What's new

A question of faith!

batmannow

ELITE MEMBER
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
18,830
Reaction score
-19
Country
United States
Location
Thailand
A question of faith mazdak_new.jpg
dawn.com
By Irfan Husain
October 08, 2008 Wednesday Shawwal 8, 1429

AMONG the many changes in attitudes that took place in the West in the wake of 9/11, one was in the way people viewed religion. For the evangelical Christians, the attacks on America by people thought to be Muslims were seen as a new offensive in a centuries-old conflict. But for many atheists and agnostics, 9/11 was a reminder of the bloodshed that has historically accompanied all religious belief, particularly monotheistic faiths.

In England, particularly, Christianity has been at a low ebb for a long time, with church attendance down to under a million in a population of 60 million. Indeed, going to church on Sunday is now more of a social occasion than a religious experience.

With this background, it is easy to see why people simply cannot grasp the motivation of Muslims who are willing to kill and be killed in the name of their faith. To them, this kind of behaviour is not only abhorrent, but also completely irrational.

And while many openly articulate their lack of belief, the two most persuasive voices in England are Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens. The latter now lives in America, but his best-selling book, ‘God is not great: how religion poisons everything’, has become a bible for atheists. In this polemical work, Hitchens lays down his core belief thus:

“God did not create man in his own image. Evidently, it was the other way about, which is the painless explanation for the profusion of gods and religions, and the fratricide both between and among faiths, that we see all about us and that has so retarded the development of civilisation…”

Richard Dawkins is an acclaimed biologist who rests his atheism on the cornerstone of Darwinian evolutionary theory. He was catapulted to fame with his book, ‘The selfish gene’, and has published prolifically over the years.

He appears with religious figures in conferences and TV talk shows, and with his articulate views and scientific training, elegantly demolishes the arguments put forward by religious scholars.

In his recent book, ‘The God delusion’, Dawkins describes an experiment that involved 1,802 patients who had received coronary bypass surgery. They were divided into three groups. Group1 received intercessory prayers and knew it; Group 2 received no prayers and did not know it; and Group 3 received prayers and didn’t know it.

Prayers were offered at three churches distant from the hospitals participating in the experiment. Those offering the prayers were given only the first names of the patients, together with the first letter of the surname, and were told to pray for successful operations and quick recovery without complications.

The results, reported in the April 2006 issue of the American Heart Journal, showed there was no difference between those patients who were prayed for and those who weren’t.

Darwin’s theory postulates the gradual emergence of mankind (and all other species) through a gradual series of evolutionary steps. This progress was made as a result of survival challenges successful species faced and overcame along the way. All physical and mental attributes we have acquired over the eons can be traced to this constant battle for survival. Thus, our thumbs with opposing fingers helped us to craft tools; the peacock’s flamboyant tail gives the male an instrument to attract females. Dawkins quotes Darwin: “…natural selection is daily and hourly scrutinising, throughout the world, every variation, even the slightest; rejecting that which is bad, preserving and adding up all that is good; silently and insensibly working, whenever and wherever opportunity offers, at the improvement of each organic being.”

So what evolutionary benefit does religion confer on its followers? Clearly, a child born into a faith will probably cling to it as it has few options until it is an adult. Thus, a boy raised as an animist on a remote island will not even have heard about other religions, and in his worldview, everybody believes in the same gods. For this boy, following the faith of his parents is the way to survive. There is no element of choice here: children believe in whatever doctrine they are taught to believe.

At the end of his book, Dawkins gives a sample list of websites that feature a variety of agnostic and atheistic opinions. Clearly, there is huge ferment over the questions of faith on the internet. Among the scientific community, there is almost complete consensus on the existence of an all-knowing, all-powerful Creator.

Ten years ago, Edward Larson and Larry Withan wrote an article in the Sept 1998 issue of Scientific American in which they placed the number of scientists who did not believe in God at around 70 per cent.

It would be safe to say that in the decade since this article appeared, the number has probably gone up.

Although atheism and agnosticism have increased in academia and western Europe over the last 50 years, faith in religious beliefs is going up in the United States and the Muslim world. These divergent worldviews have produced a mutual incomprehension and suspicion on both sides of the divide.

This gap is most visible in the ongoing electoral battle in the United States. Although both candidates profess strong Christian belief, Obama is widely viewed as the secular candidate, while McCain is seen as the flag-bearer for the muscular brand of right-wing evangelical Christians who are becoming increasingly political.

It is a telling comment on these days of acute polarisation that both candidates are required to take a public stand on their beliefs. Normally, religion is a private matter between an individual and God, should he believe in a deity. But across the world, people now tend to wear their faith on their sleeves. Obviously, in Darwinian terms, this display is an evolutionary survival mechanism in a dangerously divided world..:agree::tup:
 
in my opinion, faith does not necessarily equal religion. I never quite understood what the fuss is about, at the end of the day NO ONE really knows what happens when you kick it and while i think its a good idea to have faith in the 'almighty' do you really think that the force of everything, the origin of matter (as god would probably have to be) would care how you choose to worship him, is god really that shallow? and when people cite evolution as proof of the non-existence of god, they are being so awesomely retarded its not even funny. who's to say that god himself did not create the rules of evolution, it goes against religion but not god.

not trying to get too side tracked here, but I think pretty soon religion will take a back seat, faith will be all that matters (and its all that does matter).
 
in my opinion, faith does not necessarily equal religion. I never quite understood what the fuss is about, at the end of the day NO ONE really knows what happens when you kick it and while i think its a good idea to have faith in the 'almighty' do you really think that the force of everything, the origin of matter (as god would probably have to be) would care how you choose to worship him, is god really that shallow? and when people cite evolution as proof of the non-existence of god, they are being so awesomely retarded its not even funny. who's to say that god himself did not create the rules of evolution, it goes against religion but not god.

not trying to get too side tracked here, but I think pretty soon religion will take a back seat, faith will be all that matters (and its all that does matter).

supporting you.. i dont think he would mind if we worship him at all.. I do not like the idea of someone telling me what to belive and what not to believe.. I have my own senses and I am a master of my own life and I hate to be told 'what is right'. I would rather work it out myself.:cheers:
 
Well, let me as a self-confessed Fundamentalist weigh in on the topic.

Religion and morality is what raises us from the levels of the beast.

Faith is an act of emotion shared by all, wether it is faith in God, in ideology, even in Scientific theory.

Faith is always there, although the object of faith may differ. We all need something to cling to, as the atheist is positively fundamentalis in his beliefs of there not being any intelligent design or overriding guiding force in the Universe.

You don't like the idea of someone telling you what to beleive, yet we all believe our mothers when she tells us, this is your father. We accept her explanation, because we know she is the one who gave birth to us. She has the right to tell us what to believe.

In the same vein, although not analogically, God has the right to tell us what to believe, if he is the one who created us in the first place.

The purpose of life is not to just procreate, or indulge ourselves in pleasures of the sense, or mind.

The purpose of human existence is to worship its creator, and marvel in the life that we h ave been gifted. This is because we did not choose life, but were given the opportunity to experience it anyway. Should we not be thankful for that?
 
Well, let me as a self-confessed Fundamentalist weigh in on the topic.

Religion and morality is what raises us from the levels of the beast.

Faith is an act of emotion shared by all, wether it is faith in God, in ideology, even in Scientific theory.

Faith is always there, although the object of faith may differ. We all need something to cling to, as the atheist is positively fundamentalis in his beliefs of there not being any intelligent design or overriding guiding force in the Universe.

You don't like the idea of someone telling you what to beleive, yet we all believe our mothers when she tells us, this is your father. We accept her explanation, because we know she is the one who gave birth to us. She has the right to tell us what to believe.

In the same vein, although not analogically, God has the right to tell us what to believe, if he is the one who created us in the first place.

The purpose of life is not to just procreate, or indulge ourselves in pleasures of the sense, or mind.

The purpose of human existence is to worship its creator, and marvel in the life that we h ave been gifted. This is because we did not choose life, but were given the opportunity to experience it anyway. Should we not be thankful for that?

and exactly who told you that the purpose of life was to worship its creator?? I mean, there is no clear means to say of there was a creator and if there was one, who or what it is.. until that is establish.. i wont even know if I am worshipping the right one (first of all.. if all that creator wanted was for us to worship him, he would have made us do that...)

Morality and religion separate us from the beasts?? Humans eat and multiply and consume all the natural resources in the world.. water, trees, metals what not.. and in turn pollute the whole environment..

and once the resources are exhausted, humans move to another place and the assault continues. We are living more like viruses on this planet.. and I do not consider this to be being 'higher than beasts'. A mammal always finds its natural equilibrium with nature.. and then both nature and the mammalian species.. live peacefully.

God has the right to tell us what to believe and what not..!! definitely.. I ll believe god.. bot not someone who says 'god told him'.

faith in scientific fundamentals comes because when u repeat an experiment with same set of conditions, you know u will get the same result. trust builds up on that experiment and then u know for sure, it will happen.. you are so confident of it, u can test it any time of the day.. and it happens... no comparison to religious beliefs.. so I would say.. not a good analogy.

It was good debate with you Sir, am looking forward to some healthy debate with you.
 
Well, let me as a self-confessed Fundamentalist weigh in on the topic.

Religion and morality is what raises us from the levels of the beast.

Faith is an act of emotion shared by all, wether it is faith in God, in ideology, even in Scientific theory.

Faith is always there, although the object of faith may differ. We all need something to cling to, as the atheist is positively fundamentalis in his beliefs of there not being any intelligent design or overriding guiding force in the Universe.

You don't like the idea of someone telling you what to beleive, yet we all believe our mothers when she tells us, this is your father. We accept her explanation, because we know she is the one who gave birth to us. She has the right to tell us what to believe.

In the same vein, although not analogically, God has the right to tell us what to believe, if he is the one who created us in the first place.


The purpose of life is not to just procreate, or indulge ourselves in pleasures of the sense, or mind.

The purpose of human existence is to worship its creator, and marvel in the life that we h ave been gifted. This is because we did not choose life, but were given the opportunity to experience it anyway. Should we not be thankful for that?


very interesting reply, I agree with you on several points, life is just as marvelous as it is confusing, I have wondered on several occasions why we are alive at all, and why I am me and the other guy is the other guy. I still have a lot to figure out and I might not be able to give a reply as thorough as yours, but here's what I have figured out so far..

firstly, while it makes sense that god has a right to tell us what to believe, he (or it) has been very vague about it. while many would point towards religious texts, that leads absolutely nowhere, because there are so many of them and all of them claim to be the word of god, I know the bible does, the Quran does and Hinduism does too, now we could argue which is right and which isn't, but consider this, do you think god will judge you based on what you eat? or if you drink alcohol? take alcohol for instance, being an alcoholic isn't the best idea, but drinking when you're out partying it isn't that bad, alcohol has helped people bond, helped people loosen up a little since time immemorial. what god will (or rather should, i guess) judge you on is if you were a good person (now comes the dilemma of defining a good person), if you were good to yourself, lived life to it fullest potential and had a positive effect on your family, others and society as a whole.

I am all for worshiping god and having faith, but the deal with faith is that it cannot be taught, you cannot tell people that believe in A and not in B because God says so because we aren't entirely sure what god really said, what we should really focus our efforts on (as opposed to organized religion) is helping people get along, spreading a live and let live attitude if you will. faith is a personal affair, you can drag your son to mass every Sunday but he's only going to have faith when he's ready and when he realizes the miracle of life that surrounds him.

That's it for now, I have a tonne of homework to finish, im sure you will have an interesting reply.

thank you peaceforall.

nite.
 
Well, let me as a self-confessed Fundamentalist weigh in on the topic.

Religion and morality is what raises us from the levels of the beast.

Religion Morality and the most important Ethics is what separate us from the beast .
Ethics is our ability to understand and respect other.
"I will behave and think the same way as I want others to behave with me "

this is the guiding force which makes or shall make Religion and Morality .. any religion or morality devoid of Ethics leads to cruel and barbaric behaviour.

Faith is an act of emotion shared by all, wether it is faith in God, in ideology, even in Scientific theory.

but my dear friend .. how will you understand that your faith is Right or wrong .. Hitler has faith in Nazism but it was unethical and look what happened .
Scientic Theory is not faith .. it is based on facts .. it transcends beyond personal, because every one can study , and same result will come everywhere for everyone .

Faith is always there, although the object of faith may differ. We all need something to cling to, as the atheist is positively fundamentalis in his beliefs of there not being any intelligent design or overriding guiding force in the Universe.

But we also have intellect .. we as a human have capacity to question ourself So intellect has to be used to judge our own faith and belief system .out of this self introspection we shall find the right from all wrongs


You don't like the idea of someone telling you what to beleive, yet we all believe our mothers when she tells us, this is your father. We accept her explanation, because we know she is the one who gave birth to us. She has the right to tell us what to believe.

In the same vein, although not analogically, God has the right to tell us what to believe, if he is the one who created us in the first place.

Yes we belive our mothers .. but at the same time we can find out scientifically by DNA test to confirm our paternity ..and if it conflicts with what mother says then you have to use intellect and not faith .

The purpose of life is not to just procreate, or indulge ourselves in pleasures of the sense, or mind.

The purpose of human existence is to worship its creator, and marvel in the life that we h ave been gifted. This is because we did not choose life, but were given the opportunity to experience it anyway. Should we not be thankful for that?

Purpose of life ..is not only worship its creator .. let everyone have their own purpose within the limit of ethics .. let athiest have his right to find rationality . let a painter have his right to create vanity .. every purpose is worth pursuing ..
 
"Faith is an emotion"

In his "Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam" (reader will not fail to note "Reconstruction") Allahmah Muhammad Iqbal, Poet hero, benevolent scholar says that all ages of faith are ages of Reason.

Perhaps, just perhaos we need not be so emphatic, perhaps faith also has an element of reason, perhaps.

Purpose of life?

faith does not equal religion
:smitten:

Irfan Hussein's article would have been better titled - "Dueling Dogmas"
 
"Faith is an emotion"

In his "Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam" (reader will not fail to note "Reconstruction") Allahmah Muhammad Iqbal, Poet hero, benevolent scholar says that all ages of faith are ages of Reason.

Perhaps, just perhaos we need not be so emphatic, perhaps faith also has an element of reason, perhaps.

Purpose of life?

:smitten:

Irfan Hussein's article would have been better titled - "Dueling Dogmas"

Yes Faith May Have a element of reason .. but faith is not reason
and yes I agree with your view on title Dueling Dogmas
 
Faith started as fear of the unknown. And it continues that way. Marx got it right, it is the opium of the masses.

The early societies worshiped the nature elements as they feared them or owed their existence to them. The Mayans were always worried that the Sun may not rise up tomorrow and sacrificed for it to continue doing that. Different societies had their own interpretations of the divine and how to please (actually escape the wrath of) him.

The later religions carry the same torch. Most of them are based on fear. Most people follow them to escape the wrath of the supreme being who supposedly wants us to keep praising him repeatedly, gets angry if we don't (angry enough to send his own children to hellfire) and on top of it wants us to do that in a particular way.

Every religion keeps it flock together by means of fear. The irrational fear of hell.
 
Faith started as fear of the unknown. And it continues that way. Marx got it right, it is the opium of the masses.

The early societies worshiped the nature elements as they feared them or owed their existence to them. The Mayans were always worried that the Sun may not rise up tomorrow and sacrificed for it to continue doing that. Different societies had their own interpretations of the divine and how to please (actually escape the wrath of) him.

The later religions carry the same torch. Most of them are based on fear. Most people follow them to escape the wrath of the supreme being who supposedly wants us to keep praising him repeatedly, gets angry if we don't (angry enough to send his own children to hellfire) and on top of it wants us to do that in a particular way.

Every religion keeps it flock together by means of fear. The irrational fear of hell.

First Marx said things against faith and yet he created another faith which was and is as brutal as other faith systems he was against .
faith originated as a result of fear but then it moved towards spritualism . for example Hinduism have certain sects which are athistic and doesnt belive in God but they belive in spiritualism Like Samakhya , Jainism and buddhism .
and then they progressed to a spritualistic system which supported creation of personal god (bhakti Movement)for your own devotion and thats how you see millions of gods .

So we cannot rule out faith but it shall be guided by ethics
 
Faith started as fear of the unknown.

No sir, faith is the demonstration of love, in which fear is an element, it is not the overcoming of fear, but rather despite the fear, that faith can be better defined.

Fear of the unknown is not cause of faith - like someone said scientist do not have "faith" in theories, because theories need don't need it, they are built on conjectures built on observation and testing.

The cause of faith is urge to love, to be in love, to be in union, at least as I understand faith from a muslim point of view (while conceding that there may be an endless procession of such).:cheers:
 
No sir, faith is the demonstration of love, in which fear is an element, it is not the overcoming of fear, but rather despite the fear, that faith can be better defined.

Fear of the unknown is not cause of faith - like someone said scientist do not have "faith" in theories, because theories need don't need it, they are built on conjectures built on observation and testing.

The cause of faith is urge to love, to be in love, to be in union, at least as I understand faith from a muslim point of view (while conceding that there may be an endless procession of such).:cheers:

Agreed Sir that is.
I used to think how can someone have such a strong bond with his or her mehboob that they can feel, touch and talk to the One they are not in physical contact with.

Then when somene started explaining to me taking me to that height of that sprituality where we are free of all the physical bonds then we realise what exactly faith is. There is fear but there love more than the fear. Its the urge to dedicate yourself without expecting anything, whereas fear is an element of that as Sir Muse said.

The fear is not about something which could be harmful to us but something which could annoy our beloved and we dont want to resort to that thing.
 
The cause of faith is urge to love, to be in love, to be in union, at least as I understand faith from a muslim point of view (while conceding that there may be an endless procession of such).:cheers:

Dear muse
if Faith is about love then why there is Reward of Heaven and punishment of hell in faith ?
 
Please elaborate -

if Faith is about love then why there is Reward of Heaven and punishment of hell in faith ?

what? what does reward of heaven have to do with faith being love?

Just expand on your idea, and lets see if things are more clear
 
Back
Top Bottom