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ADB Reports Pakistan's Middle Class Larger Than India's

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You mean the ADB's data is wrong? Is that your contention, sir? Have you evidence to give credence to your contention? For instance, have you ADB data that the ADB suggests may be flawed? - careful now, I'm not talking about the Google frenzy posted in previous pages citing politcal rivals claiming Musharraf regime fudged numbers, I want ADB numbers, after all we are discussing the ADB report, right?
i had given you ADB numbers...but u didn't reply. why?? post no 120. since the report is based on 2005 data, now it is 2010. just read the whole report before calling others google frenzy.
 
@Muse I am not having a habit of using google links and forgetting facts on ground. I know that more than 50% of people on India does not report their right income. I personally know that a lot of people claiming to be in below poverty line are not poor and they get their BPL certificate. So when there is no database in India which has accurate data where did ADB got it's data. Point to note Mr Haq started this thread with ADB link and hence it is his responsibility to prove that ADB has right data and how they got it.
 
I have just seen RH is all over the net..
He like Rupee news and Pakistan nationalist and many other sponsored anti India and hate India sites ae active..:lol:
 
Point to note Mr Haq started this thread with ADB link and hence it is his responsibility to prove that ADB has right data and how they got it.


You make the charge that the info is inaccurate, how then is it Mr. Haq's responsibility to prove your contention? What planet is this?

You have to be fair, your contention that Indians are tax cheats is no the responsibility of anyone other than you to prove - similarly your contention that incomes have not been accurately listed, is your responsibility to prove -- generally speaking, one does not make charges and then expect the accused to prove the charges - it's not just homey don't play that, no one plays that.
 
@Muse don't believe me, like I said I do not believe in using google and giving a link for something so widely known. On top of it I am using a phone which does not allow me to copy paste link. If you search u will find it, I know this is known truth and applicable in Pakistan too. If you want proof of something you already know then it's not worth arguing with you.
 
So when there is no database in India which has accurate data where did ADB got it's data. Point to note Mr Haq started this thread with ADB link and hence it is his responsibility to prove that ADB has right data and how they got it.

@indianrabbit

This will answer your question
ADB says the ranks of India’s middle class, defined as those consuming between $2 and $20 per day (based on survey data in 2005 purchasing power parity dollars), grew by around 205 million between 1990 and 2008, second only to the People’s Republic of China.

India's Middle Class Driving Innovation, Consumption, But Still Vulnerable - Report

So obviously your concerns seem correct. There are no indications on the survey questions or who were given the survey.
One thing to note, the survey probably did not include everybody in Pakistan as well. So the above concerns hold true for them as well.
 
guys if you read the whole report..u will find that at page no. 16, it is projected that by 2010 Indian middle class would be around 315million. end of discussion.
 
c'mon guys.. Why are you fighting it? So Pakistan in 2005 had a higher percentage of its population consuming between $2 and $ 20 than that in India in 2005. Even if you ignore the dated nature of the data, which neither factors in the rise of Indian economics post 2004 nor the catastrophic decline in Pakistani economics post 2007 and move a little further down in the same report, it projects India having the largest middle class in Asia by 2030 growing by over 41% from today. Pakistan's middle class in the same period is only expected to grow by 21% or so.

So instead of being hung up on the past where 5 years back Pakistan had a higher % of people in this consumption bracket, I would rather look at the forward progression that looks great for India.

After all, if you go back enough in past, you can also find time period where Pakistan used to grow faster than India and had a higher per capita income than India. Does any of that matter now?
 
guys if you read the whole report..u will find that at page no. 16, it is projected that by 2010 Indian middle class would be around 315million. end of discussion.


I think the point some of us are missing is the impact of the middle class on India. Pakistan does have a greater middle class, atleast as of 2005. Can't say anything about the numbers in 2010 but the impact of the middle class on India's economy is obviously greater since there are more number of people. India today is already the 12th biggest consumer market. I also think the data does not do justice in capturing house hold income with middle class employed in services including manufacturing and IT. The pay scales is quite good .. I would suggest every body read "The golden Bird" to understand the impact of India's middle class on Indian economy and the world economy. It goes about in detail on how the middle class will also power the status of the poor. India could become the 5 largest consumer market by 2025 even by conservative estimates. In fact MNBC was advising people to pick up stocks in India..especially the lower ones that serve the middle class as roti, masala etc etc.
 
The thing is if, does any one care about Pakistans present economy or really wants to know?
Even if the floods are not taken into consideration the shape of economy is terrible-

A CIA report.

http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/pakistan/pakistan_economy.html


GEOGRAPHICAL NAMES
Page last updated on January 26, 2010
Economy - overview:
Pakistan, an impoverished and underdeveloped country, has suffered from decades of internal political disputes and low levels of foreign investment. Between 2001-07, however, poverty levels decreased by 10%, as Islamabad steadily raised development spending. Between 2004-07, GDP growth in the 5-8% range was spurred by gains in the industrial and service sectors - despite severe electricity shortfalls - but growth slowed in 2008-09 and unemployment rose. Inflation remains the top concern among the public, jumping from 7.7% in 2007 to 20.8% in 2008, and 14.2% in 2009. In addition, the Pakistani rupee has depreciated since 2007 as a result of political and economic instability. The government agreed to an International Monetary Fund Standby Arrangement in November 2008 in response to a balance of payments crisis, but during 2009 its current account strengthened and foreign exchange reserves stabilized - largely because of lower oil prices and record remittances from workers abroad. Textiles account for most of Pakistan's export earnings, but Pakistan's failure to expand a viable export base for other manufactures have left the country vulnerable to shifts in world demand. Other long term challenges include expanding investment in education, healthcare, and electricity production, and reducing dependence on foreign donors.

GDP (purchasing power parity):
$448.1 billion (2009 est.)

$436.4 billion (2008 est.)
$422 billion (2007 est.)
note: data are in 2009 US dollars
[see also: GDP (purchasing power parity) country ranks ]
GDP (official exchange rate):
$166.5 billion (2009 est.)
[see also: GDP (official exchange rate) country ranks ]

GDP - real growth rate:
2.7% (2009 est.)

3.4% (2008 est.)
6% (2007 est.)
[see also: GDP - real growth rate country ranks ]
GDP - per capita (PPP):
$2,600 (2009 est.)

$2,500 (2008 est.)
$2,500 (2007 est.)
note: data are in 2009 US dollars
[see also: GDP - per capita country ranks ]
 
I think the point some of us are missing is the impact of the middle class on India. Pakistan does have a greater middle class, atleast as of 2005. Can't say anything about the numbers in 2010 but the impact of the middle class on India's economy is obviously greater since there are more number of people. India today is already the 12th biggest consumer market. I also think the data does not do justice in capturing house hold income with middle class employed in services including manufacturing and IT. The pay scales is quite good .. I would suggest every body read "The golden Bird" to understand the impact of India's middle class on Indian economy and the world economy. It goes about in detail on how the middle class will also power the status of the poor. India could become the 5 largest consumer market by 2025 even by conservative estimates. In fact MNBC was advising people to pick up stocks in India..especially the lower ones that serve the middle class as roti, masala etc etc.
i agreed with you, if u see my previous posts i also raised the same points. in mumbai i talked to auto driver how much you earn, so most of the drivers told me 15000 to 17000 a month. this is too much boys.
 
DAWN.COM | Business | ADB report says Pakistan ?living beyond its means?


ADB report says Pakistan ‘living beyond its means’ By Amin Ahmed
Wednesday, 03 Jun, 2009 Persistent inflation has plagued the country despite all efforts — AP/File photo. Business

The city that never sleeps RAWALPINDI: The country’s burgeoning current account deficit indicates Pakistan was ‘living beyond its means’ with excessive domestic demand boosting imports and fuelling the inflation which restrict exports, according to the Asian Development Bank in its latest report on the economic crisis of Pakistan.

This orthodox interpretation of the external financial situation of the country presumes the current account deficit must be ‘financed’ by flows of foreign reserves, which for the most part must be attracted by high returns and a stable political, economic and social environment, says the report titled: ‘A Reinterpretation of Pakistan’s Economic Crisis and Options for Policy Makers.’

The worsening trade account implies that local Pakistani consumption became dependent on the whims of foreign lenders. Further, given its large budget deficit, the government is said to be increasingly dependent on the foreign purchases of its debt to supplement domestic savers’ purchases of government debt.

The report warns if Pakistan cannot attract these needed reserves, it must slow its growth to reduce imports; lowering prices and wages could also encourage exports.



Thus, both monetary and fiscal policy ought to be tightened to encourage such capital flows even as this reduces the need for them, the report suggests.

Summing up how Pakistan’s new government doing in dealing with the current crisis, and setting the economy on a sustainable course, the report says the national government was trying to implement a series of measures to stabilize the economy and in this way set the basis for a successful recovery. At the same time it was trying to deal with the inflation problem.

The report recommended that tax and spending reform should be formulated to accomplish economic, social, and political objectives rather than to hit a deficit target. The government will find it very difficult to achieve its budget deficit target even if it were to cut spending on social services like education, health, etc. and development expenditures drastically.

This is because such draconian cuts would likely throw the economy into a deep recession that would reduce tax revenues. If this were done, it would have serious repercussions for the country’s political stability and for its future. A better strategy would be to negotiate with multilateral agencies a programme that would allow the country to service its external debt, and gradually reduce its trade deficit until it reaches a more manageable level. During this time, the structure of spending should be analyzed, and a realistic development program should be devised.

While referring to the recent agreement with IMF, the report opine that that there was still latitude within the constrained policy environment to pursue more sustainable outcomes than those established by the limited horizons set by the IMF agreement. Further, says the report, the IMF programme does not correctly portray the source of the inflation pressures, or the constraints on economic development.

It says Pakistan needs to foster conditions that will reduce its dependence on imports. The growth and development path chosen will make a difference to the country’s capacity to import. However, the orthodox solution to a current account deficit will actually make it more difficult for Pakistan to reduce dependence on imports.

Giving its assessment of the current situation in Pakistan, the report says growth by itself is not an adequate goal given the needs of the country. Policy must be designed to pursue the goal of full employment, price stability, and equity. While Pakistan’s latest growth experience during 2004–2007 initially led to high growth, it has now become clear that this growth model failed to address the main problems afflicting the Pakistani economy.

A crisis of confidence in the government prevails that was unable to undertake strong economic measures, such as creating jobs, solving the power and water shortages, and relieving poverty. There is also an inability to keep inflation in check, a neglect of some important components of the supply side of the economy, perceived inability to address the increasing fiscal and current account deficits that are believed in many quarters to be undesirable, and inadequate response to security threats.

The report recommends Pakistan must continue to seek international funds, while negotiating for minimal conditionalities. It is highly likely that the IMF will continue to provide loans as needed, but with conditions that include fiscal restraint.



Unfortunately, this is a risky time for budget cuts, which would entail both economic and political repercussions. Significant budget cuts can only be made in areas of military spending, food and fuel subsidies, pensions, or development. For obvious reasons, cuts in all of these areas would be problematic.

The alternative is to raise taxes – again a highly problematic policy for a nation whose growth was already slowing even before the global crisis generated recession throughout much of the world. The economic and political situation had not improved in the recent weeks and the government has requested further assistance from the international community.

The report points to a reduction domestic currency debt service or domestic debt relief. Debt service alone will likely absorb more than half of all government revenue. Cutting the SBP’s target interest rate would free more revenue than is likely to be obtained either by draconian cuts to other spending or by huge increases to tax rates.

In the context of the immediate urgency imposed by the foreign currency reserve crisis that most likely will last at least through 2009–2010, the ADB recognizes the reality that short-term policy options will be heavily conditioned by the IMF arrangement. However, the Bank believes that there could be some room to consider elements of a ‘debt relief’ strategy within the IMF arrangement, as well as pursuing a range of fruitful strategies even though the IMF agreement has been signed.

For the medium-term, the report suggests a package of policies that includes reorient emphasis towards employment-creating policies and away from growth for-its-own-sake policies; reformulate tax and transfer policy; address the external deficit and the fall in international reserves in a manner that does not lead to domestic stagnation, unemployment, and poverty.

The government should seek debt relief and especially gradual elimination of foreign-currency-denominated debt. The government should diversify the country’s export basket with a view to promoting those sectors that will lead to sustainable economic development in the long run.

A well-designed export-led growth strategy can play an important role in the country’s development. The aim of this development strategy is not to direct domestic resources toward production for external consumers instead of using them to produce for domestic consumption. The objective of this programme is to reduce import reliance and limit the external debt drains on foreign reserves, the report says.
 
Surging public debt: a critical situation
The only economic policy of the country seems to be borrowing money from donor agencies and turning it into a beggars’ nation. The recent loans would incur almost $6 billion interest repayments and if more is borrowed, the future generations will have to endure severe consequences for our negligence

By Dr. Noor Fatima

http://jang.com.pk/thenews/jul2010-weekly/busrev-12-07-2010/p3.htm

Every where on the net, its all gloom, there is hardly any point to compare India with Pakistan.
 
Surging public debt: a critical situation
The only economic policy of the country seems to be borrowing money from donor agencies and turning it into a beggars’ nation. The recent loans would incur almost $6 billion interest repayments and if more is borrowed, the future generations will have to endure severe consequences for our negligence

By Dr. Noor Fatima

jang.com.pk - Security Verification

Every where on the net, its all gloom, there is hardly any point to compare India with Pakistan.

Most countries of the world, including India, have higher debt-to-gdp ratios and bigger budget deficits as percent of gdp than Pakistan. And most have larger middle class as percent of population than India or Pakistan.
 
Most countries of the world, including India, have higher debt-to-gdp ratios and bigger budget deficits as percent of gdp than Pakistan. And most have larger middle class as percent of population than India or Pakistan.

Apart from Debt to GDP ratio, a bigger burden on any economy is the debt service cost of the external debt that country has taken. Now as a percentage of govt revenue, Pakistan's Debt service cost is at a whooping 28% as against India's 8%.

An Interesting article in Dawn on the same
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/business/debt-servicing-claims-$5.6bn-780

Some exerpts from the above

Pakistan paid a staggering $5.6 billion as debt servicing during the last fiscal ended on June 30, which was 43 per cent of the official foreign exchange reserves of the country

This massive payment was possible mainly because of continued higher inflows from IMF, overseas Pakistanis, US aid and loans from other donor agencies.

The higher debt servicing has been a serious problem for the country which used to force governments in Pakistan to get emergency help from the international donors like IMF.

“The only possible way to avoid default like situation in future Pakistan will have to go for rescheduling of loans,” said Atif adding that in this case the loans would be costlier.

 
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