Army Floats Wheeled Gun Bid

[Paan Singh]

igh. Because that's really all one can do about Indian artillery procurement. Oh well. After cancelling its last attempt at procuring 180 wheeled self-propelled 155mm artillery systems, the Army has begun the process afresh, sending out a new RFI to prospective vendors. The RFI, which specifies nothing apart from the requirement of a 155mm 45/52cal gun, leaves the door open for systems that could include the Konštrukta SpGH Zuzana 2, Nexter CAESAR, Rheinmetall RWG-52 and BAE-Bofors FH77 BW L52 Archer.

Livefist: 4th Time Lucky? Army Floats Wheeled Gun Bid

 

[Abingdonboy]

I know this is feeling all too familiar but I have renewed optimism for the IA's artillery plans all the different peicies- the ULH, the OFB 155mm Howitzer, the wheeled 155mm and the Self-propelled Howitzer are all moving forward and in the case of the first 2 peices we have already seen results. The "hot-potato" (arty guns) has finally stopped being passed around and now it seems it has become a poltiical must to move forward and the new COAS has procurement and modernisation in mind.


I am very hopeful that the IA's arty nightmare is finally coming to an end.



By the end of 2016/17 the IA should theoratiaclly have inducted close to 3/4000 pieces of artillery pieces if all comes good.

The contenders:
BAE-Bofors FH77 BW L52 Archer.

Rheinmetall RWG-52

Nexter CAESAR

Konštrukta SpGH Zuzana 2

My personal favorite is the Archer, the FH77 (that has already been in IA service for decades) mated with the Volvo A30D truck is a mean combination! Not to mention the FCS on the Archer is second to none!

 

[Gessler]

My personal favorite is the Archer, the FH77 (that has already been in IA service for decades) mated with the Volvo A30D truck is a mean combination! Not to mention the FCS on the Archer is second to none!

Will we get the truck too?? I mean, won't we be buying only the gun which can be mounted on a wheeled
carrier? The carrier maybe an indigenous alternative by TATA or Mahindra...?

 

[Abingdonboy]

Will we get the truck too?? I mean, won't we be buying only the gun which can be mounted on a wheeled
carrier? The carrier maybe an indigenous alternative by TATA or Mahindra...?

No it's the entire system otherwise why bother?? The IA already has the FH77 that the Archer uses, OFB is already making it, TATA is already making trucks for the IA both 4x4 and 6x6 so if it were the case then there would be no need for this tender. This is for the ENTIRE system.

 

[SpArK]

Video TimE

 

[ANPP]

I personaly love ARCHER put it over other system.

 

[aanshu001]

is baar kareed lo bhai maine tax bhi time se bhar diya hai..meharbani karo sala ye toap puran sun-sun ke pak chuka hoon

 

[Bang Galore]

Not even sure if Bofors will participate this time round. They have the best gun, the army keeps selecting it but no politician, not even someone like St.Antony wants to touch it with a barge pole.

 

[sudhir007]

maa ki aakhe ek bar phir se .........

 

[sancho]

No it's the entire system otherwise why bother?? The IA already has the FH77 that the Archer uses, OFB is already making it, TATA is already making trucks for the IA both 4x4 and 6x6 so if it were the case then there would be no need for this tender. This is for the ENTIRE system.

The FH77 that IA has is just the basic gun that has some commonality, otherwise it's a whole new system and when you compare the specs, it's defenitely not the best choice, especially not with the Volvo truck. An indigenous truck is clearly the better choice, because it makes the whole procurement cheaper, offers more commonality to other trucks in the IA and no issues with spare supply.

Check also my earlier comparison:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...ath-self-propelled-howitzers.html#post2835245

Not even sure if Bofors will participate this time round. They have the best gun, the army keeps selecting it but no politician, not even someone like St.Antony wants to touch it with a barge pole.

Bofors actually doesn't exist anymore, they belong to BAE now and with the Hawk trainers, the M777 howitzers and the JV with Mahindra, they made and have the potential for a good part of the Indian market.

 

[Killswitch]

Since the M777 has been purchased from the parent company of Bofors, perhaps the archer will be selected. I wouldnt be surprised if it wins in the performance column during trials.

 

[Bang Galore]

Bofors actually doesn't exist anymore, they belong to BAE now and with the Hawk trainers, the M777 howitzers and the JV with Mahindra, they made and have the potential for a good part of the Indian market.

I'm aware of that. I was actually referring to BAE's decision not to participate in the army's tender because of dilution of specifications over which there has been some rethinking now. That earlier decision not to participate was due to BAE's offer being the only one standing at the end of the last trials. The army recommended the purchase of the gun but the MoD was simply not willing to give the order to "Bofors" regardless of ownership, especially as a single vendor(since no one else met the specifications, no cost comparison can be done) purchase would even in the normal case attract attention of the CAG.

The M777 deal is a direct contract with the U.S. government has nothing to do with BAE even if it is the manufacturer. The reason for the direct contract is to bypass the kind of situation that has arisen in the towed gun tender.

BAE Systems rethinks decision on artillery contracts

The feeling is taking root within BAE Systems that the British defence multinational has blundered in opting out of the Indian tender for 155 millimetre towed artillery guns. This was evident on Friday, in the company’s Annual Business Review meeting in New Delhi, when senior executives argued that last month’s decision not to bid in the MoD’s Rs 8000 tender for 1580 towed guns would seriously disadvantage BAE Systems in competing for other tenders in the Indian Army’s Rs 20,000 crore artillery modernisation programme.

This growing fear was summed up by a source that was present in that meeting: “If we don’t take part in this tender, we’ll remain out of the Indian market for the next three decades.”

Shortly before the tender submission deadline of 28th April, BAE Systems had written to the MoD that it would not submit a bid in the contract for towed guns. Now, opinion within the company is veering around to the viewpoint that BAE Systems must bid for this tender.

The deadline of 28th April has since been extended by two months and the MoD will now be accepting bids up to 28th June. BAE Systems, therefore, has the time to change its decision.

Last month, BAE Systems had explained why the company was not bidding, despite participating creditably in earlier tenders, including field trials. To conform to the stringent Indian Army specifications laid down in an earlier RFP (Request for Proposals, as the MoD terms tender requests), BAE Systems had made expensive modifications to the gun it was offering, a modernised version of the battle-proven, albeit controversial, Bofors FH-77B gun. But the current tender, issued on 28th Jan 11, diluted the gun’s specifications in order to bring in more vendors. That made the BAE Systems gun over-designed, over-qualified, and probably too expensive.

The company’s spokesperson, Guy Douglas, told wire service, IANS, that the BAE Systems FH-77B 05 gun “was specifically designed for and demonstrated to meet the Indian Army’s requirements as stated in previous RFPs… We found that the new RFP includes technical and performance relaxations that allow less capable weapon systems to enter the competition. This significantly reduces the competitive advantage FH-77B 05 derives from its greater capability.”

It is not yet clear which artillery manufacturers will compete in this new tender for the long-delayed purchase of 155 mm towed guns, a procurement that has dragged on for almost a decade. Many of the world’s premier manufacturers have been eliminated through blacklisting, including Singapore Technology Kinetics (STK); South African company, Denel; Israeli company, Soltam; and German manufacturer, Rheinmetall.

Fuelling the growing belief that BAE Systems must bid in this tender are behind-the-scenes requests from the army’s artillery directorate, which has become convinced, over several rounds of earlier trials, of the quality of the FH-77B 05 Bofors gun. Given the army’s backing, BAE Systems’ “pro-participation” advocates argue that a few tens of millions of dollars spent on modifications would be an acceptable price for winning this Rs 8000 crore contract and taking pole position in the other lucrative gun contracts that total up to Rs 20,000 crores.

Contacted for comments, BAE Systems spokesperson, Guy Douglas, denied that there was a rethink under way and ruled out the possibility of a new decision ahead.

The expansively named Artillery Vision 2027 and the MoD-sanctioned Artillery Modernisation Plan visualise four major gun purchases ahead: besides the contract for 1580 towed guns, the army is also buying 140 ultralight 155 mm, 39 calibre howitzers from BAE Systems for about Rs 3000 crore. Another Rs 3500 crore is up for grabs for the purchase of 100 track-mounted, 155 mm, 52 calibre howitzers; and Rs 4000 crore for 180 similar vehicle-mounted guns for self-propelled artillery regiments.

BAE Systems has formed a JV with the Mahindra group, setting up a company, Defence Land Systems, which will be the local manufacturing partner for artillery contracts won by BAE Systems in India. Mahindra is likely to play an important role in any BAE Systems decision to participate in the tender. The final decision will be taken by BAE Systems’ Land & Armaments Divisions.

Broadsword: BAE Systems rethinks decision on artillery contracts

Another story of interest from a few months ago.

Kalyani Group artillery to be featured

Army chief General V K Singh’s leaked letter to defence minister A K Antony, which flagged the country’s lack of defence preparedness, casts a shadow over Defexpo India 2012, which kicks off in New Delhi tomorrow. However, the silver linings in the four-day event would be the impressive presence of several Indian private companies and newcomers in developing complex weaponry, with capabilities the defence ministry (MoD) can no longer ignore.

Among the most visible would be the Pune-headquartered Kalyani Group, which would emphatically project its ambition to develop artillery systems for the Indian Army. With foreign artillery procurement stalled for two decades, Baba Kalyani — who has shaped his flagship company, Bharat Forge, into the world’s largest forgings manufacturer — has committed the finance, the manpower and the strategic mind space he believes would make the Kalyani Group a full-spectrum developer of artillery systems.

Kalyani intends to start by building a 155 mm, 52-calibre towed howitzer, which the army desperately wants. Several years of user trials of foreign guns have only resulted in vendors being rejected, blacklisted, or withdrawn from the contest. Kalyani is now boldly offering an Indian alternative.

“I will offer to the Indian Army a fully developed artillery gun system, integrating all the command and control elements, before 2015,” he asserts.

To this end, the Kalyani Group has imported from Austrian gun manufacturer Maschinenfabrik Liezen (MFL) a service version of its famous 155 mm, 45-calibre, autonomous gun system, which had impressed Indian gunners when they evaluated it in the mid-1980s (though they bought the Bofors gun instead).

The Kalyani Group has also bought, knocked down and transported to India an entire operational artillery gun factory from Swiss company RUAG. Instead of learning the ropes of manufacturing artillery from scratch, Kalyani’s designers in Pune intend to absorb foreign technology, thereby leapfrogging an extended development process. Unlike many Indian private companies, Baba Kalyani is investing his own money into building capabilities. Given Bharat Forge’s hardcore engineering pedigree, he is confident he has the solution.

Says Kalyani: “There are the DRDO ((Defence Research & Development Organisation), the OFB (Ordnance Factory Board) and other excellent organisations that have design talent and capability. What India lacks is the ability to convert designs into manufactured products. This is where the Kalyani Group comes in. Building an artillery gun system is largely about materials, forgings and manufacturing. We have in our group the capability to be a top-class manufacturer of precision products.”

Kalyani Steel would provide the steel and metallurgy. The drives, engine, transmission, etc would be built by Automotive Axles Ltd, the Rs 2,000-crore Kalyani Group company and the largest manufacturer of axles in the region.

Alongside the engineering bravado, there is realism, too, about the Kalyani Group’s inexperience in creating the sophisticated software that underpins the gun control, fire correction and command and control systems, about 50 per cent of the overall gun system.

“Our strategy is to collaborate with entities that already have capabilities in electronics and guidance. (For this) we are in constant dialogue with the DRDO and the MoD. But we are confident about the precision engineering needed for the mechanical parts of the gun,” says Kalyani.

The only “missing link”, as Kalyani puts it, is the reliance on the MoD for testing facilities. Guns under development must be periodically tested through live firing. In India, this can only be conducted in cooperation with the Army. The MoD, rattled by the repeated failures of artillery gun procurement programmes, has already initiated two projects in the public sector to develop an artillery gun. The OFB has been asked to construct two 155 mm, 39-calibre guns from the engineering drawings that came with the Bofors gun in the mid-1980s. The OFB would then try to upgrade these into longer-range 155 mm, 45-calibre guns.

Simultaneously, the MoD has sanctioned Rs 150 crore for the DRDO to develop a 155 mm, 52-calibre gun. The DRDO’s Armament R&D Establishment (ARDE), Pune, would soon float a tender for an Indian industrial partner, in which the Kalyani Group intends to bid.

Such is the aggressiveness within the Group that it intends to develop its own gun on a parallel track, even if it becomes an industrial partner to the DRDO for the ARDE’s gun. Rajinder Bhatia, who would head this project, says, “We are willing to compete against ourselves. On one track, we will work with the DRDO, funded by the government. On our own track, we will fund ourselves. Baba Kalyani is willing to commit Rs 100 crore for this.”

Kalyani Group artillery to be featured

 

[David James]

Why only 180 ?? Indian Army should have 600-800 of these for two front war.

 

[subincb]

The FH77 that IA has is just the basic gun that has some commonality, otherwise it's a whole new system and when you compare the specs, it's defenitely not the best choice, especially not with the Volvo truck. An indigenous truck is clearly the better choice, because it makes the whole procurement cheaper, offers more commonality to other trucks in the IA and no issues with spare supply.

Bofors actually doesn't exist anymore, they belong to BAE now and with the Hawk trainers, the M777 howitzers and the JV with Mahindra, they made and have the potential for a good part of the Indian market.

Actually India doesn't have anything that could be closer to A30D Volvo. These are huge ones. You should see the truck in desert. We use it at our site in desert if nothing else works.

Volvo has production in India. May be they can shift the entire production unit to india if the order is huge.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Why only 180 ?? Indian Army should have 600-800 of these for two front war.

As with almost all Indian defence purchases 180 is just the initial order, subsequent orders could be much more.