6th International Defence Fair Partner 2013

[proka89]

Sorry, i worded it incorrectly, i meant the firing computer which takes data from those things (meteo sensor, laser rangefinder, the laser system that measures the deformation of the barrel before each shot etc)..

I went through the whole thread yesterday, seems Serbia retained all but aerospace sector (which was in Mostar, Bosnia in the common country) with the exception of UTVA while adding some new abilities, like the heavier wheel APC and the wheeled howitzer family.
Coincidentally the old BOV version (with the 3x 20mm cannon) was originally also produced in Slovenia, newer (Serbian) version looks great though, like Cadillac-Gage Commando family.

I don't know who is developer of that computer. But this modernization is done using Russian and our products, so it's either something ours, or its Russian, but i can't say for sure. I will ask some guys on Serbian forums about that.

And when we speak about defence industry we have succeeded to retin a large part of ex Yugoslavia defense industry, and now we are improving old designs and making new ones. Because large part of factories needed for production of complex battle systems, were outside of Serbia after the break up, and we were forced to import many things, just to make some of those weapons. For example we were forced to import guns for Nora B 52 from Russia because we didn't have machines needed for production of 52 caliber howitzer guns. And you must have in mind that all our defence factories were heavily damaged in NATO bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999, some of them were practically left with name only, and had to start from the beginning. But in the last few years we have started to seriously invest in our defence industry and in the next few years we will invest even more.

http://vti.mod.gov.rs/film/tehnologije.pdf
This is some plan of implementing new technologies in our defense industry. Some of those things are already acquired (It's on Serbian but you can use google translate ).

And also we are already developing new BOV, which will be longer than BOV M11, able to carry more armor, and whitsatand more explosive under the wheel, it should be used as a patrol vehicle.

 

[CheefCoach]

Well defense industry in Yugoslavia was spread in all of 6 countries, mostly in Bosnia and Serbia. Bosnia was chosen for high mountains, so plan for defense of the country was to hold those hills until cavalry arrive.
As times pass out, Serbia needed spear parts for tanks, so local company started to building them and they toke the jobs that use to done by companies outside of Serbia. Also M 84 wasn't 100% build in Yugoslavia because some parts were imported. Right now Serbia don't produce any tank (or any vehicle on tracks). We don't have production facility for tank chassis, but I am sure we could build one if we have need for it. Computer hardware can be easily purchased, because I am not sure does anybody produce them in Serbia. But software is ours.
Aerospace industry in Yugoslavia always was with imported engines, and same thing is in Serbia. We just don't produce enough planes to be worth building them by ourselves. So Lasta 95 have USA engines (Lycoming AEIO 540-L 1B5.D), and Kobac will have Canadian Pratt & Whitney turboprop engines (1 × Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-62 turboprop, 857 kW).
Original BOV was made in several variant, that with 3x20 mm is AA version BOV-3. Also there is tank destroyer version BOV-1 with Malutka (AT 3) missiles. We upgraded them to be SACLOS and penetrate 800 mm of RHA and we are still using them. Also there is military police version of BOV which is stile active. BOV was made by TAM in Slovenia (with Deutz engines). New BOVs are made by rebuilding old BOVs which are decommissioned (so chassis is a same, and everything else is changed).

To add one thing on proka post. It isn't very hard for us to build weapons factory, it is hard to sell those weapons to anyone, including even us. If we have big order, then we will probably build or buy factory machines, and acquire license for technologies.

 

[Audio]

Well defense industry in Yugoslavia was spread in all of 6 countries, mostly in Bosnia and Serbia. Bosnia was chosen for high mountains, so plan for defense of the country was to hold those hills until cavalry arrive.

The idea was to concentrate the production in an area to which it would take most time if the aggressor came from any direction on land. And yeah, forests and hills of Bosnia made the choice even easier. It is interesting to note, this was primarily aimed at Warsaw pact countries, because that's where the threat was perceived to be the greatest.
As for the cavalry, Tito screwed that in the 50's when he was offered NATO membership. Instead he went on a goose chase to give legitimacy to self important men like him, Nasser and Nehru.
Noone would come if NATO and Warsaw pact fought it over through Yugoslavia. Which iirc was one of the corridors of battle in Russian plans (dash through Yugoslavia to cut off land connection between NATO and Greece, Turkey)

I don't know who is developer of that computer. But this modernization is done using Russian and our products, so it's either something ours, or its Russian, but i can't say for sure. I will ask some guys on Serbian forums about that.

Yeah, it's probably different maker, last i heard the company that made it originally for Yugoslavia is now completely into medical lasers research and production. Was just curious. Thanks for the extensive reply.

 

[CheefCoach]

Some civilian and military technologies are similar, so some civilian manufacturer can open military lines of product if demand showed up (nobody will reject good businesses opportunity, but when weapons stop producing company still must find way to make enough money for living). So if somebody order new tank from Serbia (basically from Yugoimport company), then YI will have to find manufacturer of every part either from Serbia, or from rest of the world. That even makes final product cheaper, because company who produce parts must compete between each others. That is one of that reason why weapon system build in Serbia are cheaper than others.
I believe that defense idea of Yugoslavia was if Warsaw union attack, than to wait for NATO help, and if NATO attack to wait of Warsaw union help. If NATO and Warsaw union start fight in Germany, we should stay neutral.
And yeah, I forgot to mansion, Bosnia was less develop country in Yugoslavia so federal government wanted to get them some jobs too.

 

[proka89]

Serbia can't produce tanks. Maybe some parts for them, and that's it. And it doesn't matter who orders tank from you, that isn't going to change. And secondly nobody will order a tank from a manufacturer who produces 10-20% of that same tank. M84 was made by more than 300 companies form whole Yugoslavia. Only small part of them was in Serbia and even those are ruined now, The same is with other ex Yu republics. We can make what we can, and that is not little consider how small country we are, but living in dream won't help. Serbia can't produce tanks, and it probably never will again.

 

[CheefCoach]

I disagree. Serbia is producing more components for M 84 now, that it used in Yugoslavia, because it need spear parts. Yugoslavia couldn't produce M 84 until invested 3B dollars into defense industry. If we again invest several billion dollars we will have tank production capacity, and what we can't build ourselves we can import. But for starting tank production it require around 1000 tanks, so it isn't likely to be started to produce in Serbia.
But if somebody like M 84, I am sure that we can buy old T 72, and build M 84 out of them. Electronic more less we have (rest we can purchase), auto loader we can produce, gun we import (but with small investment we can do that too), engines we can buy or we can buy license; and here it is tank.
A lot of Serbia made weapon system aren't 100% Serbian. Nora sold to Bangladesh have Kamaz chassis and Russian made guns. I think only design, auto loader and FCS are Serbian (or mostly Serbian anyway), and still it work. Customers wants weapons to be good and cheap, and usually don't care where parts came from.

 

[proka89]

I disagree. Serbia is producing more components for M 84 now, that it used in Yugoslavia, because it need spear parts. Yugoslavia couldn't produce M 84 until invested 3B dollars into defense industry. If we again invest several billion dollars we will have tank production capacity, and what we can't build ourselves we can import. But for starting tank production it require around 1000 tanks, so it isn't likely to be started to produce in Serbia.
But if somebody like M 84, I am sure that we can buy old T 72, and build M 84 out of them. Electronic more less we have (rest we can purchase), auto loader we can produce, gun we import (but with small investment we can do that too), engines we can buy or we can buy license; and here it is tank.
A lot of Serbia made weapon system aren't 100% Serbian. Nora sold to Bangladesh have Kamaz chassis and Russian made guns. I think only design, auto loader and FCS are Serbian (or mostly Serbian anyway), and still it work. Customers wants weapons to be good and cheap, and usually don't care where parts came from.

Name the components that are in production in Serbia. Around 15 M84 are out of service near Smederevska Palanka, and we are not even able to fix them. Read what Vladimir Ivanovic has written about tank production in ex Yugoslav republics. Autoloader for M84 we can't produce, it was produced by Sever Subotica, and that is practically dead company now. Most important part of the electronics we don't have. Name me the electronics for modernized 84 that we are producing. Making a tank is not the same as making the self propelled wheeled howitzer. And saying we can't produce something but we can buy license, is ridiculous. Everyone can buy license, but first of all you need to have a lot of money which we dont have, and than you need to invest a lot of money in facilities, but guess what again, we don't have a lot of money. So stop speaking nonsense. Serbia will produce tanks again when pigs start to fly. You cant make good and cheap tank if someone else is gonna develop that tank for you, and than you will have to import 70% of that tank any way.

 

[CheefCoach]

Vladimir Ivanovic is grumpy man. From weapon engineer he moved to be IT guy in TV station. Based on his comment, he is greatest tank repair man in world history.
{danas.rs/danasrs/drustvo/terazije/vracanje_tenkovskog_duga_kuvajtu.14.html?news_id=214977, oklop.net23.net/vlado/}
Same company that are producing auto loader for Nora can produce auto loader for M 84. You put yourself company that can produce electronic, senzor-infriz, and there are more of them, at least for M 84, modernized M 84 is practically T 90. We still have blueprints for tank. One thing is saying that we can't build tank, and completely other thing is saying that we won't. I agree we won't, it is not economically worth building tank. How many M 84 were build, maybe 750 top, so cost of single M 84 was 4,7 M $ from '80ties. That is like 9 M $ today; for what is essentially T 72 with western FCS. I believe I read that camera on M 84 was American, and heard that laser and some more component were Swedish. Am I right, who knows, this is forum, I can write BS. So Yugoslavia government bought license for T 72, and invested 3 billion dollars into weapon industry. That is how we produced tanks. On same way we can do it again. But Yugoslavia needed 1500 tanks, Serbia maybe need 150, and not before 2040.
Yugoimport have his philosophy and I understand that. They are doing what is profitable. So they will bought old T 72 tanks, and Belorussian or Russian components, bring that into Serbia, and assembly. If it is possible, they will invest into some Serbian company to produce some of parts. And they will sell it. Can Russian do same thing? Yes they can, but they might charge some extra. Or maybe there is politic involved. Russian don't want to sell something to some country, or some country don't want to buy from Russia. Or Russian want some political favors for weapons... So Yugoimport step in to broke a deal, it is primarily trade company. If there is profit they will find way to deliver, even if they have to hire foreigner experts.

 

[Audio]

for what is essentially T 72 with western FCS.

Fotona has built the largest quantity of Fire Control Systems for T-55 / T-72 / M-84 tanks outside of the former Soviet Union.

Fire control systems | Fotona

I believe I read that camera on M 84 was American, and heard that laser and some more component were Swedish.

As one of the early innovators of laser technology, the first products offered by Fotona to the defense market date back some 35 years.

Fotona Defense Lasers | Fotona

Not to advertize to much, point is vast majority of the systems on the M-84 were domestically built in the country.

 

[proka89]

@CheefCoach

Vladimir Ivanovic is one of the best tank experts in the world, not according to him, but according to many other people around the world. Who are you to conclude that man who is one of the constructors of M84, who was working on tank modernization, upgrades and building in states as China, Iran, Pakistan..... is a grumpy man. Do you seriously believe that your knowledge about tanks and tank industry is bigger than his, or S. Palestinac and many other tank experts from ex Yu who are saying the same.

And you didn't answer to none of my questions. Because you obviously don't know the answers on them. And auto loader for Nora is not the same as auto loader for M84. Saying that you can produce one just because you are producing another is just clearly stupid. Senzor infiz iz producing meteo sensors and laser range finders, do you have any idea how many more of various electronic devices, that are more complicated than that are needed for tank to work?

If we follow your logic even Malta, Vatican and Morocco can build tanks, they just need to invest billions of dollars in development, license, and production.

And rest of your post, is obviously just another part of you fiction because it has nothing to do with reality.
@Audio
Just found out that Fotona is not anymore in defense industry, they have shut down that part of their production and development.

 

[Audio]

Nora sold to Bangladesh have Kamaz chassis and Russian made guns.

Says here barrels for Kenyan and Bangladeshi Nora's are made in Slovenia.

Namenska industrija Srbije - Vesti - Page 23

4th post from the top with link.

Just found out that Fotona is not anymore in defense industry, they have shut down that part of their production and development.

Yeah, thought so.

 

[proka89]

Says here barrels for Kenyan and Bangladeshi Nora's are made in Slovenia.

Namenska industrija Srbije - Vesti - Page 23

4th post from the top with link.

I think that at first they were from Slovenia, but later we started to acquire them from Russia.Soon PPT factory from serbia should be able to produce them.

 

[Audio]

I think that at first they were from Slovenia, but later we started to acquire them from Russia.Soon PPT factory from serbia should be able to produce them.

Oh well, i wouldn't know for certain, was just curious.

 

[CheefCoach]

With enough money I can produce tanks. I will hire somebody who knows how that is done, maybe mr. Ivanovic . I like the dude as far i know him (which is from his posts) but I don't like fact that he didn't leave enough apprentices and books to his knowledge be past on future generations. He should found his own tank repair company, but world isn't ideal place.
Every auto loader is essentially robot, if you know how to build one of them, you know how to build all of them. Senzor infriz and similar defense industry that build parts of electronic, if they get enough funds and blueprints they can expend their business to entire FCS. They can learn, and they can hire expert who knows. Or fotona can restart it's defense industry program if there is buyer.
Problem with tank building is firstly that M 84 is already outdated tank. We can never get that top technology. Secondly there isn't so big need for tanks this days, it use to Yugoslavia to have 1500 of them, and now maybe only US need so many of those steel monsters. As demand for tank is dropping, and investment required to them be able to produce, in future only few will produce tanks. USA, Russia, China, maybe India, several countries of EU... Probably countries will join in to share a cost and create a market. And anti tank weapons are better and better, soon ALAS will be able to take out the best modern tank. And yes conclusion, you have to sell enough tanks to pay off investment, research and development of those. Because of civil war, M 84 never done that.
I found information that on M 84AS is Thales camera and that engine is still build in FMSN Pale.

 

[Audio]

I found information that on M 84AS is Thales camera

Thanks, i need to clarify that in my posts i always meant the M-84A version produced in the 80's, not the modernized M-84AS.