A New India?

[muse]

Ok, that's more like it.

Indian policy makers seem to identified China as a potential adversary, at least to your thinking.

Yet it is interesting to note Indian defence assets are not directed primarily at China -- why is this? if your suggestion has merit, why are Indian defence assets directed towards Pakistan?

The suggestion has been made that the article is biased - well, of course it is, it is a polemic. Also the point has been made that since Nepal and Bhutan are landlocked and have security treaties with India that these ought not be included -- possibly, lets again recall that it suits the polemic.


No one has chosen to suggest that beyond neighbors indian policy makers seem to be envisioning a security role beyond it's immediate neighbors - what might that role be?

 

[Bull]

The point the article is making, in my opinion, is to open the floor to a debate about high levels of defence expeditures at a time when poverty has not challeneged

Explain the 'high level of defence expensiture to me' ?

 

[muse]

Bull

read the article and decide for yourself.

 

[Bull]

Yet it is interesting to note Indian defence assets are not directed primarily at China -- why is this? if your suggestion has merit, why are Indian defence assets directed towards Pakistan?

A THINKTANK should be knowing why we are not directing our military against China explicitly. We have a official policy of keeping China on the low key when it comes to potential adversary. Other than the posts here by members comparing IAF - PAF and LCA to JF and Arjun to Alkhalid, Prithvi to Ghazni why do you think we are directing the military might against you.

And being a member of the THINKTANK;

• Have you missed out on all those news of new airfield's being activated along the chineese borders?
• Have you missed out on the new battalion/brigade for moutain warfare being formed and based in NE?
• Have you missed out on the massive infrastucture boost in NE along chineese borders?

Not trying to be personal, but isnt being a THINKTANK, an ability to think without the animosity that exists between Indian and Pakistani relationship in this forum. By posting such third grade artcile which is formatted worse than one in a school annual publication, you have left me wondering.

 

[Bull]

Bull

read the article and decide for yourself.

Read my first bulleted repy and decide.

 

[muse]

Not trying to be personal, but isnt being a THINKTANK, an ability to think without the animosity that exists between Indian and Pakistani relationship in this forum

I didn't realize I was thinking with animosity - however; your post reeks of it. My post was designed to intiate discussion, something Indian friends such as you seem to want to avoid and instead seem to want to evade the issue.

Now, If understand you, your answer to the question by Dr. Farruhk "who is india going to fight"? seems to be that India prepare to fight China and Pakistan and that is why it is expending the resources it is, would that be a fair appraisal of your response?

Seems to me your response is exactly the kind of alarm and discussion Dr. farrukh wanted to raise .

In your opinion, is there any option for India short of confrontation? DO you think india may want to project power in distant shores of the Indian ocean and on whose behalf? How would india respond in your opinion to increased Chinese presence in the Indian ocean, arabian sea and persian gulf given their increasing economic and security stake there?

 

[afriend]

I didn't realize I was thinking with animosity - however; your post reeks of it. My post was designed to intiate discussion, something Indian friends such as you seem to want to avoid and instead seem to want to evade the issue.

Now, If understand you, your answer to the question by Dr. Farruhk "who is india going to fight"? seems to be that India prepare to fight China and Pakistan and that is why it is expending the resources it is, would that be a fair appraisal of your response?

Seems to me your response is exactly the kind of alarm and discussion Dr. farrukh wanted to raise .

In your opinion, is there any option for India short of confrontation? DO you think india may want to project power in distant shores of the Indian ocean and on whose behalf? How would india respond in your opinion to increased Chinese presence in the Indian ocean, arabian sea and persian gulf given their increasing economic and security stake there?

The defence spending is not to attack, but to defend ourselves.

However the path of discussion was initiated and continued by india and its neigbhbouring countries, but with obvoius backstabbing from friends/foes.So this question have its own obvious answers.

So acting ignorant of the situation and questioning the defence spending sounds ridiculous as india/china/pakistan all have a viloent past which have caused a chain reactions of sorts to make sure that the security of these countries are not compromised.

So question asked should be not Who is india going to fight with..? but How is it that we are gonna bring peace into the region..???? And one should ask ones own country.. if they are serious enough to remove the mistrust, build faith and irradicate terrorsim from their land. Be it india/china or pakistan..!!!

 

[muse]

Pleasantly refreshing.

So question asked should be not Who is india going to fight with..? but How is it that we are gonna bring peace into the region..???? And one should ask ones own country.. if they are serious enough to remove the mistrust, build faith and irradicate terrorsim from their land. Be it india/china or pakistan..!!!

Indeed, however; this option seems to one that Indian policy makers may have overlooked. As is clear from Bull's post, India have increased their defense spending, opened new airbases, etc; etc; - seems to me india are proceeding along a trajectory that can have tragic consequences.

acting ignorant of the situation and questioning the defence spending sounds ridiculous as india/china/pakistan all have a viloent past which have caused a chain reactions of sorts to make sure that the security of these countries are not compromised.

The security of these countries, as far they are related with each other, arises or dimishes from the inside, not the outside and therefore, the questions generated by the extraordinary indian defence expenditures.

 

[afriend]

ndeed, however; this option seems to one that Indian policy makers may have overlooked. As is clear from Bull's post, India have increased their defense spending, opened new airbases, etc; etc; - seems to me india are proceeding along a trajectory that can have tragic consequences.

Well i wouldnt agree with you. You know that trust cannot be build overnight. A constant sustainable and postive dialogue have to be with two countries for over a peroid of time to generate trust. However you have seen kargil/Mumbai/china claiming arunachal pradesh.. to name a few in th recent times which have been in contrast to the objective we all want to achieve. We are also victims of cross border/Indegenious terrorists. And india still hve to go a long way in securing its border's/Costal areas. So defence spendings are obvoiusly justified given the conditions and the challenges we face.

The security of these countries, as far they are related with each other, arises or dimishes from the inside, not the outside and therefore, the questions generated by the extraordinary indian defence expenditures.

And i wouldnt agree with you at all on this either.... As security of a country means security from both internal and external factors/threats.

 

[Torpedo]

@ muse

The problem of the article in question is India's defense expenditure. Let me repeat this as I can't resist.

Defense budget in GDP -
India - 2.5
Pakistan - 3.0
USA - 4.1
Russia - 4.3
UK - 2.2
China - 1.8

The point is, the Indian expenditure is perfectly normal, only it LOOKS big because of big size of India. It takes more money to defend a larger nation.

Secondly, do you expect nations to spend on there defense budgets only when they want to fight with someone? No, these things are done "imagining" that a time may come when we need them.

Thirdly, are the effects of this expenditure seen only at war? No. Many strategies of other nations depend directly on your defense preparation.

Not only that. How can you expect India to decide the budget looking at the financial capabilities of neighboring countries? India's defense budget is going to be this big; it's Pakistan's problem to face it.

Taking all this into consideration, I think that the author of that article should grow up before he calls himself expert.

 

[Proud2Indian]

Jaguar is a private company pumping employing indians on preferential order as compare to british workers.
Why would Britain care for the job market of EU?
Indian govt. organised finances to take over european companies when their shares are down but than it is only UK who have to bail out companies which has stopped hiring locals!

I am not sure if this is related to topic @ hand....Can you clarify how you perceive that Indian govt. was involved in providing money to Indian Companies for takeover. Lot of these takeovers were done by using debt raised by the Indian companies on there b/s from western invertors.

Still you see no difference between a loan negotiated from IMF and begging?

Yeap there is diff between Loan and begging and Pakistan has taken Loan, but you must also be aware that every country in the world hates to take loan from them. They are worse then the local money lender we have in our rural area and there loan conditions are interference on the functioning of local govt.

tx

 

[Bull]

I didn't realize I was thinking with animosity - however; your post reeks of it. My post was designed to intiate discussion, something Indian friends such as you seem to want to avoid and instead seem to want to evade the issue.

Animosity was in the article you posted not with you. I meant somehow i have taken to reading what THINKTANK's write with much detail because they are special.

Now, If understand you, your answer to the question by Dr. Farruhk "who is india going to fight"? seems to be that India prepare to fight China and Pakistan and that is why it is expending the resources it is, would that be a fair appraisal of your response?

Well i dont think to say 'we want to fight' would be a right way, but we want to ne ready for them.

Seems to me your response is exactly the kind of alarm and discussion Dr. farrukh wanted to raise

I didnt raise an alarm, Mr. farukh tabled all the failures of India nicely in a thousand words.

In your opinion, is there any option for India short of confrontation? DO you think india may want to project power in distant shores of the Indian ocean and on whose behalf?

India would like to play a more important role in Indian ocean region and wants to strengthen in Navy with that regard. But we have our priorities and limitations resource and priority wise.

Whose behalf ? On India's behalf.

How would india respond in your opinion to increased Chinese presence in the Indian ocean, arabian sea and persian gulf given their increasing economic and security stake there?

Well we have already starte making port calls on a lot of ports in the IOR. IN has edge over PLAN in patrolling IOR due to its proximity and we dont want to lose it.

PS: What we are discussing still is only one part of the multifacted article you posted, which also spoke about poverty, DRDO's failure and Samjauta blasts. Even PFF mods would call that thread crapping or thread derailing. I have no problems in discussing all that was pointed out, but all cant be discussed in one line of discussions.

 

[muse]

You know that trust cannot be build overnight. A constant sustainable and postive dialogue have to be with two countries for over a peroid of time to generate trust. However you have seen kargil/Mumbai/china claiming arunachal pradesh.. to name a few in th recent times which have been in contrast to the objective we all want to achieve. We are also victims of cross border/Indegenious terrorists. And india still hve to go a long way in securing its border's/Costal areas. So defence spendings are obvoiusly justified given the conditions and the challenges we face.

Well certainly, on the other hand would it be fair to ask why it seems india have problems with neighbors? And Should neighbors not be alaramed at this increased defense spending, ought they not be asking if these capablities are not being aimed at them and then react? And of course neighbors point fingers at India for spreading terror - accusations and recriminations is not what the piece is about - thus far I think Bull has been the most forth right, even though I suspect it was not what he intended.

Torpedo

The point is, the Indian expenditure is perfectly normal, only it LOOKS big because of big size of India. It takes more money to defend a larger nation.

It certainly is not normal, normal suggests a norm to compare with - I will grant you that if compare by GDP, it is lower than pakistan's per figures you cite, however; there is little denying that indian defense spending and in particular rhe capablities it has and will generate have been increasing - one wonders if the present level of spending could not bring solutions to communal warfare and of course kashmir, then there is the terror business. Look I'm not suggesting that it is not up to indians to do with their national wealth as they see fit, what I want to point to is to see how the reaction to these spending will be --- You know the rule of 8 to 8 soldier per insurgent? Now strategic advantages are diminished with ballistic missles and nuclear weapons, 1 such weapon or 10 such weapons, it's really the same isn't it?

When the article poses the question of who it is that india prepare to fight, I think we may consider that these capablities are not to be exercised on the land mass of the sub-continent.

Secondly, do you expect nations to spend on there defense budgets only when they want to fight with someone? No, these things are done "imagining" that a time may come when we need them

.

No, this is a weakness in your position, because if we acept this point, we can be challeneged on the idea that it is frivolous these billions of imagination while poverty, yada yada.

Thirdly, are the effects of this expenditure seen only at war? No. Many strategies of other nations depend directly on your defense preparation

.

Again, I'm not so sure this is a persuasive position, after all nobody is suggesting that India is a nazi germany or keynesian economy growing itself on war.

Not only that.

How can you expect India to decide the budget looking at the financial capabilities of neighboring countries? India's defense budget is going to be this big; it's Pakistan's problem to face it

.

Perhaps, but it's kind of silly to cut off one nose to spite...., isn't it?

 

[Bull]

Well certainly, on the other hand would it be fair to ask why it seems india have problems with neighbors? And Should neighbors not be alaramed at this increased defense spending, ought they not be asking if these capablities are not being aimed at them and then react?

The main problem with India and its neighbours are that we were divided haphazardly when the british left. They never marked the boundaries well, leaving us to sort it out. We with our idiosyncrasies have failed in doing that. India has problems with lot of countries because we share borders with many unlike other nations who has mostly 2 neighbours to deal with. Pakistan has a durand line, bangladesh has problems with India occupying its land wrongly. And increased defence spending might not be even an issue to gain news columns in Nepal or Bhutan or SriLanka or Maldives. B'desh and Pakistan defintily would be taking note as we have all been involved militarily before.

It certainly is not normal, normal suggests a norm to compare with - I will grant you that if compare by GDP, it is lower than pakistan's per figures you cite, however; there is little denying that indian defense spending and in particular rhe capablities it has and will generate have been increasing - one wonders if the present level of spending could not bring solutions to communal warfare and of course kashmir, then there is the terror business. Look I'm not suggesting that it is not up to indians to do with their national wealth as they see fit, what I want to point to is to see how the reaction to these spending will be --- You know the rule of 8 to 8 soldier per insurgent? Now strategic advantages are diminished with ballistic missles and nuclear weapons, 1 such weapon or 10 such weapons, it's really the same isn't it?

I didnt quite get you here.

When the article poses the question of who it is that india prepare to fight, I think we may consider that these capablities are not to be exercised on the land mass of the sub-continent.

Anybody who wants to fight us, then we dont have choice right.

 

[RajsParadise]

In context of whats being discussed from the authors perspective, let me reason with u regarding Indian Defence Expenditure in twilight of its below poverty population...

... To begin with, the growing uncertainty of its own neighbors whose political future is based on non-state actors compel India to be prepared for any eventuality.

... Any sovereign nation's primary responsibility is to protect its citizens and India with its 1 billion population needs to ensure that its external sovereignty is not challenged under any circumstances for its citizens to continue have a normal life...

... I also like to quote recent scenario...The western borders of Pakistan were not as secured as the border to India which eventually lead to Swat episode and India cannot afford to take such a chance coz of the bearing impact it will have on its democracy...

... In the current Geo-Political scenario and India's ambition to be a permanent member of Security Council make sense in investing in modernizing its Triad..

... Indian Citizens are quiet capable of deciding whether its government is doing the things and we find its quiet acceptable ratio of Indian Citizens money which is put into use to secure its citizens given the turmoils which it went through in 2008 with its security concerns a meagre 2.5% of its GDP...

... hence given the paradigm of current affairs India in its sovereign status needs to even increase its % of GDP ratio on defence expenditure