5th Gen FGFA Deal with Russia about to Crash land : Report

[knight11]

lol bot is back with another BS article from a BS source...

BS BOT LOLZ

India should cancel this deal and try to go into joint venture with Japan's stealth program, it will be more beneficial for India if possible.

HOW ??

 

[wiseone2]

India should cancel this deal and try to go into joint venture with Japan's stealth program, it will be more beneficial for India if possible.

japan will not share the 5th generation fighter technology with anybody

F-35 is a lemon. Beset with problems, even countries like Israel are backing out. It's one of the worst WVR fighters ever made which is unfit for dogfights. It's stealth features too are beyond poor. And it costs a bomb. In a nutshell, it's far from being a cost effective weapon platform.

F-35 will be fixed. it is only 5th generation option for most western allies

 

[The BrOkEn HeArT]

Paid news. FGFA deal is on process.

 

[Donald Trump]

Erm, Israel is not backing out, their pilots are training in the US, and they've already received their first jet.

http://aviationweek.com/defense/israel-s-f-35-app-and-its-implications

Calling it one of the worst WVR fighters ever made just tells me you don't know what you are talking about.

You probably got that opinion from a certain David Axe article that absolutely fails in its interpretation of a test pilot report on an AOA testing exercise.

In fact, everything you say is wrong. Its stealth is second (or at some angles superior to) the F-22, and it costs less than rafale or Typhoon, and it isn't even out of development!

Really? Ok, here goes. The F-35 is a case of massive over ambition to develop one base airframe that can be adapted to replace half-dozen specialized jets. The result is an expensive jack-of-all-trades, but a master of none.

One of the main problems in the development of the F-35 is the delay in the creation of software Block2 system, responsible for the overall control of the combat capabilities of the aircraft, in particular the data links and live-weapon firing system. The worst deficiencies were found in the Block 2B's navigation and accuracy software aspects. These software problems slowed weapons integration and flight-testing, and with it the entire aircraft's development.

The Block2 also has issues with the accuracy of fire, radar, passive sensors, the ‘friend or foe’ recognition system and the electro-optical guidance targets for attacks.

The F-35 program is expected to miss a deadline for releasing the Block 3F software upgrade. Missing the deadline will likely mean that the F-35 won't be ready for its July 2017 deadline. And you say batches have already been delivered to countries when it's not even fully ops as yet?

In addition, there is some deviation in the F-35 flight control system, making it impossible for aerial combat at certain angles, reducing the maneuverability of the fighter. And that means its far below par for WVR dog fights.

In addition to these drawbacks, the fighter revealed a number of problems with the helmet-mounted display, which should display the important information about the course of the flight. The cost of a helmet edition is estimated at 400 thousand dollars, but it does not provide a clear image in the dark. Lol!

If that is not enough, the F-35 has a number of components that require maintenance more often than desired.

According to the Pentagon report, which is available on the net, all versions have reliability issues with their avionics processors, landing gear tires, thermal management systems, ejection seat assemblies, cockpit display electronics unit, helmet mounted display units, seat survival kits, igniter-spark in the turbine engines, and on-board oxygen generating systems.

That's the F-35 for you! That's why I called it a lemon! Thank you!

 

[knight11]

Progress Reported on Indian Version of Sukhoi T-50
Published February 3, 2016
SOURCE: AIN ONLINE

India and Russia have agreed on a cost reduction for the FGFA (Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft). Negotiations on co-development of an Indian version of the Sukhoi T-50 (Russian acronym PAKFA) had previously stalled, especially concerning the cost of substituting Indian content on the stealth fighter. But according to recent reports in the Russian media, progress was made during the visit to Moscow by Indian Prime Minister Narendra last December, although no announcement was made.

Each of the partners will invest $4 billion over the next seven years, including $2 billion each in the first year and the rest evenly distributed over the six years that follow. The total cost of development is now put at $10 billion, compared with $12 billion previously cited. The balance of $2 billion still required would be recouped from export sales, it is now reported.

United Aircraft (UAC) and Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) would be the industrial partners, with HAL having a workshare of at least 25 percent, and Bharat Electronics also playing a significant role. In similar fashion to the licensed production of the Su-30MKI for the Indian air force, the Indian companies will manage the replacement of Russian avionics, including mission and navigation computers; display and management systems; and self-protection systems. The result will be a considerably different aircraft from the PAKFA, and will effectively be the export version.

The Indian air force is seeking to procure 250 FGFAs. Earlier Indian sources estimated the unit production cost at $100 million, similar to that of the Su-30MKI.

Meanwhile, the acceptance process for the PAKFA has taken one year so far, preceded by five years of flight trials. The Russian air force expects to receive its first aircraft next year, and to have 55 in service by 2020. Initial production aircraft will be powered by a pair of NPO Saturn/UMPO AL–41F1 turbofans (also known as “Item 117”). They will later be replaced by more powerful, reliable and efficient “Item 30” engines now in development by an industrial group supervised by the United Engine Corporation (Russian acronym ODK).

 

[Armani]

I'm giving below a post made by @Gessler in another forum...

++

Collision Course

■ IAF claims developed engine of FGFA was not reliable

I do not think IAF is going to buy any FGFA with the existing 117 version. We are looking at the Izdeliye-30 specifically. Even the present engine is far more reliable & has longer HSF and TBO figures than the AL-31 versions IAF currently operates on Su-30MKI.

It can still supercruise and achieve climb rates of upto 384m/s which is the highest among any modern fighter, F-22 included.

"Not reliable" is a vague word and I doubt any serving IAF officer would use such a word.

■ Inadequate radar and stealth features

Another utterly vague term that no-one with an ounce of knowledge about aircraft will make. First of all, what you're seeing right is the prototype T-50 series. It still does not have many of the RCS-reduction features and RAM coatings that the production aircraft will have...and how exactly FGFA might turn out is unknown.

Even then, trying to determine a plane's RCS value or how easy it is for enemy radar computer to recognize just by looking at pictures of it's prototype is something an idiot or internet fanboy would do. It requires professional radar/EM testing and calibration to determine that.

Basically, they're trying to measure the RCS of a plane that does not exist as of know. Pure idiocy. And I'm again sure no serviceman will make such statements unless he has vested interests and/or the mediaperson who uses the term "IAF source" is lying and talking out of his a$$.

And as @Bahamut said, PAK-FA's SH-121 radar complex is the most advanced onboard fire-control radar in development anywhere. No other plane has more arrays, a larger FoV or more advanced TRM architecture.

■ Huge cost over-run

Where???? We recently concluded that the FGFA development will actually cost less than anticipated before.

https://www.rt.com/business/330026-india-russia-fighter-aircraft/

"Negotiators made a breakthrough last month deciding to lower investment cost to $4 billion for each country."

"The 2008 deal is projected to cost each country $6 billion, adjusted for inflation. India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics and Russia’s Sukhoi have agreed to cut costs by 40 percent to $4 billion each over seven years."

This single point proves that this article-writer is shit.

■ India’s reduced share. Lack of participation by IAF in the design phase

I do not think they actually even finished discussions on what all should be incorporated in the Indian version...and this guy already knows exactly what is India's share and if IAF is in the design team or not.

■ IAF apprehensive that Russia will not share technology

First of all, whether Russia shares tech or not is none of IAF's concern. All they care is whether they get their plane or not. Whatever ToT is involved will be absorbed by the local industry, if they feel Russia is not sharing enough, it is they who will complain - not IAF.

Secondly, as long as local production of the Indian version takes place, it means Russia has shared enough ToT already. If anyone is having delusions that "transfer of tech" means that Russia is going to open up all their IPRs to the Indian industry, I'd suggest you guys stop dreaming immediately.

ToT means the transfer of production-engineering knowledge which enables HAL and/or Private companies to successfully build components for the plane and carry out the final assembly here.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Radar/EW codes might be shared for the specific purpose of enabling us to update the onboard threat library as and when we wish with new info and enemy target signature characteristics.

It does not mean we can plagiarize their IPRs and build copies as we like,...we are not China.

This "IAF source" is obviously a phony. The article is written by an American lackey.

++

 

[Perpendicular]

PAKFA development is on the track. Well and good.

 

[Hellfire]

F-35 will be fixed. it is only 5th generation option for most western allies

F-35 may not even find that big a market with US forces alone if the current trend of downsizing on budget allocation continues world over. US itself is rethinking this project in certain quarters and wondering whether to update the F18 and keep it around. Lets see what happens.

 

[Basel]

BS BOT LOLZ



HOW ??

Offer them to join AMCA or request to join there project, India is good in diplomacy, have money and can also use US influence too.

 

[knight11]

Offer them to join AMCA or request to join there project, India is good in diplomacy, have money and can also use US influence too.

1st your Japanese ADX part.

1. Many Japanese defense products is developed jointly developed with LM of USA including AESA Radar, Composites, Avionics, FBW etc.

2. What is good for Japanese does not automatically good for India, and fullfill Indian need.

3. Its highly unlikely, that Japan will go for indegenous 5th GEN, because US will push F-35.

Now Indian part.

1. Why would we need any JV with any country, when we already developing AMCA.

2. When we have our own Kaveri Turbo fan engine Program.

3. When we already made a deal with French for Rafale, and we can work with Thales for MDPU Artitecture for 5th generation avionics design.

4. Already have build, LCA Tejas with high percentage of Composites -- With 4 variants in a peanut size money.

5. Already have Stealth UCAS/UAV program AURA.

6. Already have Space program, and soon will have Airforce dedicated Geostationary Satellite, Naval Satellite.

7. Already have started LCA MK-2 program, which will be the TEST BED for AMCA.

8. Already have FGFA program running and already made deal for the 5th Gen capable Fighter plane Rafale.

 

[Basel]

1st your Japanese ADX part.

1. Many Japanese defense products is developed jointly developed with LM of USA including AESA Radar, Composites, Avionics, FBW etc.

2. What is good for Japanese does not automatically good for India, and fullfill Indian need.

3. Its highly unlikely, that Japan will go for indegenous 5th GEN, because US will push F-35.

Now Indian part.

1. Why would we need any JV with any country, when we already developing AMCA.

2. When we have our own Kaveri Turbo fan engine Program.

3. When we already made a deal with French for Rafale, and we can work with Thales for MDPU Artitecture for 5th generation avionics design.

4. Already have build, LCA Tejas with high percentage of Composites -- With 4 variants in a peanut size money.

5. Already have Stealth UCAS/UAV program AURA.

6. Already have Space program, and soon will have Airforce dedicated Geostationary Satellite, Naval Satellite.

7. Already have started LCA MK-2 program, which will be the TEST BED for AMCA.

8. Already have FGFA program running and already made deal for the 5th Gen capable Fighter plane Rafale.

If you have that much tech and resources then why working with Russia for 5th gen?

 

[knight11]

If you have that much tech and resources then why working with Russia for 5th gen?

Reason why USA have F-22 but build F-35, and the reason why China is developing J-20 and FC-31, and the Reason, we can make the deal with West and Russia simultaneously, which neither China or Pakistan can do.

@Basel kindly read what do you mean by 5th Gen warfare. Just inducting a 5th Gen fighter plane will not do any benifit, if you don't have 5th Generation Resources and with resources means lot of things, from Radar, Communication resources, Speed of network, Smart Weapons and for fight against another 5th Gen. enemy, you need another assets some called it 6th Gen, but it is a part of 5th Gen warfare, a Stealth VLO UAV.

 

[Basel]

Reason why USA have F-22 but build F-35, and the reason why China is developing J-20 and FC-31, and the Reason, we can make the deal with West and Russia simultaneously, which neither China or Pakistan can do.

I have not talked about what China and Pakistan can do or can't do, please leave them aside. As a fan of technology I m surprised why India is not going for better tech in terms of 5th gen? West and their allies are more then willing to share tech with India and it can use that willingness in its favour by bargaining TOT from various vendors or even can work for customized variants of Korean / Japanese 5th gen or Saab 5th gen, it will open access to tech which France or Russia cannot provide.

 

[knight11]

I have not talked about what China and Pakistan can do or can't do, please leave them aside. As a fan of technology I m surprised why India is not going for better tech in terms of 5th gen? West and their allies are more then willing to share tech with India and it can use that willingness in its favour by bargaining TOT from various vendors or even can work for customized variants of Korean / Japanese 5th gen or Saab 5th gen, it will open access to tech which France or Russia cannot provide.

First ADA is already working on AMCA and second India is already commited to FGFA and India don't have abundant money to invest in another JV. Second After USA and Russia, only Japanese are capable of building 5th Gen fighter plane in the world. Yes I have Excluded China because it don't have reliable power plant yet.

1. India is not interested in PAK-FA rather FGFA which is quite bigger plane, with long range as compare to Japanese ADX.

2. There is no doubt Japanese are fully capable of building 5th Gen, but problem with them is that they are attached with LM and partnered in various defense systems.

3. If India will go for the off the shelf solution, then no country will allow so much technology,which Russian provides to India.

4. FGFA is for the Air Defence and AMCA is needed for attacking the enemy with high air defence system.

5. SAAB don't have the capability, nor the resource for any 5th Gen fighter plane, and Gripen might be there last plane and they are only integrator, with most of the tech. build by UK and Germans.

6. ADA which have developed LCA, are confident that they can build 5th Gen. combat plane in the country, and they are only demanding 3 Billion for R&D, development and all the prototypes and technology demonstrator build which is very cheap in contrast with other 5th gen development.

7. AMCA would benifited from the LCA, and would likely faces less problems as compare to LCA.

 

[anon45]

Really? Ok, here goes. The F-35 is a case of massive over ambition to develop one base airframe that can be adapted to replace half-dozen specialized jets. The result is an expensive jack-of-all-trades, but a master of none.

One of the main problems in the development of the F-35 is the delay in the creation of software Block2 system, responsible for the overall control of the combat capabilities of the aircraft, in particular the data links and live-weapon firing system. The worst deficiencies were found in the Block 2B's navigation and accuracy software aspects. These software problems slowed weapons integration and flight-testing, and with it the entire aircraft's development.

The Block2 also has issues with the accuracy of fire, radar, passive sensors, the ‘friend or foe’ recognition system and the electro-optical guidance targets for attacks.

The F-35 program is expected to miss a deadline for releasing the Block 3F software upgrade. Missing the deadline will likely mean that the F-35 won't be ready for its July 2017 deadline. And you say batches have already been delivered to countries when it's not even fully ops as yet?

Expected to miss the deadline by who?
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...o-deliver-final-four-ioc-f-35bs-by-30-413814/

She is also wholly committed to delivering every capability that was promised for Block 3F, which is currently in integration and testing. That statement comes despite talk of weapons and capabilities “slipping” from Block 3F to Block 4 – a configuration that is being defined right now and will be delivered in increments from about 2019 through to 2025.

“None are slipping out of 3F,” she says. “We’re doing them all. We’re now in full integration and test, we’re not building [Block 3F] software anymore.”

The Block 3F software is already completed, its in integration and bug testing, why are you surprised or angry
that bugs were found in the bug testing phase?

The F-35 software contains MILLIONS of lines of code. If you really expect that sort of software to come out picture perfect on the first go, you are not being realistic, and initial problems with code are all part of the standard software development cycle.

Show me any product with so many lines of code that came out initially perfect.

This software is core to the sensor fusion concept, it would have had the same teething troubles if the F-35 was dedicated air superiority or a dedicated bomber, and the problems, as with all problems, are expected to be smoothed out in development and IOC. Development is the current stage of the program.

Yes batches have been delivered because pilots need to train obviously. as obviously, the software will be upgraded as it is scheduled to be delivered..

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...kheed-martin-delivers-45-f-35s-2015/77705172/

The development has been on schedule as of the re-baseline in 2011. The F-35 delivered the expected amount of F-35's in 2015.

In addition, there is some deviation in the F-35 flight control system, making it impossible for aerial combat at certain angles, reducing the maneuverability of the fighter. And that means its far below par for WVR dog fights.

Actual pilots say otherwise
http://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/kampfly/2015/06/30/dogfight-og-f-35/
https://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/kampfly/2015/11/20/a-fly-f-35-erfaringer-fra-den-forste-uka/
http://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/ka...-35-in-a-dogfight-what-have-i-learned-so-far/

The author of this post, Major Morten «Dolby» Hanche, has more than 2200 hours behind him in the F-16, he is a U.S. Navy Test Pilot School graduate, and on 10 November 2015 he became the first Norwegian to fly the F-35. He now serves as an instructor and as the Assistant Weapons Officer with the 62nd Fighter Squadron at Luke Air Force Base in Arizona.

In addition to these drawbacks, the fighter revealed a number of problems with the helmet-mounted display, which should display the important information about the course of the flight. The cost of a helmet edition is estimated at 400 thousand dollars, but it does not provide a clear image in the dark. Lol!

Because those problems will still exist in the final version of those helmets

You know what? I think you actually got this from Sputnik!

http://sputniknews.com/military/20160207/1034377869/us-fighter-jet-flaws.html

You probably shouldn't use a Russian government paper alone to get an idea of the state of the F-35 program.

Interestingly enough your sputnik article fails to mention that the problem occurred in an F-35C which has the latest IOC date. Nowhere does it mention that it is a problem for the F-35 A or B.

If that is not enough, the F-35 has a number of components that require maintenance more often than desired.

According to the Pentagon report, which is available on the net, all versions have reliability issues with their avionics processors, landing gear tires, thermal management systems, ejection seat assemblies, cockpit display electronics unit, helmet mounted display units, seat survival kits, igniter-spark in the turbine engines, and on-board oxygen generating systems.

That's the F-35 for you! That's why I called it a lemon! Thank you!

According to your definition of a lemon, all American aircraft are lemons, because they all experienced issues in their development phases.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/reliability-of-f-16-jets-questioned/

http://archive.gao.gov/f0102/114371.pdf

http://www.gao.gov/products/T-NSIAD-94-176

http://www.gao.gov/assets/210/204655.pdf

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ter-deliveries-due-quality-problems/73871500/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale