Amur-1650 offered to India under Project-75I is best of Several Submarines : Rubin CEO

[PARIKRAMA]

We r getting DCNS to get us AIP or mesma aip bcz DRDO aip is far behind schedule..

 

[R!CK]

We r getting DCNS to get us AIP or mesma aip bcz DRDO aip is far behind schedule..

That decision should have been made for the current Scorpenes. It was a better decision to have them commissioned with AIP rather than outfit them at a later stage. However the MOD must keep the DRDO project alive for the future indigenous projects like Project 76.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

P75I do we really need it now?

Priority should be 6SSNs first.

6+3+3 scorpenes, present upgraded kilos and/or 2 more may be 636 ones should be enough for some time.

We should focus on SSN project and pour our money in that.

On brahmos when NG comes all SSK torpelueings wud b in position to fire if it's fittable and made compatible. So why shud we need VLS. Only VLS we need is for Nirhay,K15,K4,K5 types mix.. Thus effectively the charm of P75I is fast getting lost.. In fact we should rather scrap it.

(By NG I mean the smaller one not the hypersonic one,may b better way to say is mini)

Should be , but the present plans for SSNs means that the first Indian SSN is atleast 10 years away.

For SSNs we should at the moment stick to more and more refurbished Akulas , most of them have had a decade of service in Soviet Navy and afterwards with only few operational deployments and presently 5 of them are just, gathering snow and rust in some shipyards.

One thing is for sure , acquiring Akulas at present is cheaper than to build an SSN starting today in India and it can be said to be the 4th best SSN platform right now in operation behind the American new gen SSNs, The famed 3 Seawolfs and the British SSNs under induction.

And the Chinese , their latest SSN is atleast a generation behind these Akulas.

I would still prefer submarines with VLS than subs with pure Torpedo tubes , unless they have those 633mm torpedo tubes. This ensures a universal VLS cell capable of deploying a very wide variety of systems , not only BrahMos , but future , even 5 years down the line , light anti ship missiles, land attack systems , system similar to ASROC, etc. A VLS has its own advantage over the regular 533mm.

This one thing also gets a boost when we say that Ohio class SSGNs ( equipped with VLS) are better than their Russian ( Oscar Class ) counterparts.

Further its pretty much sure that all the Scorpenes will come of Mazadgaon Docks , we do need a 2nd line producing modern SSKs. And a shipyard building 2 off 636s isn't serving that purpose.

We r getting DCNS to get us AIP or mesma aip bcz DRDO aip is far behind schedule..

Fuel Cells all the way, either from France or Germany. NO MESMA. The steam turbines negate a lot of stealth .

And talking about Fuel cells , either DRDO gets it right or else I would want the best out there, from HDW.

 

[GURU DUTT]

@fsayed mark my words Amur-1650 is out and latest improoved version of scorpene is in with french AIP with VLS

 

[fsayed]

 

[TylerDurden07]

German submarines are best.
no more Russkies

 

[Ankit Kumar]

@fsayed mark my words Amur-1650 is out and latest improoved version of scorpene is in with french AIP with VLS

If your opinion about P75I is linked with what happens in Rafale deal , then be prepared for surprises.

The competition is very wide open when politics , economy , navy's preference and what nations in IOR and our enemy operates is taken into consideration.

Till now even the S80 has not been told out, this pretty much sums the open game right now. And the amount of lobbying going on in MMRCA.... if we operate A26s 10 Years down the line, I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[GURU DUTT]

If your opinion about P75I is linked with what happens in Rafale deal , then be prepared for surprises.

The competition is very wide open when politics , economy , navy's preference and what nations in IOR and our enemy operates is taken into consideration.

Till now even the S80 has not been told out, this pretty much sums the open game right now. And the amount of lobbying going on in MMRCA.... if we operate A26s 10 Years down the line, I wouldn't be surprised.

thing is undes new doctroine the major SSBN kind of job will be taken by nuclear subs while deisel electric subs will be more for ASW kind of roles and we have complete tooling for scorpenes we missed one chance when we had the same setup forr german boats but due to our own lethargy in taking quick decissions we let that go cant make the same mistake again as its not like plug and play so improoved scorpenes with french AIP is the best bet maybe the russian or japnese sub might be made by a private firm but thats a very long shot and might only materialise after 10 years minnimum what should we do till then as we have a very agressive chinese and pakistani navy and there subs to tackle

 

[Ankit Kumar]

thing is undes new doctroine the major SSBN kind of job will be taken by nuclear subs while deisel electric subs will be more for ASW kind of roles and we have complete tooling for scorpenes we missed one chance when we had the same setup forr german boats but due to our own lethargy in taking quick decissions we let that go cant make the same mistake again as its not like plug and play so improoved scorpenes with french AIP is the best bet maybe the russian or japnese sub might be made by a private firm but thats a very long shot and might only materialise after 10 years minnimum what should we do till then as we have a very agressive chinese and pakistani navy and there subs to tackle

More scorpenes will keep coming as follow ons.They arev independent of P75I. And having a second submarine construction line is also an important thing.

As you said in next 5 years , more or less we will have 2-3 SSBNs. But the thing is , with present plans we will have only 2 SSNs for 2 Aircraft carriers and 2 SSBNs in addition to carrying our tasks at far away destinations... and if I apply the efficiency which UK has , we need atleast 8 SSNs active to get escorts for CBGs and SSBNs. And when that's not happening, we need some other options. And Scorpene don't count here. We need bigger and better SSKs.

And these two things are the reason why P75I is important.And my personal opinion has that with Russia not having a proven AIP, Japan not offering , France already having a slice in P75. It's either TKMS or SAAB. Because one of the purpose of having P75I is also to have diversified options. And untill France gets a diesel Baracudda with a fuel cell AIP at a cost comparable to that of Germany , I don't see winning it.

 

[GURU DUTT]

More scorpenes will keep coming as follow ons.They arev independent of P75I. And having a second submarine construction line is also an important thing.

As you said in next 5 years , more or less we will have 2-3 SSBNs. But the thing is , with present plans we will have only 2 SSNs for 2 Aircraft carriers and 2 SSBNs in addition to carrying our tasks at far away destinations... and if I apply the efficiency which UK has , we need atleast 8 SSNs active to get escorts for CBGs and SSBNs. And when that's not happening, we need some other options. And Scorpene don't count here. We need bigger and better SSKs.

And these two things are the reason why P75I is important.And my personal opinion has that with Russia not having a proven AIP, Japan not offering , France already having a slice in P75. It's either TKMS or SAAB. Because one of the purpose of having P75I is also to have diversified options. And untill France gets a diesel Baracudda with a fuel cell AIP at a cost comparable to that of Germany , I don't see winning it.

why cant we go for the ones australia just baought from france i mean blue fin baracudda ?

 

[Ankit Kumar]

why cant we go for the ones australia just baought from france i mean blue fin baracudda ?

I would start by asking you the reason why a decision there ( which is itself under so much scrutiny and allegations ) affect us ?

 

[GURU DUTT]

I would start by asking you the reason why a decision there ( which is itself under so much scrutiny and allegations ) affect us ?

maybe cause its the best option taking into account the future naval war doctroine sure its a bit expensive but its one of the best if not the best whats more if we have a MII /TOT set up for it we in future can add nuclear propulssion to it aswell

 

[Ankit Kumar]

maybe cause its the best option taking into account the future naval war doctroine sure its a bit expensive but its one of the best if not the best whats more if we have a MII /TOT set up for it we in future can add nuclear propulssion to it aswell

Future Naval Warfare and Short Fin Baracuda is the best option ? I neither accept it, nor deny it.

I will just say that this proposition is not correct.

Bit expensive ? , there is quite a good amount of difference , and in bidding process that's not an advantage.

TOT and MII, ....? Well in the Australian competition , it was only TKMS which openly stated that they would be ready to build the submarines in Australia ( which including training and imparting technical know how to local workforce, upgrading infra and getting new machines ) at a little to negligible escalation in cost. Something which DCNS, at least till now hasn't yet said.

Adding nuclear propulsion in a refit will be costly , it will be cheaper to buy a new SSN. And we aren't in a position to do that.( Over spending ).

Further I would like to seek your attention towards a relatively more quite and fair competition north of Australia. The Singapore one. There too it was same TKMS vs DCNS , but as of now we have Type 218SG being built in HDW.The Type 216 , according to me holds a upper hand because
1. It fulfills our needs ( specifications ) and will cost much less than its competitors.
2. Willingness of TKMS to build the submarines at its customers shipyard.
3. A proven AIP system , better than what France has right now.

 

[Mustang06]

Off topic but what's the update on the acquisition of second 'Akula'?

 

[fsayed]