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1962: For anyone who haven't read this...

For the response to post #114:

Thanks guys, I really appreciate that. Now for more reading.

There is a whole lot more about Tibet's history than meets the eye. They went from being warlike to be a pacifist ( kinda) nation after buddism took hold.

How long was Tibet a "protectorate" of China? Was a treaty ever signed with China?

Back in the Tang Dynasty the Tibetans were one of the most badass group of people around and were quite powerful militarily. Even the Tang Emperor Li Shiming was, for a while, a protectorate (yes you read it right) to Tibet but he later launched campaigns against them and helped reverse the roles.

Tibet became Buddhist in between the Tang and Yuan Dynasties and it was during the Yuan Dynasty (the ruler adapted Tibetan Buddhism) that it was officially incorporated into the Chinese Empire. When the Mongolian Yuan Dynasty was overthrown by Zhu Yuan Zhang Tibet became separate from China. Close contacts between the Ming Dynasty and Tibet continued, however. When the Manchu Qing Dynasty succeeded the Ming Tibet became a part of China once more and the control was far stricter than those of the previous dynasties. The Lamas actually had to get approval from the Qing Emperor to assume their position.

During the Republican period that followed Tibet enjoyed virtual autonomy from China due to the fragmentation of China under the various warlords. This changed, however, when China became unified once more under the People's Republic in 1949. At first the Communists were somewhat tolerant of the Lamas and turned a blind eye to practices like serfdom that the party. The Dalai Lama even declared Mao to be a reincarnation of the Buddha Wenshu (a higher god than Dalai himself) when the PLA first entered Tibet. When the Lamas rebelled in 59, however, everything changed and the same policies applied to other Chinese landlords were applied to the lamas as well. Land was divided amongst the peasants and temples became gathering places where Maoist doctrines are preached.
 
Back in the Tang Dynasty the Tibetans were one of the most badass group of people around and were quite powerful militarily. Even the Tang Emperor Li Shiming was, for a while, a protectorate (yes you read it right) to Tibet but he later launched campaigns against them and helped reverse the roles.

Tibet became Buddhist in between the Tang and Yuan Dynasties and it was during the Yuan Dynasty (the ruler adapted Tibetan Buddhism) that it was officially incorporated into the Chinese Empire. When the Mongolian Yuan Dynasty was overthrown by Zhu Yuan Zhang Tibet became separate from China. Close contacts between the Ming Dynasty and Tibet continued, however. When the Manchu Qing Dynasty succeeded the Ming Tibet became a part of China once more and the control was far stricter than those of the previous dynasties. The Lamas actually had to get approval from the Qing Emperor to assume their position.

During the Republican period that followed Tibet enjoyed virtual autonomy from China due to the fragmentation of China under the various warlords. This changed, however, when China became unified once more under the People's Republic in 1949. At first the Communists were somewhat tolerant of the Lamas and turned a blind eye to practices like serfdom that the party. The Dalai Lama even declared Mao to be a reincarnation of the Buddha Wenshu (a higher god than Dalai himself) when the PLA first entered Tibet. When the Lamas rebelled in 59, however, everything changed and the same policies applied to other Chinese landlords were applied to the lamas as well. Land was divided amongst the peasants and temples became gathering places where Maoist doctrines are preached.

Excellent account. Much better than my own halfass one.
 
THAT is a can of worms. You have to understand what imperial China was back then. It was a utter self-centered and complacent nation that thought there are no places worth living outside of China (or ZhongQuo, the middle kingdom).

What it did require of those heathens in the scrub lands was suzerainty. In return for token fealty and symbolic subservience, it granted generous gifts and if you didn't give it, you can expect an army at your door step to F' thing up. So while China and its emperors could care less about actually running those places and gave it great autonomy, it did consider it to be a part of its control area.

(Just as a side note, this is similar to the treatment that Vietnam recieve over history. IMO Vietnamese are kinda justified in hating China)

So when the Qing dynasty collapsed, and China fragment into De Facto warlord kingdoms, central control was lost, only to be re-establish by the communists in the 50's. Rule since then have been different in that for the first time direct China rule was administered, first through a puppet Dalai Lama, then nakedly by the CCP.

That's right. :tup:

China once envisioned itself as the "centre of the world", and that the whole world followed what is known as "Tian Xia" (All Under Heaven). It's a Confucian thing where there is a formal chain of command.... in which China occupied the centre, and periphery nations like Korea and Japan were considered tributary. The Emperor was at the top, and he was supposedly given authority by Heaven itself.

Tianxia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

China had a very rude awakening when the greatly weakened Qing dynasty was humiliated, first by Westerners, and then most significantly by the so-called "barbarian" Japanese who had become stronger than us.

This "Century of Humiliation", plays very strongly into modern Chinese Nationalist sentiment, and threw the entire Chinese world view into disarray.
 
Back in the Tang Dynasty the Tibetans were one of the most badass group of people around and were quite powerful militarily. Even the Tang Emperor Li Shiming was, for a while, a protectorate (yes you read it right) to Tibet but he later launched campaigns against them and helped reverse the roles.

Tibet became Buddhist in between the Tang and Yuan Dynasties and it was during the Yuan Dynasty (the ruler adapted Tibetan Buddhism) that it was officially incorporated into the Chinese Empire. When the Mongolian Yuan Dynasty was overthrown by Zhu Yuan Zhang Tibet became separate from China. Close contacts between the Ming Dynasty and Tibet continued, however. When the Manchu Qing Dynasty succeeded the Ming Tibet became a part of China once more and the control was far stricter than those of the previous dynasties. The Lamas actually had to get approval from the Qing Emperor to assume their position.

During the Republican period that followed Tibet enjoyed virtual autonomy from China due to the fragmentation of China under the various warlords. This changed, however, when China became unified once more under the People's Republic in 1949. At first the Communists were somewhat tolerant of the Lamas and turned a blind eye to practices like serfdom that the party. The Dalai Lama even declared Mao to be a reincarnation of the Buddha Wenshu (a higher god than Dalai himself) when the PLA first entered Tibet. When the Lamas rebelled in 59, however, everything changed and the same policies applied to other Chinese landlords were applied to the lamas as well. Land was divided amongst the peasants and temples became gathering places where Maoist doctrines are preached.

So why DID the Lamas rebel - I have always been unclear on that.
 
So why DID the Lamas rebel - I have always been unclear on that.

Just my guess, they probably realized this communism thing didn't groove with the Lama landlord system and that their days were numbered if they didn't do something about it.
 
I think most level headed Chinese members here are simply sick and tired of the Free Tibet excrement being hurled by ignorant people everywhere. You have people who couldn't even locate Tibet on a map ranting about "violent oppression by the Chinese government" and "Tibetans are the most peaceful people in the world" when it was obvious that neither was true. I will confess that I myself was a very liberal and pro-west before the Lhasa Riot in 2008. When Western news reports continued to blabber about Chinese oppression when it was in fact Han and Hui (Muslim) Chinese who were being slaughtered by the Tibetan mob (a handful of violent deviants that 99 percent of Tibetans oppose) I was literally sick to my stomach. I finally understood why my parents, who have lived in the U.S. for so long, refused to comply 100% with Western values.

I have a feeling that the Tibetan Independence movement garnered so much popularity here because there is some residual regret towards what was done to the Native Americans here in the states. This is reflected by film (Dance of the Wolf and the famous Sci-Fi upgrade, Avatar) and I think that some people wants to amend for this by ending "injustices" in places like Tibet while many more merely jumped on the bandwago. They, however, don't know that a lot of the cultural destructions in Tibet was in fact caused by the ethnically Tibetan redguard and that premier Zhou Enlai (one of the few clear headed people in the CCP during the cultural revolution) actually helped save most of the temples that we see today. They also neglect how the Tibetans get preferential treatments on the College Entrance Exam (one of the hardest exams ever) and how the government actively preserved Tibetan culture and religion by funding the various monasteries (yes tourism was a major factor). People really needs to get their heads out of the sand and see what the world is really like instead of listening to the media regurgitating the stuff that they want to hear.
 
Just my guess, they probably realized this communism thing didn't groove with the Lama landlord system and that their days were numbered if they didn't do something about it.

Which is ironic since the CCP really didn't intrude upon their exploitation of the serfs until they revolted in 59. How's that for spelling one's own doom.
 
That's right. :tup:

China once envisioned itself as the "centre of the world", and that the whole world followed what is known as "Tian Xia" (All Under Heaven). It's a Confucian thing where there is a formal chain of command.... in which China occupied the centre, and periphery nations like Korea and Japan were considered tributary. The Emperor was at the top, and he was supposedly given authority by Heaven itself.

Tianxia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

China had a very rude awakening when the greatly weakened Qing dynasty was humiliated, first by Westerners, and then most significantly by the so-called "barbarian" Japanese who had become stronger than us.

This "Century of Humiliation", plays very strongly into modern Chinese Nationalist sentiment, and threw the entire Chinese world view into disarray.

I suppose then that China feels like the western world constantly tries to stifle and "box them in". I have heard that sentiment expressed often.

But is that reality today?
 
I think most level headed Chinese members here are simply sick and tired of the Free Tibet excrement being hurled by ignorant people everywhere. You have people who couldn't even locate Tibet on a map ranting about "violent oppression by the Chinese government" and "Tibetans are the most peaceful people in the world" when it was obvious that neither was true. I will confess that I myself was a very liberal and pro-west before the Lhasa Riot in 2008. When Western news reports continued to blabber about Chinese oppression when it was in fact Han and Hui (Muslim) Chinese who were being slaughtered by the Tibetan mob (a handful of violent deviants that 99 percent of Tibetans oppose) I was literally sick to my stomach. I finally understood why my parents, who have lived in the U.S. for so long, refused to comply 100% with Western values.

I have a feeling that the Tibetan Independence movement garnered so much popularity here because there is some residual regret towards what was done to the Native Americans here in the states. This is reflected by film (Dance of the Wolf and the famous Sci-Fi upgrade, Avatar) and I think that some people wants to amend for this by ending "injustices" in places like Tibet while many more merely jumped on the bandwago. They, however, don't know that a lot of the cultural destructions in Tibet was in fact caused by the ethnically Tibetan redguard and that premier Zhou Enlai (one of the few clear headed people in the CCP during the cultural revolution) actually helped save most of the temples that we see today. They also neglect how the Tibetans get preferential treatments on the College Entrance Exam (one of the hardest exams ever) and how the government actively preserved Tibetan culture and religion by funding the various monasteries (yes tourism was a major factor). People really needs to get their heads out of the sand and see what the world is really like instead of listening to the media regurgitating the stuff that they want to hear.

better marketing than the CCP?
 
^^^ Not so much as box them in but leaving them out of the group, like outcasts.

Many chinese feel that the west is not interested or bothered to know about them more. A bit like what the last chinese imperial dynasty had in terms of their attitudes.
 
I suppose then that China feels like the western world constantly tries to stifle and "box them in". I have heard that sentiment expressed often.

But is that reality today?

Yes, nowthe Chinese people do not believe that the West, because to see enough.
 
第十四世达赖喇嘛作的毛主席颂


(中)毛主席(右一)第十四世达赖喇嘛(左一)第十世班禅额尔德尼


毛主席颂

——实语祈祷无坏常乐赞文

第十四世达赖喇嘛造 法尊法师译

  祖国伟大领袖中央人民政府毛主席,广大微妙福德所生之转轮圣王也。余久已蓄愿撰文赞颂以祈祷长寿无疆,事业宏广。适有内蒙甘珠寺葛喇藏噶根于去岁远道寄礼嘱撰,恰符私愿。因写此篇以应之。
  十四世达赖喇嘛昂旺罗桑丹增嘉措书于罗布尔胜福宫。

世间最胜诸圆满,如意降赐三宝尊,
难等无等众吉祥,殊胜光明常照护。
等同大梵世界祖,众敬国王诸德业,
俱胝福感大领袖,普照大地如日升。
圣典宝珠如海潮,充满广大虚空际,
功德自在毛主席,常界不坏愿久住。
保护吾人如慈母,众生欣感铭心髓,
离诸怨敌亲爱心,示和平道愿久住。
广大地上诸疾苦,黑暗拘缚皆解放,
愿施亿善新光明,吉祥胜会皆安慰。
妙业白伞荫三地,常澍清凉和平乐,
美誉金铃徧鸣响,恒旋转于虚空顶。
凶暴怨敌如毒蛇,扰乱恶使弯曲行,
战胜帝国主义者,无畏大鹏力增盛。
无比富乐诸明处,及伏他军工艺等,
希有天趣诸盛事,刹那增盛如大海。
能仁敎轨月珠炬,放照亿善清凉光,
分布悦意香璎珞,顶戴无遮可矜持。
增上意乐云幄中,宣示敎旨如雷鸣,
降澍平等利乐雨,愿无间断护世间。
和平轨如殑伽女,导无边众欢喜事,
人天富乐宝沙流,愿总衽席此大地。
愿此宽广大地上,如天界德转增盛,
伟大世烛恒炽然,经历万岁常光显。
诸佛菩萨慈悲力,白品护世神通力,
成就大仙谛语力,令此善愿皆圆满。
据记载,在第一届全国人民代表大会第一次会议上,达赖喇嘛献给毛两件珍贵礼品,一是镶有毛画像的金边镜框,一是雕花千幅金轮。在画像下用藏汉文写着:“敬爱毛主席,永远跟着您。建设新西藏,建设伟大祖国。”


千幅金轮上方环辐中央镶嵌着明亮宝石,通体金光四射,金轮下方底座镌刻藏汉两种文字铭文:“一九五四年我——达赖喇嘛担任代表出席我国第一届全国人民代表大会时,谨以西藏政教礼俗向我国各族人民的伟大领袖毛主席敬献千幅金轮,藉表无上颂祷”。颂词是:“伟大毛主席,光明如红日,普照各民族,永世照不息,谁敢来侵略,消灭侵略者,确保和平福,十方得光泽。”

《毛主席颂》释:
世间最胜诸圆满,如意降赐三宝尊,难等无等众吉祥,殊胜光明常照护。
能降给世界一切幸福的佛法僧三宝啊!
请用无可比拟的吉祥光辉永不间断地照耀保护我们!
(译者注:第一段按照藏文诗一般的习惯是祈祷三宝的保护,下面才是赞颂毛主席的正文)

等同大梵世界祖,众敬国王诸德业,俱胝福感大领袖,普照大地如日升。
毛主席啊!您的光荣和事业有如创造世界的大梵天和众敬国王!
积聚了无量数的福德才产生了这样的领袖,好像大地上有了照耀一切的太阳!
圣典宝珠如海潮,充满广大虚空际,功德自在毛主席,常界不坏愿久住。
您的著作珍贵如宝珠,丰富有力如同海潮一直达到天空的边际。
荣誉无比的毛主席啊!愿您万寿无疆!
保护吾人如慈母,众生欣感铭心髓,离诸怨敌、亲爱心,示和平道愿久住。
人们都把您当做保护自己的慈母,极其兴奋地把您的相貌描绘下来。愿您永远驻在世间,给我们指示和平的道路!

广大地上诸疾苦,黑暗、拘缚皆解放,愿施亿善新光明,吉祥胜会皆安慰。
大地虽然辽阔,但是黑暗和痛苦的枷锁压得人喘不出气来,是您用新的光芒破除了黑暗,解放了枷锁,人们才能透过气来尽情的欢会。

妙业白伞荫三地,常澍清凉和平乐,美誉金铃徧鸣响,恒旋转於虚空顶。
您的和平事业犹如摩尼白伞,清凉地覆荫着天上、地下、人间。
您的声誉犹如伞上的金铃,永远鸣响,永远在天空的顶上旋转。
凶暴怨敌如毒蛇,扰乱恶使弯曲行,战胜帝国主义者,无畏大鹏力增盛。
我们的敌人——残暴的帝国主义者,有如毒蛇,它是恶魔的使者,蠕蠕地蠢动,您是尅服毒蛇的无畏大鹏,愿您的威力永远不断地增长。
无比富乐诸明处,及伏他军工艺等,希有天趣诸盛事,刹那增盛如大海。
使人民繁荣富强和摧伏敌人武装力量的文化及工业建设,如同大海一般,每一刹那都向上发展,发展得如天国一样地充足圆满。
能仁敎轨月珠炬,放照亿善清凉光,分布悦意香璎珞,顶戴无遮可矜持。
释迦牟尼的善良的宗教好像月明珠的灯放射着万道清凉的光辉,又像放龙脑香的珠鬘,现在我们能毫无障碍地顶戴着它,这是多麽値得骄傲的啊!
增上意乐云幄中,宣示敎旨如雷鸣,降澍平等利乐雨,愿无间断护世间。
您的意愿比如云聚,号召比如雷鸣,从这裏面不断地降着无私地润泽世界的甘霖。
和平轨如殑伽女,导无边众欢喜事,人天富乐宝沙流,愿总衽席此大地。
恒河能把宝沙冲积得充满大地,和平正义能引来无边众生的喜悦。
愿此宽广大地上,如天界德转增盛,伟大世烛恒炽然,经历万岁常光显。
愿人间逐步变得如天堂般的幸福!
愿世界的火炬伟大的领袖千秋万岁永远炽然!

(译者注:颂的正文到此完了,下面一段是对这个颂文本身如愿实现的祈祷)
诸佛菩萨慈悲力,白品护世神通力,成就大仙谛语力,令此善愿皆圆满。
愿佛菩萨的慈悲、护法神的神通、成就大仙的眞实语这三种力量使这一切善良的愿望都能实现!


DID Lama XIV Song for Chairman Mao


(Middle), Chairman Mao (right) 14th World DID Lama (left), the amount of the first Panchen Lama


Chairman Mao Song

- Pray for no real bad language text Sheung Lok Chan

DID Lama XIV made France the world respected Master Translation

Motherland and the great leader Chairman Mao and the Central People's Government, the majority of children born of subtle chakravartin Ford also. I wish the author had long build tribute to pray for longevity and no end, the cause of Wang Film. Suitable for a temple in Inner Mongolia Ge Gan-chu Tibetan Karma La rooted in age all the way to send gift Well essays, just like the private operator. Write Cipian to be the result.
DID Lama XIV Ang Mong sutra written by Gyatso in Robl Fu Sheng Gong.

Various world's most complete victory, wishful down giving treasures respect,
No such difficulties in the public and good light sacred regular care.
Brahman in the world the same ancestors, King of all German industry, public respect,
Ju Zhi Fu feeling great leaders, such as the rising and shine on the earth.
Sacred Baozhu such as tide, full of vast emptiness occasion
Chairman Mao merit itself is often not a bad sector is willing to Kuju.
I like to protect mother, feeling beings Yan Ming Xin Sui,
Lizhuyuandi dear heart, said Dogan Hisasumi peace.
Majority of the ground all suffering, darkness arrests were tied liberation
Billion in new facilities like good light, Ji Xiangsheng will all comfort.
Wonderful white umbrellas shade the three industries, often Shu cool peace music,
Reputation as a golden bell ringing times, constant rotation on the vanity top.
Violent Yuandi such as snakes, disturbing evil to bend line,
Defeat the imperialists, and without fear Dapeng force by Sheng.
Zhu Ming Chu extremely rich music, and underlying his military crafts
Greek interest in various events one day, moment by Sheng, such as the sea.
Buddhist beads on teaching track torch, let cool and good according to one hundred million light
Yue Ying Luo Hong distribution means, Ding Dai no cover can be reserved.
Tent by the Italian music in the cloud, and declared aims, such as teaching thunder
Shu equal Tetra rain down, like continuous care world.
Peace track, such as Jing gamma women, leading infinite joy public affairs,
Po Sha Tin Fu Yue people flow, like the total seats of junction of this earth.
Like this broad land, such as heaven Tak Shing increase by transferring,
Shi Heng Chi Ran great candle, long live the experience was often light.
Buddhas and Bodhisattvas mercy force, protecting the world supernatural forces of white goods,
Achievement Daisen meaning language ability, so good like this are successful.
It is recorded in the First National People's Congress meeting, the Dalai Lama dedicated to hair two precious gifts, Phnom Penh, one set with framed portraits of Mao, one carved 1000 Kingland. Under the portrait with the Tibetan and Chinese read: "Beloved Chairman Mao, always follow you. Building a new Tibet to build the great motherland."


1000 Kingland radiation above the central ring set with bright stones, quintana golden light, Wheel base below the inscription engraved on both Tibetan and Chinese: "1954 I - attended by representatives of the Dalai Lama as the First National People of China Congress, like political and religious customs of Tibet to China's great leader Chairman Mao, the people of all ethnic groups presented 1000 Kingland, the borrowing supreme Song of Prayer. " Song words are: "the great Chairman Mao, such as red light, shine the nation, according to eternal rest, who would dare to invade, destroy the aggressors, to ensure peace and blessing, the ten were shiny."

"Ode to Chairman Mao" interpretation:
Various world's most complete victory, wishful down give Sambo respect, no such difficulties in the public and good light sacred regular care.
Can drop all the happiness to the world of Buddhism Sangha ah!
Please use the unparalleled good fortune to shine bright always-on protection of us!
(Translator's Note: first paragraph of the poem in accordance with Tibetan custom is to pray for the protection of Sambo, the following is the tribute to Chairman Mao's body)

Brahman in the world the same ancestors, King of all German industry, public respect, a sense of great leaders Ju Zhi Fu, shines like the rising and the earth.
Chairman Mao ah! Your glory and to create the world's largest enterprise like Brahma and all the King King!
Ford accumulated infinity, only when such a leader, like the land of the sun has been shining all!
Sacred Baozhu such as tide, full of vast emptiness occasion merit Chairman Mao freely, often not a bad sector is willing to Kuju.
Works such as the Pearl of your precious, rich and dynamic as the tide has been marginal to the sky.
Incomparable honor of Chairman Mao ah! Wish you Wanshouwujiang!
I like to protect mother, feeling beings Yan Ming Xin Sui, Lizhuyuandi, dear heart, said Dogan Hisasumi peace.
You people are regarded as a protection of their mother, very excited to put your picture looks down. I wish you always stationed in the world, and indicate to us the path to peace!

Majority of the ground all suffering, darkness, arrested all tied liberation, like Shi million good new light, Ji Xiangsheng will all comfort.
Although the vast land, but the weight of the shackles of darkness and suffering of people to breathe without venting is your break with a new light to the darkness, liberation of the yoke, people can enjoy the Huan through the air to be.

Wonderful white umbrellas shade the three industries, often cool and peaceful music Shu, Jin Ling reputation all over the ring, constant rotation on the vanity top.
Your peace is like Mani white umbrella, cool shade to cover the heaven and on earth, earth.
Your reputation is like an umbrella on a golden bell, always ringing the top of the rotation in the sky forever.
Violent Yuandi such as poisonous snakes, so disturbing evil bent row, beat the imperialists, fearless force by Sheng Mirs.
Our enemies - the brutal imperialists, like snakes, it is the devil's messenger, squirming in the bank, you are courageous to overcome the serpent Dapeng, the power will always wish you continued to grow.
Zhu Ming Chu extremely rich music, and underlying his military crafts, the Greek have fun all day event, moment by Sheng, such as the sea.
Enemies of the people prosperous and the armed forces Cuifu cultural and industrial construction, as the sea generally, every moment is to move upwards, as the kingdom of heaven as to have developed sufficient satisfactory.
Buddhist beads on teaching track torch, let cool and good according to 100 million light distribution means Yue Luo, Hong Ying, Ding Dai no cover can be reserved.
Buddha's kind of religion seems to light radiation on Pearl cool with 10,000 brilliant, and like the beads put Dipterocarp Man, now we can wear it without any obstacle to the top, it is valuable to be proud of how ah!
Tent by the Italian music in the cloud, and declared aims, such as teaching thunder, rain falling Shu equal Tetra Pak, is willing to protect world without interruption.
For example Yunju your wishes, calling such as thunder, which continued to drop from the world selflessly moist rain.
Peace track, such as Jing gamma women, leading infinite joy public affairs, human Po Sha Tin Fu Lok flow, like the total seats of junction of this earth.
Ganges alluvial sand can be filled with earth Po, peace and justice can lead to boundless joy of living beings.
Like this broad land, such as the increase by transferring Shing Tak heaven, the great world candle constant Chiran, long live the experience was often light.
Gradually become willing to earth as heavenly happiness!
Willing to torch the world Long live the great leader of future generations will never Chiran!

(Translator's Note: the body of this song finished, the following paragraph is the text itself, Ru Yuan Chung achieve this prayer)
Buddhas and Bodhisattvas mercy force, protecting the world of white goods supernatural power, achievement Daisen meaning language ability, so good like this are successful.
Like the Buddha's compassion, protect the law of God supernatural power, achievement of which accords with real language Daisen power to make all three wishes were good!
 
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