A Momin is not stung at the same place more than once But Hey We Are Pakistanis

[illusion8]

I've always believed that the conflict in the Middle East is due to the war which was taking place in the '60s - the Cold War. Even though the Soviet Union died, their officials lived on, and if we think about it, they still rule Russia. Putin? A former KGB officer who has retained for almost a decade.
The US has been trying to get rid of the influence the Soviets had gained in the Middle East.
Iraq, Syria, Libya were all under the rule of the Ba'ath parties, socialist, secular and promoted Pan-Arabism. These states were nationalist, whereas the Gulf was dominated by religious groups, who were less keen on the socialist policies of the Ba'athists. The US found it easier working with the Saudis and Qataris, who were friendlier towards them than the latter.

Remnants of the cold war? very much possible. But where would you place the Islamists emergence in this US/Russia front? It's too complicated a phenomena to be used - using the growing pan Islamism movement towards taking out old Russian allies?

 

[Hyperion]

So.... basically you can't eradicate a mentality/mindset, what you can do is scare them into submission, or send them collectively to oblivion. If that's the case, sending them to oblivion sounds good.

first you cut down and eradicate the active terrorists by force and then revamp the entire education system

lets look beyond the confines or Islam or even religion... a complete eradication of an ideology is impossible. you can defeat it weaken it but it can live through. its about the mindset of a human

forgive me for making a general statement but want to give you the hint what I mean . we got laws about paedophilia, ethical debate about genetic modification, then there are pro life and pro choice groups and then there are those who base their ideology about racial superiority or religion . the fall of Nazi Germany didnt eradicate the fascist Nazis (they have mutated into very different forms that are either covert or overt in the Western Europe). despite all the movies and studies and education showing people why racial and religious hatred is wrong and why having sex with little children is wrong but priests, Mullahs, politicians from east and went indulge into this nonetheless

even if the world unites and decides that killing the entire Muslim population from the world .. all one billion of them will solve this issue, then i will disagree because this kind which identifies itself as LeJ, TTP or Al Qaeda or Al Shahab etc.... has existed throughout time in the history and is a survivor it melds into the population and emerges again and again when opportunity presents itself. they would even drink liquor eat pork and wont do circumcision to stay hidden from the rest of the world and strike again in next 100 or 200 years when the world will put its guard down.

from Islamic point of view I have to quote something about this Hydra.. you are welcome to ignore it as I dont want to preach what our faith has got to say about them

Prophet Muhammad PBUH has prophesied about this group terming it as hounds of hell... saying that they will have long beards and will quote Quran but they will spill the blood of the innocent like water and they will live through the entire time although being defeated many times and they will eventually form the front troops of Antichrist.

 

[Hiptullha]

Remnants of the cold war? very much possible. But where would you place the Islamists emergence in this US/Russia front? It's too complicated a phenomena to be used - using the growing pan Islamism movement towards taking out old Russian allies?

Well, the Russians have always been a supporter of the Communist and socialist ideology. Karl Marx himself said, "Religion is the opium of the people." Countries which were allied with the USSR and had socialist leanings would of course, share the same belief, although not as extreme.
Now, how would you unite the people against the socialists? By introducing religion into the whole equation! Suddenly, these socialists and communists were godless atheists who lacked morals and were blasphemers.
During the Cold War, the US didn't just bring religious fundamentalism into the ME, but Ronald Reagan revived Christian morality in the US. The US placed the phrase "In God we Trust" on their dollar bill. I think religion is an effective weapon against the Communist ideology.

 

[illusion8]

first you cut down and eradicate the active terrorists by force and then revamp the entire education system

lets look beyond the confines or Islam or even religion... a complete eradication of an ideology is impossible. you can defeat it weaken it but it can live through. its about the mindset of a human

forgive me for making a general statement but want to give you the hint what I mean . we got laws about paedophilia, ethical debate about genetic modification, then there are pro life and pro choice groups and then there are those who base their ideology about racial superiority or religion . the fall of Nazi Germany didnt eradicate the fascist Nazis (they have mutated into very different forms that are either covert or overt in the Western Europe). despite all the movies and studies and education showing people why racial and religious hatred is wrong and why having sex with little children is wrong but priests, Mullahs, politicians from east and went indulge into this nonetheless

even if the world unites and decides that killing the entire Muslim population from the world .. all one billion of them will solve this issue, then i will disagree because this kind which identifies itself as LeJ, TTP or Al Qaeda or Al Shahab etc.... has existed throughout time in the history and is a survivor it melds into the population and emerges again and again when opportunity presents itself. they would even drink liquor eat pork and wont do circumcision to stay hidden from the rest of the world and strike again in next 100 or 200 years when the world will put its guard down.

from Islamic point of view I have to quote something about this Hydra.. you are welcome to ignore it as I dont want to preach what our faith has got to say about them

Prophet Muhammad PBUH has prophesied about this group terming it as hounds of hell... saying that they will have long beards and will quote Quran but they will spill the blood of the innocent like water and they will live through the entire time although being defeated many times and they will eventually form the front troops of Antichrist.

Some misunderstanding there Sir,

I wasn't advocating taking out the Muslim population, I have read your earlier posts and I know that you know where the source of this scourge actually lies.

As for Nazi's and their attempt at world domination - wasn't the final solution a great big war - wasn't the end of the war brought about by the dropping of two nukes?

I agree that taking them out entirely may not be possible - but then where does the solution lie?.

Well, the Russians have always been a supporter of the Communist and socialist ideology. Karl Marx himself said, "Religion is the opium of the people." Countries which were allied with the USSR and had socialist leanings would of course, share the same belief, although not as extreme.
Now, how would you unite the people against the socialists? By introducing religion into the whole equation! Suddenly, these socialists and communists were godless atheists who lacked morals and were blasphemers.
During the Cold War, the US didn't just bring religious fundamentalism into the ME, but Ronald Reagan revived Christian morality in the US. The US placed the phrase "In God we Trust" on their dollar bill. I think religion is an effective weapon against the Communist ideology.

Very interesting indeed. Quite the possibility - and looks like the Russians are losing cold war II as well.

 

[Hiptullha]

Very interesting indeed. Quite the possibility - and looks like the Russians are losing cold war II as well.

Perhaps they are losing in the Middle East... However, the socialist ideology is making inroads into the heart of Western Civilization...
For some reason, the youth in the US favour socialism more than capitalism.

 

[illusion8]

Perhaps they are losing in the Middle East... However, the socialist ideology is making inroads into the heart of Western Civilization...
For some reason, the youth in the US favour socialism more than capitalism.

I believe they have passed through that phase a long while back (the 19th century), the hold of the capitalists is too strong for it to take any drastic effect in Western countries.

 

[illusion8]

@Hiptullha,

I can get the possibility of what's happening in the ME could be cold war II, even Afghanistan I can understand - but what about happenings in Pakistan?, the happenings in Africa? - perhaps rewards for the Islamists for taking sides in the ME?

 

[TalibanSwatter]

we are arming and supporting FSA which has partners like Al Qaeda & TTP
the TTP will come back and might bring the weapons with them provided by the Saudis

Nawaz has to pay his debt and its the Imperial directive from Riyadh.
our leadership lives on charities and Saudis have a lot of leverage over Pakistan whatever the government.

According to latest reports, while TTP has rejected announcing unconditional ceasefire, their chief sympathizer, Sami ul Haq has made a beeline for Saudi Arabia. Perhaps the Maulana has gone for a few meetings to strategize with his and TTP's Saudi masters??

 

[Hiptullha]

@Hiptullha,

I can get the possibility of what's happening in the ME could be cold war II, even Afghanistan I can understand - but what about happenings in Pakistan?, the happenings in Africa? - perhaps rewards for the Islamists for taking sides in the ME?

Well, it's natural for the two sides in this conflict to attempt to broaden their spheres of influence. What's happening in Pakistan and Africa is simply the efforts of the US and Russia to try and establish governments which sympathize with them and support them. The Islamists are just pawns of the US. They won't be rewarded.

 

[illusion8]

Well, it's natural for the two sides in this conflict to attempt to broaden their spheres of influence. What's happening in Pakistan and Africa is simply the efforts of the US and Russia to try and establish governments which sympathize with them and support them.

???

In Pakistan by way of China? I don't think that influence is so strong - I could be wrong though.

The Islamists are just pawns of the US. They won't be rewarded.

Rewards? -

get to kill Non Muslims and Muslims of other sects.

get to rule a few weak Muslim countries.

get to enforce their shariah and behead and whip people under them.

get billions in funding, get manpower and weapons.

What more could they ask for?

 

[Hiptullha]

In Pakistan by way of China? I don't think that influence is so strong - I could be wrong though.

Could you rephrase that? I didn't quite catch what you meant.

get to kill Non Muslims and Muslims of other sects.
get to rule a few weak Muslim countries.
get to enforce their shariah and behead and whip people under them.
get billions in funding, get manpower and weapons.
What more could they ask for?

Well, I won't say every Islamist who was fighting in the wars which have taken place in the ME enjoyed what happened. As we've seen in Afghanistan and Pakistan, many are farmers who need a way to support their families. The leadership is the true evil.

I believe they have passed through that phase a long while back (the 19th century), the hold of the capitalists is too strong for it to take any drastic effect in Western countries.

You never know what could happen. The youth have played a massive role in the rise and fall of governments, and I think it's best not to under-estimate them.

 

[illusion8]

Could you rephrase that? I didn't quite catch what you meant.

Both US and Russia trying to establish their sympathizing governments..

The US has sufficient influence in Pakistan - about Russia, did you mean by way of Chinese influence in Pakistan? because Russia lack any in Pakistan.

Well, I won't say every Islamist who was fighting in the wars which have taken place in the ME enjoyed what happened. As we've seen in Afghanistan and Pakistan, many are farmers who need a way to support their families. The leadership is the true evil.

Of course - not every soldier fights a war for ideology.

You never know what could happen. The youth have played a massive role in the rise and fall of governments, and I think it's best not to under-estimate them.

Anything's possible of course - but it could be a long way off, at least not in our generation.

 

[Hiptullha]

about Russia, did you mean by way of Chinese influence in Pakistan? because Russia lack any in Pakistan.

Russia does lack influence, but China happens to be a very good ally of the Russians.

Anything's possible of course - but it could be a long way off, at least not in our generation.

Our generation is going through turbulent times. With the advent of social media, information is widespread and we can quickly learn of what's happening in Iraq, or in Italy or in Japan. This is the weapon of the youth which has proven to be formidable as we have seen from the Arab Spring. Change will come, and I'm sure it will come from this generation.

 

[Vinod2070]

• for Israel and Saudis Syrian civil war is definitely against Asad regime which is the only Iranian Ally in the region
• why Israel? its because Iran & Syria support Shia milltiant Hazbullah, the only organisation that is still confronting Israel
• For Saudis its all about the culling of shias, eradicating them from the face of the earth & to achieve that seek them out around the world and overtly or covertly fund and support sectarian terrorists to kill them.
• as far as the Europe & America are concerned, its 2 things, one doing the bidding of KSA & Israel and secondly take out 1 of the two remaining regimes that have been allies of the former Soviet union and present Russian federation.
• USA and UK have systematically since the 2nd world war instigated conflicts or launched invasions against the countries, assassinated leaders in Africa, Latin America etc and toppled regimes that had the tilt towards Moscow.
• Al Qaeda, LeT, LeJ, TTP, FSA, Al Shahab, Al Mohajiroon actively seek out new grounds to kill Muslims, they are like a virus that look for a wound where they can kill all others who dont fit their Islamic definition.

There were several people (including some "moderators") celebrating on the other thread about the sale of weapons for this civil war.

Many were just dismissing it as "just business" or "we are selling the weapons to Saudis and we don't care what happens after that".

I raised the issue of its domestic implications with regards to sectarianism within Pakistan that has apparently already claimed close to 10,000 lives, mostly Shia.

The response was predictable, a ban from the thread.

Not sure how supposedly the elite of the country can be so short sided or worse.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

There were several people (including some "moderators") celebrating on the other thread about the sale of weapons for this civil war.

Many were just dismissing it as "just business" or "we are selling the weapons to Saudis and we don't care what happens after that".

I raised the issue of its domestic implications with regards to sectarianism within Pakistan that has apparently already claimed close to 10,000 lives, mostly Shia.

The response was predictable, a ban from the thread.

Not sure how supposedly the elite of the country can be so short sided or worse.

hence the title of my thread
problem is not just the killing of shias, but every one. yes TTP and its affiliates specialize in killing shias but the age old dead concious has made them so brave that they get away with killing the rest of the Muslims too and there is not even a peep from the apologists,

Saudis can play their game infinitely as long as they have oil because they got very water tight control on their borders and control over the population so their beneficiaries only look for other hunting grounds where its easy.


if its pure business then why not sell to Burma and why not sell to Asad regime? after all it was the same ruling family that helped Pakistanis in its wars with India by providing AAK AAK guns and other stuff?



problem is that TTP has openly claimed to be among the FSA rank and file fighting the Asad regime and this news is acknowledged in Pakistan as well. now POF weapons most likely will end up in the hands of those butchers and rapists who have killed and violated the people of Sawat and FATA and many soldiers.

if anyone can put his hand on the heart and claim that these TTP terrorists wont bring back the MANPADs back into Pakistan and toy with the idea of shooting down a passenger plane or a military aircraft then either he is a hypocrite or an imbecile