Air defence boost: Indian Air Force gets first Indo-Israeli missile

[DJ_Viper]

The disparity is actually more like

2.8 trillion GDP v 280 billion GDP
650 billion forex versis $17 billion forex
$2000 per capita versis $1300 per capita
$49 billion versis $9 bllion defense budget or (65billion versis $12 billion if you include pensions etc)

" The ability to maintain, constantly upgrade, train and fight and sustain a war of any duration is entirely based on resources "

The topic is about the induction of a jointly developed Indo israeli MRSAM missle system entering indian service soon.
Some people decided to tell us india is falling or struggling to modernise
I mean seriously
Do i need to list the 10 or 12 major systems just in last 24 months worth billions $$$

Again, you wrote more and more. What's the point? I never got an a clear answer. Would you respond to my question?

 

[The Maverick]

Again, you wrote more and more. What's the point? I never got an a clear answer. Would you respond to my question?

Your Answer is in the reponse
There is no comparison The resources are far too wide for fair comparison

 

[Yasser76]

I think your comment needs dissecting

India had confirmed orders
156 new fighters.with 50 delivered so far ie 26 Rafale and 24. Tejas.
Pakistan confirmed orders 30 block 3 not one delivered yet and 14 block b delivered ie,44 fighters
India,has s400 delivery starting November
pakistan nil.sam confirmed orders,
India has cleared finance for awacs and c295 transports,
pakistan no such clearance or funds evident
I.think India is doing ok

You did not "dissect" my comment, you changed topic completely.

I am talking about ACTUAL FIGHTER AIRCRAFT DELIVERIES. Not what MAY come in the future. Bascically every large air force on earth constantly needs a stream of new jets being delivered in order to avoid block obsolesence, down the line. USAF, RAF, France, Russia, China are constantly inducting new fighters all the time. Now IAF has around 600-700 new planes. 200-250 of them very old (Jaguars and MIG--21s), at the current rate of new delveries (zero Tejas and maybe 2-3 more Rafales) it will be a very long time before the old sqaudrons are replaced (unless there is a massive and sudden induction of modern fighters likes was planned with MRCA competition). Tejas looks like almost no aircraft this year and (very optimistic option) maybe 6-8 next year. Also next year no more Rafales (all will be delivered and no follow on order signed)

So IAF will have 2 options. Fly Jaguars and MIG-21S beyond 2025 or lose 8-10 squadrons of fighters, thereby coming down to a squadron size of around 20 squadrons.

SAMS/Transport planes nothing to do with the point I am making. As each year goes buy with many new fresh planes average age of IAF fighters is going up.

 

[The Maverick]

You did not "dissect" my comment, you changed topic completely.

I am talking about ACTUAL FIGHTER AIRCRAFT DELIVERIES. Not what MAY come in the future. Bascically every large air force on earth constantly needs a stream of new jets being delivered in order to avoid block obsolesence, down the line. USAF, RAF, France, Russia, China are constantly inducting new fighters all the time. Now IAF has around 600-700 new planes. 200-250 of them very old (Jaguars and MIG--21s), at the current rate of new delveries (zero Tejas and maybe 2-3 more Rafales) it will be a very long time before the old sqaudrons are replaced (unless there is a massive and sudden induction of modern fighters likes was planned with MRCA competition). Tejas looks like almost no aircraft this year and (very optimistic option) maybe 6-8 next year. Also next year no more Rafales (all will be delivered and no follow on order signed)

So IAF will have 2 options. Fly Jaguars and MIG-21S beyond 2025 or lose 8-10 squadrons of fighters, thereby coming down to a squadron size of around 20 squadrons.

SAMS/Transport planes nothing to do with the point I am making. As each year goes buy with many new fresh planes average age of IAF fighters is going up.

down to 20 squadrons you say by 2025

13 mki
2 Rafale
2 tejas
3 mig29
3 mirage 2000

that's,23 sqds
we,have upgraded 55 jaguar to darin 3 which is 3 more,sqds to retain until.2030

you have forgotten the 83 Tejas mark 1a.
delivery starting 2024.. but this,will.go on to 2030.

The iaf are aware of falling numbers and have discussed contingency

20 mig29upg as a,single order due to low cost easy training
36 more Rafale f4 very costly but big push for this happening in 2022 with delivery starting 2025.

no matter what happens 3 sqds of Jaguar to remain until.2030.
which means 26 sqds at worst case
with tejas mark1a ramping up production and more rafales.

do not doubt our finances,yasser
we just,recorded forex at 640 billion dollars.and signed off funding for
next gen subs
c295 transports,and netra 2 Awacs,.
This funding will.continue
pakistan is in dire straights no funding and no concrete options other than China. western options dead in water..
150 to 200 obselete mirages,and f7 and 50 cold war era f16 coming up to 4th decade of service as they arrived 15 years,before our mki ie the 1990 versus 2004

 

[Yasser76]

down to 20 squadrons you say by 2025

13 mki
2 Rafale
2 tejas
3 mig29
3 mirage 2000

that's,23 sqds
we,have upgraded 55 jaguar to darin 3 which is 3 more,sqds to retain until.2030

you have forgotten the 83 Tejas mark 1a.
delivery starting 2024.. but this,will.go on to 2030.

The iaf are aware of falling numbers and have discussed contingency

20 mig29upg as a,single order due to low cost easy training
36 more Rafale f4 very costly but big push for this happening in 2022 with delivery starting 2025.

no matter what happens 3 sqds of Jaguar to remain until.2030.
which means 26 sqds at worst case
with tejas mark1a ramping up production and more rafales.

do not doubt our finances,yasser
we just,recorded forex at 640 billion dollars.and signed off funding for
next gen subs
c295 transports,and netra 2 Awacs,.
This funding will.continue
pakistan is in dire straights no funding and no concrete options other than China. western options dead in water..
150 to 200 obselete mirages,and f7 and 50 cold war era f16 coming up to 4th decade of service as they arrived 15 years,before our mki ie the 1990 versus 2004

Again, you skirt around the issue and type a lot without taking on my facts.

23 squadrons maybe, I would say possibly 22 taking into account attrition.

The current situation has come about as everything the IAF planned about 5-10 years ago (and fanboys of your ilk were boasting about on this forum back then) did not come about.

IAF was (by now) due to look like

13 SU-30 Sqds
8 Rafale/MRCA sqds
8 Tejas sqds
3 Mirage 2k sqds
3 MIG-20 sqds

= 35 sqds and very powerful.

The mess up by HAL on Tejas and the lack of funds for MRCA killed these planes, hence you are now looking at 23 Sqds in 3-4 years. The smallest the IAF has every been.

Of course numbers do not paint the entire picture, as we have seen IAF is throwing many assets *Rafales, MIGS, SUs) at LAC, high tempo operational flying will increase wear and tear on current assets, leading to lower serciability in the long term.

Happy to talk about PAF in PAF thread, needless to say tempo of JF-17 induction has been about 1 sqd per year approx, for an air force half the IAF size that puts it in a much better position modernisation wise

 

[The Maverick]

Again, you skirt around the issue and type a lot without taking



Happy to talk about PAF in PAF thread, needless to say tempo of JF-17 induction has been about 1 sqd per year approx, for an air force half the IAF size that puts it in a much better position modernisation wise

love this comment
55 mlu f16
18 block 52
120 mark a and b thunders no hmd or composite airframe or true all.aspect fbw

leaving 55 f7 PG
perhaps 100 mirage legacy over 5 decades old

The only concrete approved new induction on.books 30 block 3 thunders between 2022 and 2024

is that a modern fleet

even this does not begin to tell.us the true state of pak readiness or lack.of
severe financial.constraints means spares parts maintenance will.be impacted.
relations with USA compromising readiness of f16 no future f16 in sight . your current f16 bar block 52 x 18 planes are themselves obselete soon..
no modern.sam.and anti abm defense system.and no hope of investment in this area
transports,and logistics tiny way too.small.to support huge foot soldier army of 600000 men. completely stationary no flexibility to bring in supplies and resources to differentl.theatres,..

just look.at our example in.ladakh how we moved and equipped over 150000 men in.2 months into the north .
why because we invested in this equipment

you so inadequate in this area and missle defense against huge future missle and drone threat of India,

 

[Yasser76]

love this comment
55 mlu f16
18 block 52
120 mark a and b thunders no hmd or composite airframe or true all.aspect fbw

leaving 55 f7 PG
perhaps 100 mirage legacy over 5 decades old

The only concrete approved new induction on.books 30 block 3 thunders between 2022 and 2024

is that a modern fleet

Again, you are missing the point (deliberately so or you simply do not understand), you can talk as much as you want about orders and what may come, PAF have been ordering in tranches and enough to keep PAC line constantly busy. For last 5 years we have been churning out 16 odd planes a year, and on course for another 16 this year and next.

However this derails the IAF thread (perhaps that was your intention so as to not focus on IAF), lets chat in JF-17 thread (if you have the balls).

Simple fact is for next few years IAF will have a trickle, literally handful) of new fighters being delivered, and if IAF attrition is anything to go by, it could well be that by the time last Rafales is delivered, you will actually be losing more fighters then receiving news ones.

If HAL continue to deliver just 6 planes a year and IAF attrition continues at current rate, then you will be losing 10 planes a year and only getting 6 Tejas a year. IAF will actually be getting smaller and smaller as each year goes by, and that is not even taking into account MIG-21 and Jag retirement.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Again, you are missing the point (deliberately so or you simply do not understand), you can talk as much as you want about orders and what may come, PAF have been ordering in tranches and enough to keep PAC line constantly busy. For last 5 years we have been churning out 16 odd planes a year, and on course for another 16 this year and next.

However this derails the IAF thread (perhaps that was your intention so as to not focus on IAF), lets chat in JF-17 thread (if you have the balls).

Simple fact is for next few years IAF will have a trickle, literally handful) of new fighters being delivered, and if IAF attrition is anything to go by, it could well be that by the time last Rafales is delivered, you will actually be losing more fighters then receiving news ones.

If HAL continue to deliver just 6 planes a year and IAF attrition continues at current rate, then you will be losing 10 planes a year and only getting 6 Tejas a year. IAF will actually be getting smaller and smaller as each year goes by, and that is not even taking into account MIG-21 and Jag retirement.

1st you need to understand that we need 42 fighter plane squadrons to fight a two-front war.

If you just talk about PAF then, anyday IAF has more fighter planes including 4th Gen fighters than PAF.. Wherein, PAF has less 4th Gen fighter planes...

But when we talk about India vs china, we need more 4th and also 5th gen fighter planes...

Up to 2025, fighter plane squadrons will be remain between 20-25 but then it will start getting increase by inducting many fighters i.e HAL Tejas MK1a from 2024, HAL Tejas MK2 - 2025/26... and so on..

So, we don't have many issues waiting for 4-5 years... Meanwhile, Rafale is coming and HAL Tejas MK1 which is similarly capable to JF17 block 2 is also coming.. we are ok with that..

 

[The Maverick]

1st you need to understand that we need 42 fighter plane squadrons to fight a two-front war.

If you just talk about PAF then, anyday IAF has more fighter planes including 4th Gen fighters than PAF.. Wherein, PAF has less 4th Gen fighter planes...

But when we talk about India vs china, we need more 4th and also 5th gen fighter planes...

Up to 2025, fighter plane squadrons will be remain between 20-25 but then it will start getting increase by inducting many fighters i.e HAL Tejas MK1a from 2024, HAL Tejas MK2 - 2025/26... and so on..

So, we don't have many issues waiting for 4-5 years... Meanwhile, Rafale is coming and HAL Tejas MK1 which is similarly capable to JF17 block 2 is also coming.. we are ok with that..

Yasser is more aware of our plans and finances then most of us combined.
He likes to play devils,advocate
Your numbers,are falling
You only delivered 6 last year
You have attrition each year

he knows all.too well
India is,delivering 156 new fighters,to.india between 2018 and 2028. possibly 2029
36 Rafale .. 26 delivered
123 Tejas of this 24 deliverd
he knows we have the means to order.more Rafale which I believe will.happen in 2022 f4 version delivery 2025

he likes,to spin a narrative
is,being by some miracle pak is modernising quicker than India
the only issue it's mostly outdated fighters bar 18 block.52.
I mean jf17 ......is he serious

 

[Yasser76]

1st you need to understand that we need 42 fighter plane squadrons to fight a two-front war.

If you just talk about PAF then, anyday IAF has more fighter planes including 4th Gen fighters than PAF.. Wherein, PAF has less 4th Gen fighter planes...

But when we talk about India vs china, we need more 4th and also 5th gen fighter planes...

Up to 2025, fighter plane squadrons will be remain between 20-25 but then it will start getting increase by inducting many fighters i.e HAL Tejas MK1a from 2024, HAL Tejas MK2 - 2025/26... and so on..

So, we don't have many issues waiting for 4-5 years... Meanwhile, Rafale is coming and HAL Tejas MK1 which is similarly capable to JF17 block 2 is also coming.. we are ok with that..

Right, so you need 42 sqds and you will be a size of around 22/23 sqds once MIG-21s/Jaguars go. The whole point of my posts (if you had bothered to read them properly) is CURRENT not PROJECTED but CURRENT deliveries will mean you will be around 20 sqds short. Any one can make positive projections (you have been doing that for past 5-10 years), but CURRENT delivery rate means you have no chance against China.

Take out the 36 Rafales (a very good plane by all accounts) and PAF are more then comfortable with the Block III/PL-15 combo against the IAF.

If you are "OK" with that, trust me PAF with it's infrastructure, networking, AEW and experience, and rate of fighter inductions is very "OK" too, glad we agree.

 

[Riz]

According to the latest information, the half of dozen BVRs which SU-30mki dodged were most probably Israeli spyder SAMs

 

[Yasser76]

Yasser is more aware of our plans and finances then most of us combined.
He likes to play devils,advocate
Your numbers,are falling
You only delivered 6 last year
You have attrition each year

he knows all.too well
India is,delivering 156 new fighters,to.india between 2018 and 2028. possibly 2029
36 Rafale .. 26 delivered
123 Tejas of this 24 deliverd
he knows we have the means to order.more Rafale which I believe will.happen in 2022 f4 version delivery 2025

he likes,to spin a narrative
is,being by some miracle pak is modernising quicker than India
the only issue it's mostly outdated fighters bar 18 block.52.
I mean jf17 ......is he serious

Not bright are you? You just proved my point for me.

156 planes over 10 years is about 15 planes a year. Take into account attrition and probably only barely keeping numbers the same, takle into account MIG-21/Jag retirement by 2028 and you are much much smaller, going by the very figures you just posted above. Most of the Rafale deliveries are done, SU-30 production finished and zero Tejas being delivered. Unless you start delivering more planes in addition to Tejas very very quickly numbers will drop massively very soon.

Iti is not a narrative I have created my friend, IAF chiefs for last 10 years have been warning this situation may come about, no one listened to them and now their predictions are about top come true

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Right, so you need 42 sqds and you will be a size of around 22/23 sqds once MIG-21s/Jaguars go. The whole point of my posts (if you had bothered to read them properly) is CURRENT not PROJECTED but CURRENT deliveries will mean you will be around 20 sqds short. Any one can make positive projections (you have been doing that for past 5-10 years), but CURRENT delivery rate means you have no chance against China.

Take out the 36 Rafales (a very good plane by all accounts) and PAF are more then comfortable with the Block III/PL-15 combo against the IAF.

If you are "OK" with that, trust me PAF with it's infrastructure, networking, AEW and experience, and rate of fighter inductions is very "OK" too, glad we agree.

YOU just said, current not projected... Has JF block 3 with PL-15 delivered?

If you talk on that sense that HAL Tejas Mk1a with astra missile block 2 (150 KM) with the same similar capabilities will deal with PAF F- 16 and Jf 17 block 3.......

Jf 17 block 3 and F 16 is not going to deal with the only Rafale... They have to deal with other IAF fighters, Tejas MK1a, and others equipped with 150 KM missiles.

 

[Wood]

The first thought that came to my mind on reading this news is the downed helicopter on February 2019. One can only hope that IAF has learned how unprepared and callous they have been and revised their procedural checks.

 

[Yasser76]

YOU just said, current not projected... Has JF block 3 with PL-15 delivered?

If you talk on that sense that HAL Tejas Mk1a with astra missile block 2 (150 KM) with the same similar capabilities will deal with PAF F- 16 and Jf 17 block 3.......

Jf 17 block 3 and F 16 is not going to deal with the only Rafale... They have to deal with other IAF fighters, Tejas MK1a, and others equipped with 150 KM missiles.

IAF has nothing that outranges the PL-15. Nothing, not even Meteor. PL-15 was specfically designed to outrange anything in service.

There are literally pics of 10-12 Block 15s in final stages of asemmbly, if you have been following the news on JF-17 (which seems like you have not) you will realise PAC deliver in batchs of between 12-16, as opposed to HAL which delivers (to much fanfare) one plane as soon as it is assmebled.

If we go by the last years you can expect a big batch anytime now. If we go with HAL average production last year it was....2 planes?

This is not hill you want to die on, trust me....