What's new

American Gripen: The Solution To The F-35 Nightmare

Spectre

SENIOR MEMBER
Joined
Jun 4, 2015
Messages
3,735
Reaction score
46
Country
India
Location
India
American Gripen: The Solution To The F-35 Nightmare | The Daily Caller

One thing that has helped keep the F-35 program going is a perception that there is no ‘Plane B.’ As Margaret Thatcher famously said,“There is no alternative.” No matter how bad the F-35 is, it is going to be built because the U.S. Air Force needs something to replace its worn-out fighters. That appears to be the fallback position in Lockheed Martin’s marketing plan for the F-35. The Department of Defence though is fully aware of the extraordinary cost of the F-35 relative to its performance and is looking to scale back its procurement. That could result in a death spiral as falling numbers send unit costs through the roof.

This figure shows U.S. Air Force fighter and light bomber procurement from 1975 with a projection to 2030:

Screen-Shot-2016-01-22-at-5.08.21-PM-620x402.png

Most of the fighter fleet was built in the fifteen years from 1977 to 1992. Then the F-22 came along a decade ago. While it is a fabulous fighter when it is flying, it is too costly to fly. The F-22 takes 42 man-hours of maintenance for each hour in the air. About half of those maintenance hours are taken with repairing its radar-absorbent-material (RAM) coating. Availability has risen to 63 percent. F-22 pilots are restricted to 10 to 12 hours in the air per month due to an operating cost of $58,000 per hour, the Air Force simply can’t afford more than that. Ideally pilots would get at least twice that amount of flying time in order to be fully proficient in their weapon system.

So restarting the F-22 production line to make good the fighter aircraft shortfall is not the ideal solution. Arguably the cost of the F-22 has wiped out half of the U.S. fighter fleet even before the Russians or Chinese have had a chance to attack it. Simply due to its cost, what was to be a 750-strong fleet stalled at 187 aircraft; of that number, only 123 are ‘combat-coded.’ After the 63 percent availability figure, that means that there is one modern fighter per every 4.1 million Americans. Of course that is not enough. The U.S. Air Force isconsidering buying more F-16 and F-15 fighters. That is not a solution either. As General Mike Hostage, former commander of Air Combat Command said,“If you gave me all the money I needed to refurbish the F-15 and the F-16 fleets, they would still become tactically obsolete by the middle of the next decade. Our adversaries are building fleets that will overmatch our legacy fleet, no matter what I do, by the middle of the next decade.”

The U.S. Air Force has been worshipping at the altar of stealth for over three decades, since the F-117 became operational in 1983. It was considered such a wonderful thing that it was deployed to South Korea in secret, only flew at night and so on. The F-117’s promise was borne out by its performance in Desert Storm in 1991. But things had changed by the end of that same decade. In Operation Allied Force against Serbia in 1999, one F-117 was shot down by a SAM battery and another was mission-killed by the same battery. The stealthy F-117 had a higher loss rate in that conflict than the F-16. It could only operate when it was protected by a pack of other aircraft.


Shaping provides 90 percent of the stealth of the invisibility cloak of a stealth aircraft with the remaining 10 percent coming from the RAM coating. The operational doctrine of the F-22 is based on the F-22 flying around without its radar on and not making any other electronic emissions either. At the same time it is vacuuming up the electronic emissions of enemy aircraft, triangulating their position and then pouncing at a time of its choosing. The world has moved on from that. Stealth, as practiced by the F-22 and F-35, is optimized on radar in the X band from 7.0 to 11.2 gigahertz. Detection in other parts of the electromagnetic spectrum has improved a lot over the last twenty years. Chief of these is infrared search and track (IRST) which enables an F-35 to be detected from its engine exhaust from over 60 miles away. The latest iteration of the Su-27 Flanker family, the Su-35, has IRST and L band radar on its wings. L band and lower frequency radars can see stealthy aircraft over 100 miles away. So an Su-35 can see a F-35 well before the F-35 can detect it. Stealth, as an end in itself, has outlived its usefulness, and maintaining that RAM coating is killing the budget for no good reason.

Right at the moment the U.S. Air Force is heading for a repeat to the start of World War 2 when its fighters got shot down by far better Axis aircraft. The qualitative edge in the small number of F-22s won’t save the day because they will be overwhelmed by the sheer number of Chinese Flanker variants, as per the RAND study of 2008. There is a solution but it means going overseas to get it. That has been done before. In the 1950s, the U.S. Air Force had the English Electic Canberra bomber built under license in the U.S. as the Martin B-57. It was a great design, illustrated by the fact that one B-57 was resurrected after 40 years in the boneyard in Arizona and used for battlefield communications in Afghanistan. Thirty years after the B-57, the Marine Corps fell in love with another UK aircraft, the Harrier, and had it built in the U.S. from 1985 as the McDonnell Douglas AV-8B.

The first F-35 to come off the assembly line was in 2006. That was ten years ago and, even though the F-35 is still years of from going into full production, it needs a $2.6 billion modernisation to upgrade its combat power. The solution to the F-35 nightmare first flew in 2008. This is the Gripen E of Saab in Sweden, updated from the original Gripen A of 1988. It is a delta wing with canards, likely the ideal planform for a single-engine air-superiority fighter. The last time the US Air Force had a delta-wing fighter was the Convair F-106 Delta Dart, retired in 1988. A promising effort that might have resulted in another delta-wing fighter was the F-16XL, a stretched version of the F-16 with a far greater range and bomb load. The F-16XL was sacrificed for the program that ultimately became the F-22.

Simulation has the Gripen E shooting down the Su-35 at almost the same rate that the F-22 does. The Gripen E is estimated to be able to shoot down 1.6 Su-35s for every Gripen E lost, the F-22 is slightly better at 2.0 Su-35s shot down per F-22 lost. In turn the Su-35 is better than the F-35, shooting down 2.4 F-35s for each Su-35 shot down. The Su-35 slaughters the F-18 Super Hornet at the rate of eight to one, as per General Hostage’s comment. How that comes about is explained by the following graphic of instantaneous turn rate plotted against sustained turn rate:

Screen-Shot-2016-01-22-at-5.09.51-PM-620x396.png

Turning, and carrying a gun, remains as important as it has ever been. Most missiles miss in combat and the fighter aircraft will go on to the merge. Assuming that pilot skill is equal, a 2° per second advantage in sustained turn rate will enable the more agile fighter to dominate the engagement. A high instantaneous turn rate is vital in being able to dodge the air-to-air missiles in the first place. The aircraft on the upper right quadrant of the graph will have a higher survival rate. The ones on the lower left quadrant will produce more widows.

The Gripen E has a U.S.-made engine, the GE F414, which is also the engine of the F-18 Super Hornet. The Swedish Air Force is buying its Gripen Es for $43 million per copy, less than one third of the price of the F-35. Its operating cost per hour is less than a tenth of that of the F-35’s. In fact it is the only aircraft that meets the selection criteria of the Joint Advanced Strike Technology program that spawned the F-35: that the acquisition and operating costs be not more than 80 percent of that of legacy aircraft.

Saab’s partner in the U.S. is Boeing, which will be without a fighter offering of its own once the F-18 Super Hornet production line in St Louis closes. It would be surprising if the two companies haven’t discussed bringing the Gripen to America. That would be good news for U.S. power projection in the Western Pacific, and for the families of U.S. airmen.

The story doesn’t end there. At the moment the Su-35 is the fighter to beat. It is almost as large as the F-22, with an empty weight of 18.4 tonnes and a maximum takeoff weight of 34.5 tonnes. Its fuel fraction of 38 percent gives it a combat range of 1,000 miles. The argument for having a large fighter aircraft is that physics makes larger aircraft more capable. Assuming that a smaller aircraft and a larger aircraft have a very similar lift to drag ratio, cruise at the same Mach number and have the same specific fuel consumption, the larger fighter will have about 40 percent better range. An inevitable consequence of the physics of flight is that long range aerial combat demands larger airframes and two engines, all other parameters being equal.

There is a role for a large, agile, twin-engined fighter aircraft in the Western Pacific. Apart from providing air superiority, such a platform would be ideal for delivering long range anti-ship cruise missiles. But this should not be a resurrected F-22. The F-22 program dates from 1991 when its prototype, the YF-22 produced by Lockheed Martin, won the fly-off competition against the YF-23 produced by Northrop, though the YF-23 was faster and stealthier. The U.S. Air Force awarded the contract to Lockheed Martin because it thought that Northrop would not be up to building the B-2 bomber and the new fighter at the same time. Given that the avionics of the F-22 are now over 25 years old, it would be a better outcome from here, for the long term, to go back to the YF-23 airframe and update its engines and avionics. This would produce an aircraft with a weight, acquisition cost and operating cost similar to that of the F-15. It would be as stealthy as possible from shaping without the expense, logistic footprint and low availability of maintaining a RAM coating. Northrop has been awarded the Long Range Strike Bomber program of 80 aircraft at $550 million each. Northrop’s bomber offering is an enlarged, subsonic YF-23. We also need the updated fighter variant.

David Archibald is the author of Twilight of Abundance (Regnery)

@Technogaianist @MilSpec @PARIKRAMA @Taygibay
 
I understand the article looks like an infomercial/advertorial for Gripen - E but are there any valid arguments presented?

@Oscar I have been reading your comments regarding instantaneous turn rates vs sustained ones. How true is the below assertion made in the OP

Screen-Shot-2016-01-22-at-5.09.51-PM-620x396.png

Simulation has the Gripen E shooting down the Su-35 at almost the same rate that the F-22 does. The Gripen E is estimated to be able to shoot down 1.6 Su-35s for every Gripen E lost, the F-22 is slightly better at 2.0 Su-35s shot down per F-22 lost. In turn the Su-35 is better than the F-35, shooting down 2.4 F-35s for each Su-35 shot down. The Su-35 slaughters the F-18 Super Hornet at the rate of eight to one, as per General Hostage’s comment. How that comes about is explained by the following graphic of instantaneous turn rate plotted against sustained turn rate:

Turning, and carrying a gun, remains as important as it has ever been. Most missiles miss in combat and the fighter aircraft will go on to the merge. Assuming that pilot skill is equal, a 2° per second advantage in sustained turn rate will enable the more agile fighter to dominate the engagement. A high instantaneous turn rate is vital in being able to dodge the air-to-air missiles in the first place. The aircraft on the upper right quadrant of the graph will have a higher survival rate. The ones on the lower left quadrant will produce more widows.
 
I understand the article looks like an infomercial/advertorial for Gripen - E but are there any valid arguments presented?

@Oscar I have been reading your comments regarding instantaneous turn rates vs sustained ones. How true is the below assertion made in the OP

Screen-Shot-2016-01-22-at-5.09.51-PM-620x396.png

Simulation has the Gripen E shooting down the Su-35 at almost the same rate that the F-22 does. The Gripen E is estimated to be able to shoot down 1.6 Su-35s for every Gripen E lost, the F-22 is slightly better at 2.0 Su-35s shot down per F-22 lost. In turn the Su-35 is better than the F-35, shooting down 2.4 F-35s for each Su-35 shot down. The Su-35 slaughters the F-18 Super Hornet at the rate of eight to one, as per General Hostage’s comment. How that comes about is explained by the following graphic of instantaneous turn rate plotted against sustained turn rate:

Turning, and carrying a gun, remains as important as it has ever been. Most missiles miss in combat and the fighter aircraft will go on to the merge. Assuming that pilot skill is equal, a 2° per second advantage in sustained turn rate will enable the more agile fighter to dominate the engagement. A high instantaneous turn rate is vital in being able to dodge the air-to-air missiles in the first place. The aircraft on the upper right quadrant of the graph will have a higher survival rate. The ones on the lower left quadrant will produce more widows.

A bit exaggerated. Most missiles do not miss in combat anymore.
Instantaneous has the other advantage of quicker nose pointing, but the newer missiles with higher off boresight systems make it pretty much moot.

Ridiculous naysayers of the F-35 tend to be like Trump supporters. Parroting the same argument that has little technical basis again and again. The F-35's systems ensure that all the pilot has to do is look and shoot, its missiles are augmented by the most sophisticated Infrared tracking system in the world.

You put all that together, it means that the F-35 will be swatting Su-35's out of the sky.

The think tank studies and all are sponsored and paid for by various lobbies and the like. Take their words with a grain of salt.
 
A bit exaggerated. Most missiles do not miss in combat anymore.
Instantaneous has the other advantage of quicker nose pointing, but the newer missiles with higher off boresight systems make it pretty much moot.

Ridiculous naysayers of the F-35 tend to be like Trump supporters. Parroting the same argument that has little technical basis again and again. The F-35's systems ensure that all the pilot has to do is look and shoot, its missiles are augmented by the most sophisticated Infrared tracking system in the world.

You put all that together, it means that the F-35 will be swatting Su-35's out of the sky.

The think tank studies and all are sponsored and paid for by various lobbies and the like. Take their words with a grain of salt.

Forgive me if I am just rehashing the old arguments but the argument as per the 2011 RAND study goes like this

RAND’s discussion begins by predicting poorer beyond visual range missile kill performance than current models suggest when facing capable enemy aircraft, observing that BVR missile kills since the 1990s generally involved poorly-equipped targets. It also notes the steep rise and then drop in modern infrared missile performance, as countermeasures improved.

Meanwhile, key radar advances are already deployed in the most advanced Russian surface-to-air missile systems, and existing IRST (infra-red scan and track) systems deployed on advanced Russian and European fighters are extending enemy detection ranges against radar-stealthy aircraft. Fighter radar pick-up capability of up to 25 nautical miles is proposed against even ultra-stealthy aircraft like the F-22, coupled with IRST ability to identify AMRAAM missile firings and less infrared-stealthy aircraft at 50 nautical miles or more.

In other words, we might now be achieving BVR kills against third-rate vastly outnumbered opponents while enjoying pervasive AWACS coverage. But that is a far cry from getting kills against equally skilled peer competitors in contested air space where we may be outnumbered in terms of both planes and missiles

Going forward, assuming huge kill ratios predicated on BVR missile technology looks even less wise: We have no record of successfully using such technology against peer competitors with the training and technology to dramatically reduce BVR missile effectiveness (like, say, the Russians’ Su-35S).


 
Stealth does not work in actual combat as proved by yugoslavs. The more the cost of a weapon, the more PR bullshit around it. Buying rafale would defintely wipe half the strength of Indian air force.
 
A bit exaggerated. Most missiles do not miss in combat anymore.
Instantaneous has the other advantage of quicker nose pointing, but the newer missiles with higher off boresight systems make it pretty much moot.

Ridiculous naysayers of the F-35 tend to be like Trump supporters. Parroting the same argument that has little technical basis again and again. The F-35's systems ensure that all the pilot has to do is look and shoot, its missiles are augmented by the most sophisticated Infrared tracking system in the world.

You put all that together, it means that the F-35 will be swatting Su-35's out of the sky.

The think tank studies and all are sponsored and paid for by various lobbies and the like. Take their words with a grain of salt.
Good talk I want to ad this to it if you don't mind I think maneuverability is from the past unless all you have is your gun then the better maneuver one the winner one but as long as you still have enough missiles with better HMS and better visibility you are the winner.

So, the JF-17 for instance with latest HMS and missiles can do the job like the best maneuverable fighter.
 
So the writer means that if US buys new F16 block 61 or F15 SE or F18SH, will cause a doom to USAF , but if they buy Gripen E, problem solved??
Lol but GripenE is still a paper aircraft and F16, F15 and F18s are flying.
 
So the writer means that if US buys new F16 block 61 or F15 SE or F18SH, will cause a doom to USAF , but if they buy Gripen E, problem solved??
Lol but GripenE is still a paper aircraft and F16, F15 and F18s are flying.

The basic structure for E remains the same. Which means the Swedes will have it out in no time. It is just bigger and can carry more fuel and weapons with a powerful radar. The design is still the same.

That makes all the difference.
 
The basic structure for E remains the same. Which means the Swedes will have it out in no time. It is just bigger and can carry more fuel and weapons with a powerful radar. The design is still the same.

That makes all the difference.

This is what SAAB said in 2012 while they pitched Gripen to Brazil.
They said they will make a fighter ,from NG version to Brazil customised E/F version for an affordable price. And promised first flight by 2015.

We are already in 2016, with the schedule pushed back to 2019 and cost more than 90 million dollars.

And why should US go for Italian AESA? I think they are themselves capable of producing better AESA? Isn't it?
 
That chart has mixed up instantaneous and sustained turn rates for the Gripen.
If it was for real, everyone would have bought that Swedish meatball dish regardless of whether
the meat in it was halal or not!

Turn Performance Sustained - approx. 20 deg/sec. Instantaneous - approx. 30 deg/sec.
http://www.fighter-planes.com/info/jas39.htm

Just another confused journo; SNAFU and all that!
Great day all, Tay.
 
That chart has mixed up instantaneous and sustained turn rates for the Gripen.
If it was for real, everyone would have bought that Swedish meatball dish regardless of whether
the meat in it was halal or not!

Turn Performance Sustained - approx. 20 deg/sec. Instantaneous - approx. 30 deg/sec.
http://www.fighter-planes.com/info/jas39.htm

Just another confused journo; SNAFU and all that!
Great day all, Tay.

Merci Beaucoup - The thread appears pointless now that you have pointed out that the data is in-correct. Damn! No ethics these days.
 
YVW mate! And yes, information improved in volume since the Internet appeared . . .
but as in all communicating vessels cases, the truth to noise ratio slacked by as much!

Good evening to you, Tay.
 

Latest posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom