1971 war: Western front maps (US Army study)

[Armchair]

@Signalian

Dear, do please let me know in case something remains unanswered.....we can discuss it in the above referenced thread.....

I actually read the post and disagreed but didn't want to say anything. Firstly, the presumptions are wrong IMHO.

1. In 1965, the initiator of the war was Pakistan. Going back to status quo meant India was able to defend from the aggressor. Meaning a Pakistani defeat.
2. Indian plan was not to take over both east and west Pakistan. Indian Plan was to take over East Pakistan, which they militarily did. While also gaining ground in the West. Which was surprising for them and a bonus. Some of this land they still hold. Again, Pakistan was defeated.

If one is unable to see their defeats, one can never be victorious as they cannot rectify the fundamental problems. This is an insight into our psychology and our societies.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Interesting to know that India advanced upto Marala headworks in retaliation to Chhamb offensive.

Do please point out the map.

 

[Signalian]

@Signalian

Dear, do please let me know in case something remains unanswered.....we can discuss it in the above referenced thread.....

I was looking at which PA formations met their objectives and which couldn't.

I actually read the post and disagreed but didn't want to say anything. Firstly, the presumptions are wrong IMHO.

1. In 1965, the initiator of the war was Pakistan. Going back to status quo meant India was able to defend from the aggressor. Meaning a Pakistani defeat.
2. Indian plan was not to take over both east and west Pakistan. Indian Plan was to take over East Pakistan, which they militarily did. While also gaining ground in the West. Which was surprising for them and a bonus. Some of this land they still hold. Again, Pakistan was defeated.

If one is unable to see their defeats, one can never be victorious as they cannot rectify the fundamental problems. This is an insight into our psychology and our societies.

You can come out openly regarding your disagreement, i would like to know which PA formations met their objectives and which failed.

 

[PanzerKiel]

I was looking at which PA formations met their objectives and which couldn't.

There are many formations who achieved their assigned missions, despite public info to the contrary.

 

[ebrahym]

Orange lines represent Indian advances, green Pakistani.

Interesting to know that India advanced upto Marala headworks in retaliation to Chhamb offensive.

yet Pakistan still occupies chamb but India is nowhere close to Maralla .....
these maps are mere wishful at best misleading at worst ....... these are merely initial thrusts...... in battle of kursk Nazi germany managed to penetrate 10km into soviet lines before finally being withdrawn ....... kutch, fazlika etc were mere initial thrust and the territory ceded was unimportant and hard to defend i.e strategic retreat to an area much more easily defendible....... the operation can not be considered conclusive since the never reached thwir military conclusion ..... thanks to fall of dhakka in the east..... had they been allowed to stretch the results would have been much different

I actually read the post and disagreed but didn't want to say anything. Firstly, the presumptions are wrong IMHO.

1. In 1965, the initiator of the war was Pakistan. Going back to status quo meant India was able to defend from the aggressor. Meaning a Pakistani defeat.
2. Indian plan was not to take over both east and west Pakistan. Indian Plan was to take over East Pakistan, which they militarily did. While also gaining ground in the West. Which was surprising for them and a bonus. Some of this land they still hold. Again, Pakistan was defeated.

If one is unable to see their defeats, one can never be victorious as they cannot rectify the fundamental problems. This is an insight into our psychology and our societies.

grossly incorrect ..... in 1965 pakistan crossed ceasefire line which is not internationally recognized and is not recognized by either Pakistan and India as well ...... the initiation of war was when India crossed International border out of desperation because they were unable to thwart an offensive in the north ....... which Pakistan successfully thwarted......... 1965 was a noted Pakistani victory by all major accounts...... only three accounts from that timeframe declared Pakistan not an overall victor .... moat others are recent ........

as for 1971, the only major territorial gains were made by Pakistan in chambb .... an area they still hold ... refer to my initial comments on this topic

I actually read the post and disagreed but didn't want to say anything. Firstly, the presumptions are wrong IMHO.

1. In 1965, the initiator of the war was Pakistan. Going back to status quo meant India was able to defend from the aggressor. Meaning a Pakistani defeat.
2. Indian plan was not to take over both east and west Pakistan. Indian Plan was to take over East Pakistan, which they militarily did. While also gaining ground in the West. Which was surprising for them and a bonus. Some of this land they still hold. Again, Pakistan was defeated.

If one is unable to see their defeats, one can never be victorious as they cannot rectify the fundamental problems. This is an insight into our psychology and our societies.

furthermore, it is well noted that indian plan was to neutralize both flanks ..... they could not because eastern front demanded a heavy deployment ..... according to sam manekshaw ..... almost 15-1..... which is why they could not make any considerable strike in the west.....

 

[Jackdaws]

There are many formations who achieved their assigned missions, despite public info to the contrary.

If I remember correctly, the PA captured Hussainiwala

 

[Mighty Lion]

as for 1971, the only major territorial gains were made by Pakistan in chambb .... an area they still hold ... refer to my initial comments on this topic

Indian territorial gains in GB were far larger in area.
Also since Marala was not across CFL they had to be returned unlike GB areas captured or chhamb which were across CFL.

 

[Ghost 125]

yet Pakistan still occupies chamb but India is nowhere close to Maralla .....
these maps are mere wishful at best misleading at worst ....... these are merely initial thrusts...... in battle of kursk Nazi germany managed to penetrate 10km into soviet lines before finally being withdrawn ....... kutch, fazlika etc were mere initial thrust and the territory ceded was unimportant and hard to defend i.e strategic retreat to an area much more easily defendible....... the operation can not be considered conclusive since the never reached thwir military conclusion ..... thanks to fall of dhakka in the east..... had they been allowed to stretch the results would have been much different


grossly incorrect ..... in 1965 pakistan crossed ceasefire line which is not internationally recognized and is not recognized by either Pakistan and India as well ...... the initiation of war was when India crossed International border out of desperation because they were unable to thwart an offensive in the north ....... which Pakistan successfully thwarted......... 1965 was a noted Pakistani victory by all major accounts...... only three accounts from that timeframe declared Pakistan not an overall victor .... moat others are recent ........

as for 1971, the only major territorial gains were made by Pakistan in chambb .... an area they still hold ... refer to my initial comments on this topic


furthermore, it is well noted that indian plan was to neutralize both flanks ..... they could not because eastern front demanded a heavy deployment ..... according to sam manekshaw ..... almost 15-1..... which is why they could not make any considerable strike in the west.....

All the territories on recognised border were returned by both sides, however territories on LOC were retained by both sides...in that case too we lost more areas than India, we gained chamb but lost areas in Kargil and Tortuk sectors.

 

[ebrahym]

Indian territorial gains in GB were far larger in area.
Also since Marala was not across CFL they had to be returned unlike GB areas captured or chhamb which were across CFL.

again barren unprotected lands with one or two villages......... ceasefire line is precursor to LOC . . maralla is across international border ....... chamb is the largest territorial change since 1948..... indian advances in gb are nowhere near that ..... even then it is mostly non strategic land much like most of siachen...... which is why Indians have been practically begging pakistan that they will leave the territory unilaterally if Pakistan accepts their claim ...... as cost of operation for India is much more than for Pakistan as India sit on most of it ...... mostly uselessly....

All the territories on recognised border were returned by both sides, however territories on LOC were retained by both sides...in that case too we lost more areas than India, we gained chamb but lost areas in Kargil and Tortuk sectors.

we lost territories that were largely unprotected ....... and are of little strategic importance ..... sure it gave them a route to siachen but the strategic importance of siachen is also questionable at best


Siachen is not considered as a territorial change because no one controlled it prior to the incident and it was largely unclaimed other than mountaneering campaigns by Paksitan

 

[Mighty Lion]

chamb is the largest territorial change since 1948..... indian advances in gb are nowhere near that ..

Wrong. In Chhamb Pakistan got only 119 sq km whereas in GB we got 800+ sq km.

 

[ebrahym]

Wrong. In Chhamb Pakistan got only 119 sq km whereas in GB we got 800+ sq km.

plz read my initial posts.......
area gained in gb is nowhere close to area gained by Pakistan in chambb....... the strategic value ,economic and political value of chambb is far bigger than any area gain in gb or even in siachen ..... as a matter of fact ...... occupying siachen is economically counter productive ...... negates even little if any strategic value it offers ........ furthermore , the area acquired by India was either lightly protected or not at all protected at all ..... contrary to areas gained by Pakistan even in fazlika and other areas.........

not wanting to expand this discussion further, i would reiterate that all these gains were not at all conclusive as in the western front , these were mere initial thrusts which were never followed through..... hence the military conclusion is impossible to withdraw....

Wrong. In Chhamb Pakistan got only 119 sq km whereas in GB we got 800+ sq km.

furthermore ...... territory in mountainous terrain projects larger proportions than one in relatively flat terrain....... although i would largely agree with your provided statistics