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Arjun Special Report

joey

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When everyone says Arjun failed I feel bad, I know it has been a lot of time almost 25 years but finally DRDO really did it.
Arjun right now the product is a stellar success after having huge trials and lots of problems, I'm waiting for a live firing round.

ok now lets have a classified where Arjun stands among worlds other MBT's.

Just go through this it will give you complete idea, the links there are neutral too.
http://www.ipcs.org/IPCS-Special-Report-23.pdf

Hopefully you guys will know that Arjun is slowly became a success.

Right now the DRDO is changing a bit of ERA with NERA to reduce weight a bit so that it suites indian railway tracks.
 
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bro somehow i cant see links either, there are some problems it says "register to see link" :(.

anyways here is the link, put them without the spaces, its a PDF file.
www . ipcs.org/IPCS-Special-Report-23. pdf

Mig ace> well theoritically it will but no reducing some armous where its not needed with NERA wont change anything, though the first batch will be all ERA.
 
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This beast is going to suck against the Al Khalid. Sorry I didn't read the article, just scrolled down to the comparison table.

To penetrate modern armor a rifled main gun just won't cut it. It's also a smaller gun on a bigger tank. Perhaps the Indians were going for accuracy, but really its a tank not a sniper rifle, you gotta shoot some to get a hit. Now you tell me they are reducing the armor too.

It has a higher road speed, But not like super fast. Due to bigger engine of course.

What else? Oh yeah, the Pakistanis are thinking close range combat when it comes to battling it out with India. Arjuns can't do that. Still slower in rugged terrain. In close combat this is what is going to happen, Indians would load up HESH rounds (which are so not a big deal anymore, they've been around since the cold war days), and try to get a hit onto the Pakistanis.

The rounds being slower and unable to do the distance(rifled gun, u just get accuracy), hopefully a trained PA tanker would be able to evade. By the time the next round is fired(rifled gun takes longer), The Al Khalid would've at least gotten a coupla shots at the Arjun.

Heck we don't even have to be accurate. The Al Khalid supports High Explosive Fragmentation shells. A coupla close enough shots should do it.

Sorry man, if the Al Khalids roll out, IA's still bringing out the T-90S not the Arjun. I too don't think the Arjun is a waste (so long as they are able to make these in considerable numbers). Just that they won't be fielded against the Pak Army. Maybe some Peacekeeping missions or breaking out riots on the streets.
 
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Hmmm

I too have to question the use of a rifled barrel......i understand there were problems with the accuracy of previous prototypes?

Anyway sorry guys I didn't read anything that would particularly sway me. The comparisons don't really show if the various subsystems work well together.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that it will suck (as the previous poster) as that can not be told until it sees actual use in combat. But lets wait and see what happens. Sounds like they are downgrading several systems in order to get it out finally.
 
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It was too heavy, that was the biggest problam, did DRDO fix that or no ?
 
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They were suppose to be replacing Arjun Tank with a more powerful engine to nomalize the weight and speed ratio, however of course there were other problems, and it didn't become cost effective as it was planned to, nor was it able to make Indian forces happy.
 
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Hmmm

I too have to question the use of a rifled barrel......i understand there were problems with the accuracy of previous prototypes?

Anyway sorry guys I didn't read anything that would particularly sway me. The comparisons don't really show if the various subsystems work well together.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that it will suck (as the previous poster) as that can not be told until it sees actual use in combat. But lets wait and see what happens. Sounds like they are downgrading several systems in order to get it out finally.
Yeah about that sucking bit. I purely mean with its expected given use - against Pakistan.

As soon as Pak made some headway with the Al Khalid and The T-80UD and the Zarrar class tanks Indian Army made a large order of the T-90S. Pretty much tells you what they are banking on to fight the Pakistanis with.

And with damn good reason, its light, its capable of firing bigger, more effective rounds. It is an actual threat. Without those there, Pak Army would've tried to rush our tanks upfront real quick n fast and take out those slow moving, large targets. One thing, The Arjun claims to have a remarkably larger range. Now I'm no war planner or anything but if this was a game or star craft, I'd send the quick moving guys in and keep my slow moving, accurate, long ranged tanks back. And while the Khalids are busy engaging the T-90S and the Arjuns are out of their range they can fire from far away.

It's a classic star craft move, thats all I'm saying. There may be many wholes in this plan which I haven't considered. One things for certain the Indians are not scrapping this toy off. So we should take a serious look into it, I doubt the Indian government just keeps this thing around to humor the DRDO.
 
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Yeah about that sucking bit. I purely mean with its expected given use - against Pakistan.

As soon as Pak made some headway with the Al Khalid and The T-80UD and the Zarrar class tanks Indian Army made a large order of the T-90S. Pretty much tells you what they are banking on to fight the Pakistanis with.

The Arjun tanks will perform well against Pakistan, it is not that it is a bad tank but that it is so over budget and delayed and also the fact that India could have bought T-90's that have better performance and are cheaper than the Arjun.

The Arjun will most probably suffer if it actually comes against Pakistani T-80's or Al-Khalid tanks but againts every other tank in Pakistan's inventory it should hold its own. Also if im not mistaken India has sufficient quantity of T-90's and T-72's to ensure that it wont be disadvantaged on an aggregate level (and also the fact India has far more helicopters and artillery).

Its also a mistake to claim that just becauase the Arjun is deficient in tank on tank capability that it would be useless against Pakistan. It would also serve an important role when it took on Pakistani infantry which did not have access to T-80's and Al-Khalids in a specific area.
 
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This beast is going to suck against the Al Khalid. Sorry I didn't read the article, just scrolled down to the comparison table.
Really read it again.

"Three decades after the first MBT-80 proof of concept vehicle was unveiled, five Arjun tanks, along with T 72 and T 90 tanks, will be handed over to the Army in June 2006. This batch constitutes the first delivery of the order of 124 tanks placed by the Indian Army. While flagging off the Bogie Flat Arjun Tank (BFAT) in Bangalore on 27 May 2006, Chief of Army Staff General JJ Singh said that the tanks were expected to be inducted into the Army after the field trials. The three decades that have gone into producing an MBT, that is acceptable to the Army, are dotted with adverse publicity. To begin with, the locally developed engine failed to perform to expectations. This was followed by the unsatisfactory performance of the fire control system, that produced an erratic first hit rate ranging from 20-80 percent. Apart from its heavy weight, the tank was also larger than the tanks that can be transported by standard Indian railcars: it extends 6 cms beyond the allowed 3 cm on other side of the railcar. All this meant an extension of the project beyond the mandated timeframe and budget.

Nevertheless, despite stinging criticism, the DRDO has finally managed to roll out a tank that started out as a MBT-80 but resulted in something equaling the top MBTs of the world Abrahms, Leclerc and Leopard. A comparison of the Arjun tanks specifications, with the acclaimed MBTs and the best MBT in Indian possession (Bhishma), reveals that Arjun is not only on par with them, but better than them in firing capacity and battle survivability. Three key factors adjudge the quality of any MBT. They are mobility, weaponsystems,and battle survivability. Lets see how the Arjun fares.

MOBILITY
To begin with, though the weight of the tank if often cited as a failure, in actuality, the tank is not very heavy as compared to other tanks in its category. Despite its weight, it has very low ground pressure which will prevent the tank from sinking in the sand as widely criticized. The M1A2, heavier than Arjun by more than 10 tons and with much higher ground pressure, performed remarkably well in the desert sands during the first Gulf War. The Arjun tank is not only more agile that the T-90S Bhishma, with a maximum speed of 72 km/h, but also exerts less ground pressure, thereby significantly reducing the chance of sinking in.

WEAPONS
The main armament is a 120 mm rifled gun. This is in contrast to the 120 mm smoothbore gun sported by other tanks in this category. The crucial difference with the rifled gun is that it can fire APFSDS (Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot), HEAT (High Explosive Anti Tank) and HESH (High Explosive Squash Head) projectiles. A smoothbore gun can fire only APFSDS and HEAT projectiles but not HESH ones.

What is so special about HESH? HESH rounds have a high explosive content that spreads itself on the surface of the target upon impact. It does not possess the armor piercing ability of the HEAT
or APFSDS projectiles. However, the shock wave it creates upon impact travels through the armor and results in metal parts inside the compartment to spall off and fly damaging weapon systems,igniting fuel and
ammunition in itsway and particularly causing injury and death to the crew members. It has been argued that current armored fighting vehicles with composite or layered armor are safe against HESH as the shock wave is not carried inside. In addition, there exists some level of controversy over whether the reactive armor found on most MBTs effectively counters the shockwave or adds to the blast and shock effect. However, the Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) claims that the HESH ammunition, designed by it, has the ability to strip off the explosive reactive armor (ERA) and incapacitate the crew severely. Apart from having a deadly effect on previous generation tanks, it also has its use against fortifications. In the Arjun tank, the HESH is the secondary ammunition and is aimed against soft targets, tanks and fortifications; APFSDS projectiles are the primary anti-tank ammunition.

Another feature that sets the Arjun apart from other tanks is its ability to fire while on the move. The computerized fire control system currently aboard Arjun has been jointly developed with the Israelis. The tank has a thermal imager apart from a laser finder for target designation. However, significant among Arjun’s firepower is its ability to fire the LAHAT (Laser-Homing Anti-Tank) missile. The LAHAT, designed and developed by the Israeli Aircraft Industries (IAI) MBT division, has already been successfully tested on the Arjun. It has a range of upto 8 kms, much beyond the conventional capability of 2.5 km and beyond visual range. The tank’s fire control system includes the laser designator which will project a laser beam on the target. The special feature is that the target designation can be done by another tank, or a ground laser designator, and the target need not necessarily be in the line of sight to the platform firing the missile. The missile weighing 13 kgs has a high penetration capability and there are no known defenses for armored vehicles against LAHAT.

BATTLE SURVIVABILITY
The Arjun tank uses the indigenously designed and developed Kanchan composite armor which is designed to provide protection superior to similar amour on other tanks. The Kanchan armour has been successfully tested against fire from APFSDS, HEAT and HESH ammunitions. Experts who saw the MBT in the DEFEXPO 2004 did concede that the build appeared much stronger that that of T-72 or T-90S. The integrated fire and explosion suppression system aboard Arjun is state-of-the-art technology with infra-red detectors, that can detect and suppress hydro-carbon fuel/explosion within 200 milliseconds in the crew compartment and within 15 seconds in the engine compartment. Arjun uses the Halon fire extinguishing system, similar to the one in the Abrams MBT, which can automatically activate within 2 milliseconds of either a flash or a fire. The tank also has protection against nuclear, biological and chemical weapons.

However, the specialty of the tank lies in its battlefield management system (BMS) which facilitates tactical command as well as control and communications between one tank and the rest of the team. A touch screen BMS for quick access, and an integrated Global Positioning System, enhances the efficiency of the tanks.

Like most tanks in this category, the Arjun tank also accommodates four crew members. While a three member crew with autoloaders could have increased the rate of fire from the currently 6-8 rounds/minute, a four member crew helps the crew to undertake more maintenance related work with less fatigue. Finally, the indigenously developed hydro-pneumatic suspension provides excellent crew comfort that prevents fatigue despite extended runs.

Currently, more than 50 percent of the Arjun tank’s components are imported. According to the DRDO, this is likely to go down as production progresses. Few technological changes are also on the cards to increase operational capability.

In the final tally, the Arjun tank emerges as the best tank in India’s possession. Together with Bhishma(T-90S), the Arjun tank is set to form 30 percent of the state-of-the-art tanks that India plans to have. The discouraging developmental phase of the Arjun project not only discredited the capability of the DRDO to produce an MBT, but also gave rise to the skepticism that the purchase of the T-90S from Russia was designed to kill the Arjun project. The successful completion of the Arjun project aims to put to rest these concerns. While the DRDO does deserve credit for the project, the army too could be given some credit, for it can be argued that if not for the uncompromising and scathing criticism from the Army, the Arjun would have ended up as an obsolete T-80 tank and not a state-of-the-art next generation tank."


The Arjun is 50% Israeli, Russian and German. And that's a compliment.
 
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To penetrate modern armor a rifled main gun just won't cut it.
The Challenger also has a rifled main gun.
It's also a smaller gun on a bigger tank. Perhaps the Indians were going for accuracy, but really its a tank not a sniper rifle, you gotta shoot some to get a hit.
Smaller? How do you figure that? It uses a FSAPDS except that it uses Tungsten instead of DU.

What else? Oh yeah, the Pakistanis are thinking close range combat when it comes to battling it out with India. Arjuns can't do that.
Why not? Its got a first class FCS.
Still slower in rugged terrain. In close combat this is what is going to happen, Indians would load up HESH rounds (which are so not a big deal anymore, they've been around since the cold war days), and try to get a hit onto the Pakistanis.
The Arjun uses the APFSDS as its primary munition

The rounds being slower and unable to do the distance(rifled gun, u just get accuracy), hopefully a trained PA tanker would be able to evade.
The world record for a tank kill is held by a challenger (120mm) at 5 kms.
By the time the next round is fired(rifled gun takes longer), The Al Khalid would've at least gotten a coupla shots at the Arjun.
The Arjun shoots 6-8 rounds a minute while the AK does 8 rounds too. So whats the big advantage?
Heck we don't even have to be accurate. The Al Khalid supports High Explosive Fragmentation shells. A coupla close enough shots should do it.
Couple of shots at the same spot ought to do it. I thought the AK could fire APFSDS. Most modern tanks use it.

Just that they won't be fielded against the Pak Army. Maybe some Peacekeeping missions or breaking out riots on the streets.
The best Indian tankers will get to operate the Arjun. One of the negatives of the Arjun was that it required specialized training of western standards to use the fancy gadgets onboard the Arjun. Unlike Russian tanks which are pretty low tech.
 
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It was too heavy, that was the biggest problam, did DRDO fix that or no ?
No. They sidestepped it. New railway cars were inaugurated to carry the Arjun. Also bridgelayers on the Arjun's chassis were built to solve the bridge problem. The ground pressure of the Arjun is lower than that of the T90s so the weight wasn't a problem in the desert.
 
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Heck we don't even have to be accurate. The Al Khalid supports High Explosive Fragmentation shells. A coupla close enough shots should do it.
Asim,
I hope you know that HE-FRAG is not anti-tank ammo.:coffee:, but yes a top attack hit can disable a tank.
 
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