Acts of Terrorism in Pakistan

[Solomon2]

the current helicopter fleet is already committed in the "active" sectors where the encounters are repeatedly happening so every single helicopter counts,

Sorry, missed this earlier.

My answer to this is: helicopter gunships, like tanks, are nice to have around for infantry support on the tactical level but concentrating mobile assets for the purpose of maneuver defense or offense is the correct theater-level strategy. Now is a good time to recall that theater-level strategy has been the consistent and repeated failure of Pakistan's armed forces for the past fifty years.

Gunships are nice to have around but you don't need them for static defensive purposes, save perhaps a few per corps for local-level counter-attacks. On the other hand, since political power in Pakistan ultimately rests with the corps commanders, I imagine that each fights for his equal share of equipment, whether he needs to employ them in offensive battles or not. Once again, the politics of a military junta defeats the larger purpose of waging war against the purported enemy.

 

[Shardul.....the lion]

Blast targets bus carrying Shia pilgrims in Quetta, 18 killed

QUETTA: A blast in the Hazarganji area of Quetta targeted a bus carrying Shia pilgrims from Taftan to the provincial capital on Thursday, Express News reported. Eighteen people were killed and 30 were injured as a result of the blast.
Eyewitnesses said that the bus was carrying pilgrims from Taftan and it was targeted when it was passing near a fruit market in the Hazarganji area. Around 15-20kg explosives were used in the blast. A woman and a policeman are also among the dead.
Some eyewitnesses have also claimed that the blast was a suicide attack, officials have not confirmed this as yet.
Initial reports also state that four policemen on the mobile were injured after the blast.
There is no confirmation on the nature of the blast as yet.
It has also been reported that the bus was destroyed as a result of the blast.
The injured were shifted to Civil hospital and Bolan Medical Complex.
Correction: An earlier version of this article had incorrectly mentioned the location of Taftan. The correction has been made.

Blast targets bus carrying Shia pilgrims in Quetta, 18 killed – The Express Tribune

RIP to victims of terrorism

Khyber Agency: Peace militia volunteers killed in roadside blast

BARA: Two volunteers of peace militia Tauheed-ul-Islam (TI) were killed in a roadside remote-controlled bomb blast in Ziauddin area of Bara, subdivision of Khyber Agency, on Thursday.
According to a political administration official, two members of TI were patrolling the area on a motorbike when the explosion occurred, killing both of them on the spot.
The militia was established by Zakha Khel, a sub-clan of the Afridis, to fight against insurgents in Bara. The group was especially promoted to fight banned group Lashkar-e-Islam led by Mangal Bagh, the official said.
Meanwhile, unidentified militants destroyed a boys’ primary school run by the government in Akka Khel, Bara. According to the political administration, more than 85 schools have been destroyed in Khyber Agency so far.
“Suspected militants planted a bomb inside one of the classrooms which totally devastated the building. Three classrooms were already destroyed in the explosion that occurred last year, while the room that sustained the impact of the last blast was destroyed this time,” an official said.
There were no casualties reported as the school is closed for summer vacations as well as the ongoing military operation in the area. Most of the residents of Akka Khel are now living in Jalozai camp for Internally Displaced Persons. “Schools have been set up in tents inside the Jalozai camp for students to continue their studies,” he added.

Khyber Agency: Peace militia volunteers killed in roadside blast – The Express Tribune

 

[Bond]

RIP.. another attack on Shias... when will this stop-= after killing all shia's?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Sorry, missed this earlier.

My answer to this is: helicopter gunships, like tanks, are nice to have around for infantry support on the tactical level but concentrating mobile assets for the purpose of maneuver defense or offense is the correct theater-level strategy. Now is a good time to recall that theater-level strategy has been the consistent and repeated failure of Pakistan's armed forces for the past fifty years.

Gunships are nice to have around but you don't need them for static defensive purposes, save perhaps a few per corps for local-level counter-attacks. On the other hand, since political power in Pakistan ultimately rests with the corps commanders, I imagine that each fights for his equal share of equipment, whether he needs to employ them in offensive battles or not. Once again, the politics of a military junta defeats the larger purpose of waging war against the purported enemy.

true,

I am talking about the advance party

the initial surgical strikes before the columns move in and establish company/ battalion or brigade head quarters. securing choke points and passages, clearing mines, performing combing operations, while all hill tops are secured. possible escape routes marked and covered.

I thanked your post because you have touched on few things that are very typical of any army (none in the world is immune) and I cant really disagree with you just because "I MUST" disagree out of habit.

your comment about corps commanders is not far from reality. I will expand it to all types of arms in the military with infantry/ armour on the top and say aviation/ air defence in the bottom tier (all based on personal opinion & exchanges with military men).

but I must tell you, given the seriousness of the situation. .. no corps commander in Punjab or Sindh would sit on the resources that he can spare to be used in COIN/ war in waziristian.

I wanted to keep the scope of my post limited to the initial strike on how the operation should/ would be initiated...reason to mention the helicopters was to use the main advantage we have over the terrorists, our air power and mobility.. giving us the element of surprise.

just like a signature American invasion that starts with a barrage of cruise missile attacks and high altitude precision bombings thus pretty much crippling the defences & reactive ability of any force in the world by the time your target recovers from the shock of the surprise, the result is a far gone conclusion.

in Sawat operation, when we launched our biggest Heliborne assault, it resulted in almost 80% of TTP causalities out of the total conflict.

as our troops were picking off the TTP terrorists, their Commanders were pleading them to stay put and try to snipe, rush in to a convey or anything to delay the assault.

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

I don't understand this. If TTP really wanted to take out pakistani government, they could have done it much easily by targetting pakistani power plants or commercial hubs. Why target civilians & shias? Seems that somebody just wants to make noise.

 

[Solomon2]

the initial surgical strikes before the columns move in and establish company/ battalion or brigade head quarters. securing choke points and passages, clearing mines, performing combing operations, while all hill tops are secured. possible escape routes marked and covered.

More helicopters might make a difference as to the speed of this deployment but I don't see how fewer (since Pakistan already has so many transport copters) would make it any less effective.

but I must tell you, given the seriousness of the situation. .. no corps commander in Punjab or Sindh would sit on the resources that he can spare to be used in COIN/ war in waziristian.

The logical conclusion, then, is that the reason for the current immobility is due to leadership failure at the very highest level.

 

[Cheetah786]

The logical conclusion, then, is that the reason for the current immobility is due to leadership failure at the very highest level.

That pretty much sums it up.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

According to Wikipedia Pakistan's Army has forty AH-1 Cobra gunships and ninety-three Mi-17 transports - plenty for any anti-Taliban operation. The U.S. has tried to improve the Pakistani Army's helicopter capabilities but...link

re the link in the end..

well its a disgrace is all I can say.. some details are misleading though. the purchases of F-16s etc were done from our own purse and were the result of the pre-agreed trade in the past.
WoT funds had nothing to do with the purchase of the stuff that has no application in WoT,

but I must say.. that Army has had to give up some of the money to our civilian government for debt servicing. because Govt wasted a lot of money in corruption and mismanagement that it could have used for the running of the country.


re numbers Wikipedia information is a bit dated, doesnt include the lost or retired units. most are grounded and are over 30 year old.

 

[iPhone]

have the remains of the martyrd soldier been returned? are they going to be returned?

 

[Bratva]

More helicopters might make a difference as to the speed of this deployment but I don't see how fewer (since Pakistan already has so many transport copters) would make it any less effective.

The logical conclusion, then, is that the reason for the current immobility is due to leadership failure at the very highest level.

Since you chose to ignore the highly logical reason given by Icarus (Intel Analyst of ISI), you are sticking with your biased opinion and propagating with full force. Here read this quote again and stop being the arm chair general since you have no idea of ground realities.

As I have stated before, we risk the balloon effect, we pull troops from Agency X and deploy them to NWA, when we operate against the Taliban in NWA, the lack of troops in Agency X allows them to settle there and now they have a new safe haven.

 

[Solomon2]

re numbers Wikipedia information is a bit dated, doesnt include the lost or retired units. most are grounded and are over 30 year old.

As the linked article above described, supplying spares has not been very useful. The U.S. has also provided new helicopters but Pakistan responded by selling the excess: link

but I must say.. that Army has had to give up some of the money to our civilian government for debt servicing. because Govt wasted a lot of money in corruption and mismanagement that it could have used for the running of the country.

Pakistan would be better able to pay off its debts if it used its resources to vanquish terrorists. Under such circumstances creditors are often willing to wait. Once again, such a diversion of funds is evidence of incorrect theater-level strategy.

(Have you read B. Bhutto's memoirs? Apparently she picked on the Pakistani military's theater-level weakness right away, explaining to Musharraf how a proposed operation to grab Srinigar would devolve, if successful, into theater-level failure due to the external political, economic, and finally military pressure.)

As I have stated before, we risk the balloon effect, we pull troops from Agency X and deploy them to NWA, when we operate against the Taliban in NWA, the lack of troops in Agency X allows them to settle there and now they have a new safe haven.

Really, I find it hard to believe that the Pakistan Army can't tackle this by normal methods like roadblocks and integrating their information with local police and FC.

 

[foxbat]

Captain among eight killed in IED attack in Khyber Agency | DAWN.COM

KHYBER AGENCY: Eight soldiers including a captain were killed and three others were injured as security convoy was targeted by the militants with a remote control improvised explosive device (IED) in Bara Tehsil of Khyber Agency on Thursday afternoon, officials said.


Government sources said that a convoy of the security forces was passing through Qamarabad area of Bara Tehsil in Khyber agency when it was hit by a remote controlled IED planted on the roadside.

The vehicle was partially destroyed as a result of the blast.

Two militants have also been killed as the security forces targeted the miscreants after the IED Blast near AlHaj Market.

“At least eight troops including an officer were killed and three others wounded in a bomb explosion, targeting two vehicles of the paramilitary Frontier Corps (FC),” a spokesman for the force told AFP.

The vehicles were on a routine patrol when attack happened, he added.

Earlier, the spokesman had said that six troops were killed and four wounded.

Local government official Nasir Khan also confirmed the new toll.

The intelligence sources, however say eight security personnel including Captain Manan; Afzal, Tariq, Yousaf, Bahdar, Ali Badshah, Nawaz Gul, Kamran Ali and Khan Afzal have died in the blast.

The injured soldiers are; Nabiur Rehman, Gulshan Ali and Jamil Hussain have been shifted to the Combined Military Hospital for treatment. Security forces cordoned off the area after the incident as investigation went underway.

Earlier in Akakhel area of Bara, the militants targeted Akakhel peace lashkar with an IED, killing its two activists.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The intention of ALL sane people throughout the world is to get rid of the likes of these low life animals. What all must realize is that it is in the best interests of all to remove this scum from society. We are all singing from the same hymn book - we now must try singing from the same page and unite against the enemy number 1 without thinking Pakistan's agenda is any different.

Yes, but why are Pakistani policies failing in ensuring that Pakistan is seen as part of the solution and not part of the problem? That is an important question to ponder over.

VC - Its news like this that must highlight that Pakistan and its brave soldiers are the enemy of these animals. How can you possibly think that we are "part of the problem"? Please VC - think logically the sacrifice these poor jawans have had to make. Do you think we are the problem?
Perhaps as Irfan bhai has pointed out we may be lacking in hardware and resources but please don't say we potentially are part of this horrific issue. Granted some of the policies of our leaders are questionable, particularly those that are susceptible to bribery. I don't think one can question that we must search for an end to this united with the rest of the world

Bloody hell.. This is the 2nd attack today. I think there was a news about 4 army men killed in an IED attack earlier.. I do not understand the paralysis on the part of Pakistani government and military.

More helicopters might make a difference as to the speed of this deployment but I don't see how fewer (since Pakistan already has so many transport copters) would make it any less effective.

The logical conclusion, then, is that the reason for the current immobility is due to leadership failure at the very highest level.

That pretty much sums it up.

Is this sequence not suggestive of the real problem? Most of Pakistan's problems at the moment are due to the bankruptcy of it's political, judicial and military leadership. The insurgency that is taking place is not an insurmountable problem, nor is it one which needs excessive force or violation of human rights. It has solutions, military solutions, which have been outlined very clearly in this thread itself, administrative solutions and political solutions. None of these seem to have any hope of implementation in the foreseeable future.

 

[swathi]

As the linked article above described, supplying spares has not been very useful. The U.S. has also provided new helicopters but Pakistan responded by selling the excess: link

Pakistan would be better able to pay off its debts if it used its resources to vanquish terrorists. Under such circumstances creditors are often willing to wait. Once again, such a diversion of funds is evidence of incorrect theater-level strategy.

(Have you read B. Bhutto's memoirs? Apparently she picked on the Pakistani military's theater-level weakness right away, explaining to Musharraf how a proposed operation to grab Srinigar would devolve, if successful, into theater-level failure due to the external political, economic, and finally military pressure.)

Really, I find it hard to believe that the Pakistan Army can't tackle this by normal methods like roadblocks and integrating their information with local police and FC.

I think pakistan would have expected Uh-64 black hawk helicopters and ah-64d apache helicopters but US did'nt provide it.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I think pakistan would have expected Uh-64 black hawk helicopters and ah-64d apache helicopters but US did'nt provide it.

I don't understand. Are you saying that the Army will not act unless they have the latest model helicopters?