Babri Mosque bench judge goes public with dissent note

[temujin]

Your post has more holes than swiss cheese.

Taking wiki excerpts at face value from the page at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_of_Ayodhya

Fallstuff, please stop deliberate obfuscation of facts by quoting various VIs if you want to have a rational debate. That Muslim invaders destroyed religious and cultural motiffs of the indigenous population during various stages of India's history is beyond debate. You do not have to look further than the Qubbat ul Islam (the might of Islam) mosque in Delhi for irrefutable proof of this (inscriptions within the mosque declare that it was built from the remains of 27 temples that were destroyed by QUD Aybak)

http://www.indiasite.com/delhi/places/quwwat-ul-islammasjid.html

The Quwwat-ul-Islam Masjid can be a bewildering experience for those unfamiliar with its history. On one hand there is the beautiful, curvaceous Islamic calligraphy, the arabesque designs and then there are pillars with clearly pre-Islamic Hindu motifs. The reason is of course quite simple; the pillars were taken from the 27 temples of Qila Rai Pithora, the city of the Rajput king Prithviraj Chauhan (see history). This in fact has been recorded by Qutub-ud-din in his inscriptions, who calls it the Jami Masjid (Friday Mosque) in his inscriptions.

Pics of the interior of the mosque

http://media.lonelyplanet.com/lpi/24850/24850-33/681x454.jpg

You can find similar examples of destroyed temples all over India, especially in the North (Somnath anyone?)

However, it is likely that these acts of vandalism and desecration by Muslim invaders were prompted in equal measure by religious fervour and the need to impose the writ of the state and the various manifestations of it (poll tax on minorities etc as a means of raising revenue) on a subjugated population through the symbolic use of religion. I don`t think this phenomena is limited to Islam and should be viewed in the context of the highly politicised nature of proselytising Abrahamic faiths such as Christianity and Islam (see examples in South America, the Balkans especialy places like B/H, Turkey, the Levant etc).

Regardless of how much you want to contest it, current archeological evidence appears to point to the existence of a large structure beneath the Babri mosque, which could have been part of a temple complex. Given the track record of those who went before him, there is a high likelyhood that Babar, following his conquests of the gangetic plains, would have been tempted to destroy the exisiting temple in Ayodhya, which would have been revered by his adverseries and the local population, as a means of exerting authority over the newly acquired territories.

Personally, I don`t see no right or wrong in this case- two wrongs don`t make a right and just as Babur and the other Muslim invaders were wrong in doing what they did all those centuries ago, so were the activists who tore down the BM.. However I would like to think that we have moved on to being a society where we are able tolerate each others beliefs and coexist more or less peacefully without experiencing the urge to go around smashing each others places of worship or impose our POV on others through coercion. Building a 'secular' structure on the site would only breed resentment and aggravate the sense of injustice among both communities so the ideal option would be for the court to arrive at a split verdict (with the Muslim bloke going the temple's way, the Hindu going the other way in true secular fashion and the third one abstaining..how convenient) whilst the status quo is maintained until the population becomes enlightened enough to reprioritise their lives away from religion.

Anyways, let's see what happens when the verdict eventually comes out. I have a feeling that, regardless of which way it may go, we are less likely to see mass agitation or violence as has been witnessed following such events in the past. As a casual observer of Indian politics and society sitting here in the UK, I sense a fundamental shift in Indian society away from polarisation along caste/religious lines towards frank greed and consumerism in the last few years, which should hopefully prevent the outbreak of any widespread unrest....


Peace

 

[toppys]

Special Ayodhya bench judge goes public with dissent note


LUCKNOW: Reinforcing the speculation that it could be a split verdict on Ayodhya title suit, one of the judges of the three- judge special bench went public with his dissenting note on Monday. Just four days before the special bench is to pronounce verdict in the case, Justice DV Sharma while taking a stand which is contrary to the views of two judges who rejected any chance for amicable settlement through mediation on September 17, observed that the other two judges could not abruptly reject the plea for mediation and reconciliation of Ayodhya dispute.

In his isolated order pronounced on Monday, Justice Sharma observed: "...the only direction that is required to be given on the application seeking settlement of the 60-year-old dispute on Ram Janmabhoomi-Babri Masjid dispute through compromise was that the contesting parties are free to resolve their dispute amicably before the date of delivery of judgment and at this stage no interference of the court is required."

Two of the three judge of the special bench -- Justice SU Khan and Justice Sudhir Agrawal -- on September 17 rejected an application of a defendant Ramesh Chandra Tripathi holding that his attempt for mediation was not bonafide. The two judges had also expressed views that an attempt was being made for postponing the judgment which is to be delivered on September 24.

Justice Sharma expressed his disappointment that the other two judges had not consulted him while passing the order on Tripathi's application. On September 17, the two judges had made several queries from Tripathi's lawyer while Justice Sharma had maintained silence. Thereafter, the trio retired to the chamber and the order was passed.

Justice Sharma also observed on Monday that the two judges could not impose as much as Rs 50,000 fine on the applicant Tripathi as section 35a of the Civil Procedure Code ( CPC) provided that the cost could not exceed Rs 3,000. "I am sorry to state that at the time of the passing of order I was not consulted...," said Justice Sharma in his order.


Read more: Special Ayodhya bench judge goes public with dissent note - The Times of India

I think the best solution is for hindus to build a mosque at the same site and muslims to allow the temple to coexist in same level or multiple level building.

 

[kashith]

In Karnataka village, Hindus rebuild a crumbling mosque - The Times of India

HUBLI: As the nation anxiously awaits one mosque verdict, villagers in Karnataka's Gadag district have made their judgment clear as far as their local mosque is concerned. The spirited folk of Purtageri, a village around 500km from Bangalore, dissolved religious lines to come together and rebuild a mosque that was crumbling.

The 50-year-old mosque in this predominantly Hindu village was in urgent need of repair: with heavy rains lashing the region, the bamboo roof leaked. Around 20 Muslims of the village - which has 150 Hindu families - were struggling to pray there. That's when the Hindus laid some solid bricks of communal harmony.

Village elders and the gram panchayat inspected the mosque and realized that rebuilding the roof with reinforced concrete was the only permanent solution. As they began rebuilding the mosque, help both in cash and kind began pouring in.

While cement and slab dealers gave construction material, workers offered to put in free labour. "The villagers volunteered to donate cash ranging between Rs 100 and Rs 1,500," said Shivabasappa Hadagali, a village elder.

Construction work began about a month ago and so far, the renovation has cost Rs 1 lakh. Another Rs 50,000 may be needed. "We're planning to get the mosque ready by mid-December," said panchayat member Lakshmana Gooli.

"Had our Hindu brothers not helped, the mosque would not have got refurbished," said Allasaab Nadaf, a daily wager at a sawmill. "None of the Muslims are involved in the renovation as they are all poor and can't afford to miss even a day's wage."

Hanumant Mushigeri, a first-year BA student in Bhoomaraddi Arts and Commerce College here, said he was proud to come from a village which upholds secularism as much in deed as in words.

Read more: In Karnataka village, Hindus rebuild a crumbling mosque - The Times of India In Karnataka village, Hindus rebuild a crumbling mosque - The Times of India

 

[fallstuff]

I am not denying the fact that certain atrocities did happen. Temples were destroyed and force conversions did happen. However, one can not take that and say "therefore Babri Masjid was built on a Ram Temple." There is simply no resonable evidence to support that claim other than strong emotional ones.I think its the name "Babri" causes strong negetive feelings in Ayodha as it is also claimed as the birth place of Ram.

Spanish inquisition evicted Jews and Muslims from Spain. A wholsale act of turning mosques into something else took place. The Mosque of Cordoba was one of those.

Spanish invaders in Latin America were largely responsble for the extinction of certain old civilizations. These acts pale the Mulsims from Cetral Asia.

 

[temujin]

I am not denying the fact that certain atrocities did happen. Temples were destroyed and force conversions did happen. However, one can not take that and say "therefore Babri Masjid was built on a Ram Temple." There is simply no resonable evidence to support that claim other than strong emotional ones.I think its the name "Babri" causes strong negetive feelings in Ayodha as it is also claimed as the birth place of Ram.

Spanish inquisition evicted Jews and Muslims from Spain. A wholsale act of turning mosques into something else took place. The Mosque of Cordoba was one of those.

Spanish invaders in Latin America were largely responsble for the extinction of certain old civilizations. These acts pale the Mulsims from Cetral Asia.

I agree that its difficult to conclude one way or the other but there are clear indications that there is a structure underneath the mosque and there are historical references to a temple in the town that predated Babar.

Drawing comparisons between atrocities committed by the Christians against Muslims or the indigenous people of South America and what happened in the subcontient does not make one better than the other. IMO adherents of both faiths have, in the past, resorted to atrocities in lands they conquered, mostly as an means of sanctifying their acts and convincing themselves and their followers of divine entitlement over the 'other' and their resources.

I also agree that its no excuse to start trying to 'undo the wrongs', regardless of whether they were committed many centuries ago or in the 90s as that would the short route to utter chaos.