A potential way Pakistan can deal with the S-400 & THAAD

[Philosopher]

Before I start this thread let me say I am a strong believer in the notion of hybrid warfare and other similar concepts. Many times when we think of a potential solution for a particular military problem, we can become short sighted and only try and imagine a silver bullet solution. In reality, a combination of ways can deal with a problem. I am not opening this thread to suggest this will deal with the S-400 and other air defences all by itself (maybe it could), but see it as part of a multitude of ways that will be used in an actual conflict. So, with that in my mind, let me start.

Yesterday Iran released a 6 year old video showing what seems to be part of the development of an air launched version of a precision guided missile. In that video, we essentially saw what was originally developed as a ground launched rocket, being developed into an air launched system. Now these so called "aero-ballistic missiles" (or rockets) are not something new. Few nations had and are developing air launched ballistic systems. For example, the Russians are developing the Kinzhal missile with 2000-3000 km range and a speed of Mach-10.

This missile is believed (not confirmed) to be a development of the Russian ground launched missile called Iskander which has range of 500km.

The Israeli have also recently developed an air launched rocket called Rampage with an alleged range of 150 km (pic below):

Rampage has been described as "extremely cost-effective".

IAI said speed, range and cost are the ALBM’s main advantages. Eli Reiter, manager of IMI’s firepower division, praised Rampage’s “extraordinary cost-effectiveness ratio”

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/rampage-missile-might-be-israels-new-super-weapon-57267

So the question is, why turn a ground based system into an air launched one?

It appears air launched ballistic systems increase the range and speed the systems.

Furthermore, any aero-ballistic features offer the option of firing at defended targets, including missile defense batteries themselves, from unexpected angles.

"Even a small volley of missiles launched from unexpected angles that stay below the view of allied radar installations would limit warning time and would increase the missiles’ effectiveness in a limited strike."

See this link below for more details:
https://fas.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/FAS-ALBM.pdf

Other very important factor is cost-effectiveness. You can develop an already existing ground launch system into an air launched systems with all of the above capability. So Pakistan could turn something like Nasr-1 missile into an air launched variant. No need to develop an entirely new missile from scratch!

This could give Pakistan a new strategic capability in dealing with air defence systems. Using such a cost-effective way, if one has an air launched rocket/ballistic missiles system with sufficient range, it will be relatively much easier to saturate and destroy even high end air defences within stand off ranges. And of course, such a system will be complemented with other assets such as Raad-II et cetra.

 

[Asian.Century]

Interesting take, turn Nasr-1 ground-launched missile into Air Launched Missile...its entirely possible and cost effective too. Probably Pakistan and PAF already did with RAAD air launched missile.

 

[Philosopher]

Interesting take, turn Nasr-1 ground-launched missile into Air Launched Missile...its entirely possible and cost effective too. Probably Pakistan and PAF already did with RAAD air launched missile.

RAAD is a stealth nearsonic cruise missile. Missile like RAAD add a great capability to a potential SEAD mission. Where the air launched ballistic systems come in is their supersonic/hypersonic speeds. Considering the unpredictable angle of fire from these air launched system, and if this combined with further evasive manoeuvring techniques, then you could create an incredible new capability. This is well within Pakistan's capability. And the cost-effectiveness is key as well.

 

[Asian.Century]

RAAD is a stealth nearsonic cruise missile. Missile like RAAD add a great capability to a potential SEAD mission. Where the air launched ballistic systems come in is their supersonic/hypersonic speeds. Considering the unpredictable angle of fire from these air launched system, and if this combined with further evasive manoeuvring techniques, then you could create an incredible new capability. This is well within Pakistan's capability. And the cost-effectiveness is key as well.

So PAF and Army want a Nasr-1 or Babur type long range, super speed, super stealth "Ballistic Missile system" entierely possible with few changes to make it air launched power. Pakistan must go for it I say.

 

[Armchair]

swarm of harpy like drones.

 

[KhanBaba2]

Range of Nasr is 60km, weight is 1200Kg.

Which plane are you going to modify to carry it.

 

[Philosopher]

Range of Nasr is 60km, weight is 1200Kg.

Which plane are you going to modify to carry it.

Range of the ground launched Nasr is minimum 70km. As for which plane, JF-17 has a payload capability that is more than enough to be armed a 1200kg missile. This is not even considering the method that can be used to reduce the mass of that missiles. Such as reducing warhead size, using more carbon fiber in the body etc.

 

[MastanKhan]

Range of the ground launched Nasr is minimum 70km. As for which plane, JF-17 has a payload capability that is more than enough to be armed a 1200kg missile. This is not even considering the method that can be used to reduce the mass of that missiles. Such as reducing warhead size, using more carbon fiber in the body etc.

Hi,

Is the center line hard point on the JF17 capable of handling a 1200 KG load---?

If surface to surface rang e of the Nasr is 70 km---then the air launched version of the same sized missile would be almost twice the range or more---.

 

[Ivan]

I think offensive against S-400 is no more a problem when we have Ababeel that has 2,200 kilometres of range and multiple S-400 batteries can be taken out with a single missile.

 

[Philosopher]

Hi,

Is the center line hard point on the JF17 capable of handling a 1200 KG load---?

If surface to surface rang e of the Nasr is 70 km---then the air launched version of the same sized missile would be almost twice the range or more---.

My thoughts are that Pakistan would at minimum reduce the warhead of Nasr. Out of the 1200kg mass of Nasr, it appears 400kg of that is in the warhead section. If Pakistan reduced the warhead by lets say half, that gives a 1 ton missile. I am sure JF-17 central hard point is capable of that. As for the range increase, I agree with you.

I used Nasr as just one example. Pakistan possess the A-100 MRLS. The rockets have a mass of around 800kg and a range of 100km.

 

[JafarQureshi]

Before I start this thread let me say I am a strong believer in the notion of hybrid warfare and other similar concepts. Many times when we think of a potential solution for a particular military problem, we can become short sighted and only try and imagine a silver bullet solution. In reality, a combination of ways can deal with a problem. I am not opening this thread to suggest this will deal with the S-400 all by itself (may it could), but see it as part of a multitude of ways that will be used in an actual conflict. So, with that in my mind, let me start.

Yesterday Iran released a 6 year old video showing what seems to be part of the development of an air launched version of a precision guided missile. In that video, we essentially saw what was originally developed as a ground launched rocket, being developed into an air launched system. Now these so called "aero-ballistic missiles" (or rockets) are not something new. Few nations had and are developing air launched ballistic systems. For example, the Russians are developing the Kinzhal missile with 2000-3000 km range and a speed of Mach-10.

This missile is believed (not confirmed) to be a development of the Russian ground launched missile called Iskander which has range of 500km.

The Israeli have also recently developed an air launched rocket called Rampage with an alleged range of 150 km (pic below):

Rampage has been described as "extremely cost-effective".




So the question is, why turn a ground based system into an air launched one?

It appears air launched ballistic systems increase the range and speed the systems.

Furthermore, any aero-ballistic features offer the option of firing at defended targets, including missile defense batteries themselves, from unexpected angles.

"Even a small volley of missiles launched from unexpected angles that stay below the view of allied radar installations would limit warning time and would increase the missiles’ effectiveness in a limited strike."

See this link below for more details:
https://fas.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/FAS-ALBM.pdf

Other factors cost-effectiveness. You can develop and already existing ground launch system, into an air launched systems will all of the above capability. So Pakistan could turn something like Nasr-1 missile into an air launched variant. No need to develop an entirely new missile from scratch!

This could give Pakistan a new strategic capability in dealing with air defence systems. Using such a cost-effective way, if one has an air launched rocket/ballistic missiles system with sufficient range, it will be relatively much easier to saturate and destroy even high end air defences within stand off ranges. And of course, such a system will be complemented with other assets such as Raad-II et cetra.

Anyway, I am by no means an expert, this was just one idea I thought I open up for discussion.

We do not need to worry about S-400 but only about THAAD. India will announce cancellation of S-400 deal by end of this year.

 

[Philosopher]

We do not need to worry about S-400 but only about THAAD. India will announce cancellation of S-400 deal by end of this year.

You can use the same method for dismantling THAAD.

 

[Fawadqasim1]

Hi,

Is the center line hard point on the JF17 capable of handling a 1200 KG load---?

If surface to surface rang e of the Nasr is 70 km---then the air launched version of the same sized missile would be almost twice the range or more---.

how are you sir cm-400akg can be tweaked for ground attack role ?

 

[MastanKhan]

how are you sir cm-400akg can be tweaked for ground attack role ?

Hi,

It already is---.

 

[FuturePAF]

You can use the same method for dismantling THAAD.

This is why Pakistan needs these air launched Rockets to have hypersonic maneuverable warheads, similar to the DF-17 shown at last years Chinese Parade. BMD Avoidance and still maintaining Precision Strike. If possible, also carrying decoys would help as well.

A design like the DF-17 is expected to be able to defeat the S-400 and Thaad

http://blog.missile.exchange/tag/booster/
https://www.businessinsider.com/hypersonic-weapons-could-nullify-missile-defenses-2018-2

Here is a good podcast on Hypersonics, the final assessment is that hyersonics are a game changer and can defeat current air defenses, hence why nations like China should not share the tech, and which is all the more reason for Pakistan to try to acquire it.
https://warontherocks.com/2019/05/net-assessment-hypersonic-weapons-gimmick-or-game-changer/