Army reaction on decision by Special court about General Pervez Musharraf

[fitpOsitive]

The real danger here is:
Every strong country have one strong department that actually looks after things and processes. In India its the bureaucracy. In Pakistan however this is Army, and that absolutely normal. Army of Pakistan is an organised, capable and an active department, and so far it is successful in keeping the boundaries of Pakistan safe.
Now that we know it is army for Pakistan, some other departments always tried in Pakistan, as in any other country, to take the privileges off the army and replace it as dominant department of Pakistan. At the movement it is Judiciary, which is not at all capable, not at all organized and incapable of defending the 'boundaries' of Pakistan(Pak judiciary lacks the sense of statesmanship, to be honest).
The current clash is to remove army from the governing seat, but the question is: Who will take the seat then? Judiciary? Allah na kary.

Here I want to give my proposal for governance: Rather than adopting a system of ruling which is coming all the way from the west is absolutely a bad solution for Pakistan. Pakistan should devise a system of governance, in which all pillars: Judiciary+forces+politicians+bureaucracy should have equal and distinctive part. A council should be formed that might comprised of representatives from all these departments. Thus everybody will be privileged and either everyone will be happy or no one. Chinese system is very much near to my vision. A group that is non-military, non-judiciary.
@Mangus Ortus Novem @MastanKhan @HRK @Mentee @Yaseen1

 

[Dreamer.]

According to law Musharraf is a traitor. But hell with such a law which calls him a traitor.

Finally a saner response among all the hullabulla displayed here so far. At least you admit that he is a traitor according to the law. As for the law itself everyone has the the right to disagree with it or any other law so you are well within your rights there.

HOWEVER, it is not for the military to reject a lawful verdict and attack another pillar of the state, consequently weakening the state itself at a time of grave dangers from outside. Their response was shocking, it should have been more measured. They have a right to raise their concerns but what is going on now is beyond excuse.

Fifth generation warfare where you infiltrate both sides and control the war until both sides descend into catastrophic cataclysm. Army should refrain from indulgment, this is an unimplementable decision of no consequence. Its crafted in disguise of 'supermacy of law' but the intent s to pit courts against the defence forces. Who will win & who will loose? the only looser will be pakistan.

Be alert. Dont give in to sensationalism. Avoid and ban such threads. @waz @Horus

Key words everyone should pay attention to.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

One problem with the law is that if Constitution is abrogated, by a person(s), and that abrogation is legitimized either by parliament and/or by judiciary; can they also be held as abettor to that abrogation?

good point, I will ask my lawyer friend. this is what Zia, Ayub, Bhutto etc did , they used Judiciary and the parliament to ratify their actions.

my view personally through a limited knowledge and understanding is that their act itself will absolve them from that charge if that ratification becomes the law itself. its chicken and egg case and is very interesting and I can think counter points to both sides.
the parliament is not part of the act under scrutiny but it is deciding on the subject matter its like any other criminal or civil case where the lawyer, judge etc are not held responsible for the act of the accused.

unless that act itself is legitimized, can that be done? I dont know. maybe its to do with retrospective limitation that you cant outlaw and punish a previous act but outlaw it for future. so say a new act is put in place preventing parliament and judiciary from amending a law that facilitates anything like suspension of constitution.

 

[messiach]

NO.

Keywords are 'this is an unimplementable decision of no consequence. Its crafted in disguise of 'supermacy of law'.

Your responce is NOTED. @waz

Will be controlled by Allahs will & these legal opportunists will be standing trial.

Finally a saner response among all the hullabulla displayed here so far. At least you admit that he is a traitor according to the law. As for the law itself everyone has the the right to disagree with it or any other law so you are well within your rights there.

HOWEVER, it is not for the military to reject a lawful verdict and attack another pillar of the state, consequently weakening the state itself at a time of grave dangers from outside. Their response was shocking, it should have been more measured. They have a right to raise their concerns but what is going on now is beyond excuse.


Key words everyone should pay attention to.

 

[StormBreaker]

Fifth generation warfare where you infiltrate both sides and control the war until both sides descend into catastrophic cataclysm. Army should refrain from indulgment, this is an unimplementable decision of no consequence. Its crafted in disguise of 'supermacy of law' but the intent s to pit courts against the defence forces. Who will win & who will loose? the only looser will be pakistan.

Be alert. Dont give in to sensationalism. Avoid and ban such threads. @waz @Horus

Finally someone who speaks english !!! Very less people until now on pdf have been able to see all this DRAMA in accordance with this perspective. The moment, First Press release from DG ISPR was released, i was quite amazed as i have gotten familiar in the past 3 years as to how current Army establishment handles issues but this was an anomaly in the usual graph.

They are falling victim to “THE GREATER PLAN” like you mentioned while showing judiciary their(judiciary’s) actual level. It should have been government to intervene in the situation openly with hidden backing and planning from army.

Finally a saner response among all the hullabulla displayed here so far. At least you admit that he is a traitor according to the law. As for the law itself everyone has the the right to disagree with it or any other law so you are well within your rights there.

HOWEVER, it is not for the military to reject a lawful verdict and attack another pillar of the state, consequently weakening the state itself at a time of grave dangers from outside. Their response was shocking, it should have been more measured. They have a right to raise their concerns but what is going on now is beyond excuse.


Key words everyone should pay attention to.

I am just gonna ask you this once, If law declares him a traitor, while the same law has such complexities and HOLES to allow bails to convicted terrorists and Financial terrorists like former governments, Shouldn’t we reconsider the “WORTH” of such a LAW ?

NO.
Keywords are 'this is an unimplementable decision of no consequence. Its crafted in disguise of 'supermacy of law'.
Your responce is noted.

Will be controlled by Allahs will & these legal opportunists will be standing trial.

I don’t see it being implemented either. However, i did have a feeling earlier, as Gen Sahab is quite ill these days, unlike past. The decision might have been taken into account keeping that God Forbid, PervezM saheb has counted days left due to illness so the decision would just hit 2 with 1 arrow. It will first of all give an image of “SUPREME JUDICIARY” while Pervez M (May Allah bless him health) might pass away naturally.

 

[Dreamer.]

NO.

Keywords are 'this is an unimplementable decision of no consequence. Its crafted in disguise of 'supermacy of law'.

Your responce is NOTED. @waz

Will be controlled by Allahs will & these legal opportunists will be standing trial.

Thanks, your response is NOTED aswell.

Unimplementable? Unfortunately yes.

Of no consequence? Not at all.

It is of consequence whether you agree with it or disagree with it. Even COAS & DG ISPR thought so, otherwise no need for reaction.

In Sha Allah musharraf will definitely face ALLAH's will and judgement. None of us will escape from that.

I am just gonna ask you this once, If law declares him a traitor, while the same law has such complexities and HOLES to allow bails to convicted terrorists and Financial terrorists like former governments, Shouldn’t we reconsider the “WORTH” of such a LAW ?

Firstly it is not the same law. The law that covers this case is different form the laws that cover terrorist and/or financial corruption. To answer your question, if a law has holes or any other problem, yes its "worth" can be re-examined. ANY man made law can be reconsidered, re-examined, revised, improved etc. etc. It is for the nation to decide what is worth keeping, what is not.

 

[HRK]

At the movement it is Judiciary, which is not at all capable, not at all organized and incapable of defending the 'boundaries' of Pakistan(Pak judiciary lacks the sense of statesmanship, to be honest).
The current clash is to remove army from the governing seat, but the question is: Who will take the seat then? Judiciary? Allah na kary.

We are in Transition phase .... what will emerge in the result of this unrest is difficult to predict

If law declares him a traitor

same constitution does not recognize 'Disloyalty' to the state as Treason .... but term Loyalty to State just as 'Basic Duty' ....
Few questions for all to consider

What if one fail in this basic duty of Loyalty towards State .... ???

Should he be considered as Traitor or just a Disloyal ... ???

What is given more RESPECT and held in more ESTEEMED Position in this Constitution
State or Constitution ...???

And What could the reason to give one more preference/respect/esteemed position over the other .... ???

 

[fitpOsitive]

We are in Transition phase .... what emerge in the result of this unrest is dificult to predict
View attachment 594771

And Imran Khan got that chance of creating new active and agile political system of Pakistan. Unfortunately, Imran Khan has not that personality which can establish a viable system for Pakistan. We need well experienced technocrats who can establish a free political frame work, who can train and mentor the new bureaucratic establishment, the people really know how to handle things on international arena and how to effectively use human resources. A team that will make Pakistan as one nation. But to be honest, I don't know from where we will get these people and in what capacity they will work.

 

[pkuser2k12]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1207949188023107585

 

[HRK]

And Imran Khan got that chance of creating new active and agile political system of Pakistan. Unfortunately, Imran Khan has not that personality which can establish a viable system for Pakistan. We need well experienced technocrats who can establish a free political frame work, who can train and mentor the new bureaucratic establishment, the people really know how to handle things on international arena and how to effectively use human resources. A team that will make Pakistan as one nation. But to be honest, I don't know from where we will get these people and in what capacity they will work.

Challenges which Pakistan is facing now are much bigger than the capacity of single person or institution can face, we need complete cohesion of all the institutes for single objective i.e. Pakistan

 

[pkuser2k12]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1207898979201093633

 

[SIPRA]

......... we need complete cohesion of all the institutes for single objective i.e. Pakistan

Not possible.

 

[pkuser2k12]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1208275336124882944

 

[StormBreaker]

We are in Transition phase .... what emerge in the result of this unrest is dificult to predict
View attachment 594771


same constitution does not recognize 'Disloyalty' to the state as Treason .... but term Loyalty to State just as 'Basic Duty' ....
Few questions for all to consider

What if one fail in this basic duty of Loyalty towards State .... ???

Should he be considered as Traitor or just a Disloyal ... ???

What is given more RESPECT and held in more ESTEEMED Position in this Constitution
State or Constitution ...???

And What could the reason to give one more preference/respect/esteemed position over the other .... ???

Exactly !!!

 

[Mentee]

The real danger here is:
Every strong country have one strong department that actually looks after things and processes. In India its the bureaucracy. In Pakistan however this is Army, and that absolutely normal. Army of Pakistan is an organised, capable and an active department, and so far it is successful in keeping the boundaries of Pakistan safe.
Now that we know it is army for Pakistan, some other departments always tried in Pakistan, as in any other country, to take the privileges off the army and replace it as dominant department of Pakistan. At the movement it is Judiciary, which is not at all capable, not at all organized and incapable of defending the 'boundaries' of Pakistan(Pak judiciary lacks the sense of statesmanship, to be honest).
The current clash is to remove army from the governing seat, but the question is: Who will take the seat then? Judiciary? Allah na kary.

Here I want to give my proposal for governance: Rather than adopting a system of ruling which is coming all the way from the west is absolutely a bad solution for Pakistan. Pakistan should devise a system of governance, in which all pillars: Judiciary+forces+politicians+bureaucracy should have equal and distinctive part. A council should be formed that might comprised of representatives from all these departments. Thus everybody will be privileged and either everyone will be happy or no one. Chinese system is very much near to my vision. A group that is non-military, non-judiciary.
@Mangus Ortus Novem @MastanKhan @HRK @Mentee @Yaseen1

Where did sarkari mulazim came into the picture? Until an unless devolution of power doesn't happen no positive outcome coukd be expected from any system.

Imo bureaucracy of all kinds must have no power beyond the district level. And provinces and federation must hire professionals on adhoc basis with a definite service period of three years not these ba ma pass secretaries to mess the shutt out of any department. While the military should be taken on board by the govt, before making any policy, on matters relating to national security.


And last but not the least docs and engineers who get education in govt universities must not to be allowed to adopt any other profession or all subsidiesed education expenses should be reimbersed in case they chose another profession.