and respond.

 

[deesu]

I am willing to bet its Shev Sena behind this bombing also. Very conveniently just before the two side ministers meet. Has to be the Thakray terrorists

Another conspiracy theory in the making..... good going

 

[karan.1970]

Pakistan's goal through Operation Gibralter was to instigate a rebellion in Kashmir - the Operation failed, the infiltrators were found out.

So what did India do next?

P.S: Haven't really read most of the other posts since my last response here, so someone who responded to me may not get ant replies - no time to read all that and respond.

As I see it, India opened a front in Punjab (I think) to relieve pressure from Kashmir 1947 style attack. The attempt to repeat 1947 blew up into a full scale war and the original strategic objectives of Pakistan were not met.. Really speaking everything else is not so relavant..


EDIT: May be we can take this to a different thread if required to continue????