4th Country To Deploy Stealth Fighters, How Does India’s AMCA Stack-Up Against China’s J-20 Mighty Dragon?

[applesauce]

When China and the USA deploy 6th gen aircraft, wouldn't AMCA just get advertised as a 6th gen as well (and get thrown back into development hell)?

of course not lol

They will call it 6.5 gen

just like how they're calling their 5th gen effort --> 5.5 gen or 5+ gen despite having absolutely nothing except some cgi to show for it.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

View attachment 825900

I like the rocket booster concept at back

 

[Joe Shearer]

the PAF decoupling avionics from the airframe which is now yielding dividends. In addition, they basically stuffed the F-16 cadre into the project to do an information and design requirements dump on Chengdu. Going as far as to provide F-16 throttle and stick controls for the Chinese to replicate ergonomics on.

Downright brilliant.

 

[Joe Shearer]

My guess is that HAL had similar inputs from M2k folks because the poor jet would be a greater mess if you had Mig lifers providing design cues. There is dassault somewhere but i take the word on indigenous design.

This was before my time, but I understand there was a formal interaction on airframe issues, not a contract per se, but there were discussions. It was also a time when delta was sexy; many people thought that way, some were successful, some were less successful. The wind tunnel was available fairly early, not right from inception but early enough, so it is not clear why the canards didn't come in as part of the original design.

What was completely unique and indigenous was the flight control laws. It was partly developed in collaboration with Lockheed Martin, until that morning when the engineers were locked out, and not allowed to retrieve their own notes and papers, and everything was done from scratch back in India. The airframe was discussed, the engine was a disaster, and everyone knew it, the AESA was pure miscommunication, as there was a superb team of radar specialists who could have done the miniaturisation five years ago if the left hand had known what the right hand was doing. The policy on weapons was never clear to me; perhaps others understood it better. In any case, in my shop, we never dealt with weapons. That was entirely an HAL matter (for the Air Force; the Navy had a brilliant very low profile organisation doing that exclusively).

the PAF decoupling avionics from the airframe which is now yielding dividends.

Afterthoughts - there was no earthly reason why we could not have done just the same. Perhaps reason dawned late; after all, this is basically what was done with the SU 27 avionics. More on DM.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Either way, this jet should have been deployed in the hundreds by now even if it was with just Derby’s and Pythons to prevent poor IAF guys having to take a noisy Mig up in the air.

This was the whole reason for the project in the first place.

One thing that was common between the JF-17 and MKI.. screens that shut off mid flight.

Not us. We were taken off the project mid-way through when it was thought that there was a great deal of money to be earned, and there were questions why a joint venture should get the work.

This is a work culture, to buy commercial grade, COTS, instead of Mil standards.

When the air traffic control system for the B'lore air port was bid for, it went to a retired fighter pilot through the fighter pilot Mafia, and he executed it on MS Windows and C, where every single equivalent overseas project in ATC was in hard real time O/S and language.

Which would have been fine since the Arabs do this as well except then the cultural “financial sensibility” when you realize the price tag of what you want takes over and at the end you spend 15 years(when did the MMRCA start?) deciding what and when to buy while your primary threat is able to eventually scrounge up a comparable platform anyway because you gave it all the time in the world.

Happens EVERY time.

The engine is the biggie here. These projects need tens of billions in investment hence why the US and China can come up with them.

Safran.

 

[Goritoes]

I did not state corruption regarding the Tejas - incompetence yes…especially in project management @Joe Shearer

Ah sorry my bad I must've mixed that.

 

[ayesha.a]

Without a defined engine?
Maybe they stuck with the F-404

F-414 for the first few batches; and an ambitious program for an engine co-developed with Safran, for subsequent batches. The former is a certainty, the latter remains to be seen.

 

[ayesha.a]

Is this supposed to be a comedy thread?

India has no ability at this time to even build a truly indigenous 4th gen fighter, let alone a 5th gen one.

The Tejas is flying in squadron service. That is well and truly a 4th gen jet, if not better. A truly 5th gen jet will take time.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

LCA provided good help to build and developed infrastructure from the scratch.

Pakistan is yet to start from scratch and if they will be able to make and develop even trainer aircraft in the coming years then I and Indians will be ready to take criticism from Pakistani friends.

Jf 17 -everything facilitated by china from scratch to development & testing in CHina. this is a bitter truth..

when India made the Nilgiri-class frigates (with help from UK), nobody thought that India will be making A aircraft career within 2 decades.. destroyers and frigates within 1 decade.

You must build inhouse - for example Sweden Gripen aircraft.... it is also made with Imported parts as same as Hal Tejas..... But of course, HAL Tejas is easy to target.

Now 10 years, a good outcome is waiting for the Indian aero industry.

 

[thinkingcap81]

LCA provided good help to build and developed infrastructure from the scratch.

Pakistan is yet to start from scratch and if they will be able to make and develop even trainer aircraft in the coming years then I and Indians will be ready to take criticism from Pakistani friends.

Jf 17 -everything facilitated by china from scratch to development & testing in CHina. this is a bitter truth..

when India made the Nilgiri-class frigates (with help from UK), nobody thought that India will be making A aircraft career within 2 decades.. destroyers and frigates within 1 decade.

You must build inhouse - for example Sweden Gripen aircraft.... it is also made with Imported parts as same as Hal Tejas..... But of course, HAL Tejas is easy to target.

Now 10 years, a good outcome is waiting for the Indian aero industry.

Constructive and worthy criticism is fine even if Pak has not yet embarked meaningfully on actual fighter aircraft development, but most of the comments are in poor taste.

 

[Falcon34]

Sure.

Just bend over and show papa where it hurts most

Sure.

Just bend over and show papa where it hurts most.

My f*****g dik it's been hurting for quite some while could really use papa's hand

 

[Falcon34]

Constructive and worthy criticism is fine even if Pak has not yet embarked meaningfully on actual fighter aircraft development, but most of the comments are in poor taste.

Really name a single critical indian product on tejas. Radar? Engine? Jamming pod? Avionics? if importing everything is building in house capacity than we have been doing better than in this regard.

 

[Black Tornado]

AMCA is still stuck at the design stage.

So this article by Euroasian Times is a complete waste of time.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1501612421869277188

 

[prokion]

EOTS of AMCA to begin flight testing - Alpha Defense

By Subodh Sharma and Aman Routray The stealth fighters carry a unique type of sensor that allows them to target the enemy in a passive mode i.e without emitting any radiation. This further ensures the radar cross-section of the fighter jet does not get la-di-da. This unique sensor is called ETOS...

alphadefense.in

eots testing

Really name a single critical indian product on tejas. Radar? Engine? Jamming pod? Avionics? if importing everything is building in house capacity than we have been doing better than in this regard.

I guess you are still stuck in the 1990s or dont know how to read.

 

[Joe Shearer]

My f*****g dik it's been hurting for quite some while could really use papa's hand

I'm sure it does. Ask papa to use the tongs and take it out of you where the Sun don't shine. If that doesn't work, tell him to use a fine-tooth saw, and pretend having it that length is in fashion. You'll be fine.

Ah sorry my bad I must've mixed that.

We both forgot to read his memo. When he's being sardonic, I've known strong men climb trees and stay there till he forgets.

I and Indians will be ready to take criticism from Pakistani friends.

We'll take it anyway and write it off to, uh, other reasons but technical.

Jf 17 -everything facilitated by china from scratch to development & testing in CHina. this is a bitter truth.

There is some information given about user inputs and involvement, that will help, if adopted and paralleled.

when India made the Nilgiri-class frigates (with help from UK), nobody thought that India will be making A aircraft career within 2 decades.. destroyers and frigates within 1 decade.

The Navy is doing VERY well with its planning and production, but needs help from industry to produce at a faster rate. They can plan, but someone has to produce. Mazagon, Goa, Kochi and GRSE really need to up their game one order of magnitude.